Army Guy Posted June 11, 2009 Author Report Posted June 11, 2009 (edited) I'm sure bruising can be expected. From your post can we all assume that you've actually seen the evidence on physical injuries that led to this investigation? Thats the problem, nobody had, the alligations were made from some old Military police reports, which like a medical examiners reports would record any and all marks that are not normal....it is from these reports that the prof made his alligations...once made they took a life of thier own, and soon there was presure place upon the government thru many different venues to have this investagated.... However what most fail to account for is that these injuries are from combat, and not some police station downtown where criminals have rights....In combat, our nations soldiers job, while blunt as it is ...is to close with and destroy the enemy....As long as we remain within the walls of our national laws, inter-national laws and the conventions Canada has signed, none of these alligations should see any light of day....and a wall of Canadians should have stood up and said so....and any thing less is extremily harmful to moral of those very soldiers we have tasked with this mission....And while i agree it should have been investagated, just not the way it was played out in Canada with polictical parties and media already judging those that we trust with the defence of our nation.... And while i truily don't believe that all Canadians are waiting in the wings for our forces to screw up, there was enough of them or so it seems to push this thru until it was a major national issue...which concerns alot of soldiers, and confuses alot of soldiers, has our trust, respect, with the public been eroded, as our very future depends on it...and vice versa. Edited June 11, 2009 by Army Guy Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Peter F Posted June 11, 2009 Report Posted June 11, 2009 Yes, it can make a difference. There's this little ol' thing called morale, and having these allegations bandied about is bad for morale. As harsh as it sounds, if the root of it was some bruising, then, no, there was no justification for an investigation which called into question the honor and ethics of our soldiers. Like I said, do we want to win this war, or just turn it into another Pearsonian photo op? I want the soldiers to go in there, kill, maim and frighten as many Taliban as they can, and eventually bring some resolution. Truth be told I don't think the morale of the CAF is as fragile as you think it is. That the morale of the soldiers cracks because somebody makes allegations is rediculous. Hell, I can make an allegation that our soldiers murder civilians every day and the reason folks would not investigate such allegations is that it is based on zero facts from somebody who knows zilch about what our soldiers are doing. Would the RCR collapse into a heap of jello because of that allegation? No. It wouldn't. You want to discount the military powers that be taking the profs allegations seriously - because they were based on some sort of actual evidence - you go right ahead. I think the boffins and DNDHQ did the right thing, for once. And another thing, it aint us civilians that make or break soldiers morale. That is made or broke by the combined action of the enemy and the CAF command, officers and NCO's. Allegations ruing soldiers morale! Bullshit. Quote A bayonet is a tool with a worker at both ends
canfan Posted June 11, 2009 Report Posted June 11, 2009 Thats the problem, nobody had, the alligations were made from some old Military police reports, which like a medical examiners reports would record any and all marks that are not normal....it is from these reports that the prof made his alligations...once made they took a life of thier own, and soon there was presure place upon the government thru many different venues to have this investagated.... I just don't see how this could've been properly handled any other way. As you say many different groups wanted an answer and the DND wasn't providing 1 right away. There was some suspicious things about the injuries mostly that they were very similar between the 3 detainees. Combat was 1 explanation but because they were so similar intentional harm was also an option. The investigation cleared the air and found that nothing wrong happened. There will always be people against the armed forces but in this case it wasn't a completely unfounded investigation. How would you have handled it? Ignoring the questions would've undermined our forces here and in Afghanistan more than having an investigation. Quote
Army Guy Posted June 12, 2009 Author Report Posted June 12, 2009 Truth be told I don't think the morale of the CAF is as fragile as you think it is. That the morale of the soldiers cracks because somebody makes allegations is rediculous. Hell, I can make an allegation that our soldiers murder civilians every day and the reason folks would not investigate such allegations is that it is based on zero facts from somebody who knows zilch about what our soldiers are doing. Would the RCR collapse into a heap of jello because of that allegation? No. It wouldn't. Then lets put it in the right context shall we, RCR just finsihed buring 11 of thier comrads, have well over 80 lying in hospital beds, some in critical condition...The remainder of the Bn returns to KAf from the op weeks later....only to have this incident smeared all over the media.... Now some Prof who has never even seen a battlefield, let alone know what it is like reads a few paper reports and decides we mistreated prisoners....Kind of like saying the 76 Canada Russia game was faked, Canada had cheated to get the win... what do you think moral did. I was there and i can tell you it was a slap in the face....we all felt let down by the Canadian public...it was a kick in the nuts, to those that had given so much, during that op.... So did the RCR's collaspe into a heap of jello....NO, did we manage to continue our mission yes, did we like being accused NO, it pissed us off, it brought moral down.... And another thing, it aint us civilians that make or break soldiers morale. That is made or broke by the combined action of the enemy and the CAF command, officers and NCO's.Allegations ruing soldiers morale! Bullshit. Soldiers moral is effected by many things including what civilians do, don't kid yourself....moral is a fragile thing when you add it to all the other emotions that a soldier goes thru in the run of a day...such as watching 11 of your comrads one after another get loaded onto a herc,.or walk into the hospital ward to see a buddy and see 80 plus soldiers lined up in beds it takes a toll...last thing you need is to turn the TV on and hear someone whinning that a serious of bruises may have been attributed to abuse...thats BS, all we wanted to do was reach out and choke the shit out of the prof....drag his ass down to the battlefield and show him a few of his darling prisoners....then show him a hospital ward full of wounded Canadian soldiers where bruises are the least of thier worries.... The whole thing gave the impression that we where not trusted, to carry out our jobs in a professional manner any more....so it di effect moral...In our jobs professionalism is everything to us.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Army Guy Posted June 12, 2009 Author Report Posted June 12, 2009 just don't see how this could've been properly handled any other way. As you say many different groups wanted an answer and the DND wasn't providing 1 right away. There was some suspicious things about the injuries mostly that they were very similar between the 3 detainees. Combat was 1 explanation but because they were so similar intentional harm was also an option. The investigation cleared the air and found that nothing wrong happened. There will always be people against the armed forces but in this case it wasn't a completely unfounded investigation. How would you have handled it? Ignoring the questions would've undermined our forces here and in Afghanistan more than having an investigation Can anyone honestly tell me this was entirely about prisoner abuse, and had nothing to do with getting media attention for a group or person....for those with an agenda this military investagation will mean squat, another means to drag this out in the media by crying foul letting the military investagate itself..... 3 detainees out of the hundrds that where taken....and only 3 had similar injuries.....and that was enough to launch an investagation....no i believe that was enough for the media to run with a trumped up story....because it sold copies....it's OK to shoot the little bastards, but don't bruise them....is the message we got....what message did you get ? That some soldiers where beating the shit of unarmed prisoners like Somolia, tell me that did not cross your mind..... Because that was on the minds of every soldier once we took prisoners, we took extra care not abuse them....ensured they where looked after according to or better than every law and convention we signed.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Borg Posted June 12, 2009 Report Posted June 12, 2009 (edited) AG Just stop it my friend - do not tear this or yourself up and no pity party (yeah I know it is not but others do not) - got some T-shirts as well - but many will give you sympathy and then add the "But" Hear you loud and clear - some day we may even sit down together - perhaps we already have We do it for the guy on the left of us and the guy on the right of us - to the rest - thanks The "perfect ones" can fuck off - once they have tasted the smells then and only then might they get it. Stay well AG Borg Edited June 12, 2009 by Borg Quote
Peter F Posted June 12, 2009 Report Posted June 12, 2009 We do it for the guy on the left of us and the guy on the right of us - to the rest - thanksThe "perfect ones" can fuck off I second that, Army Guy. Don't be lookin to people like me for your sense of Honour. Quote A bayonet is a tool with a worker at both ends
Jerry J. Fortin Posted June 12, 2009 Report Posted June 12, 2009 Honour is a word that few outside of the service can understand. Quote
ToadBrother Posted June 12, 2009 Report Posted June 12, 2009 The whole thing gave the impression that we where not trusted, to carry out our jobs in a professional manner any more....so it di effect moral...In our jobs professionalism is everything to us.... Amen! Quote
ToadBrother Posted June 12, 2009 Report Posted June 12, 2009 Can anyone honestly tell me this was entirely about prisoner abuse, and had nothing to do with getting media attention for a group or person....for those with an agenda this military investagation will mean squat, another means to drag this out in the media by crying foul letting the military investagate itself.....3 detainees out of the hundrds that where taken....and only 3 had similar injuries.....and that was enough to launch an investagation....no i believe that was enough for the media to run with a trumped up story....because it sold copies....it's OK to shoot the little bastards, but don't bruise them....is the message we got....what message did you get ? That some soldiers where beating the shit of unarmed prisoners like Somolia, tell me that did not cross your mind..... Because that was on the minds of every soldier once we took prisoners, we took extra care not abuse them....ensured they where looked after according to or better than every law and convention we signed.... It's about a lot of things. It's about attention whores, as you say, it's also about people who want us out of Afghanistan, and are willing to sacrifice the honor of our fighting men and women to do it. The Taliban are the descendants of some of the fiercest warriors who have ever existed, and to think that you can capture them with just a smile and a Timbit is so moronic that it makes my blood boil. What a weak, pathetic and worthless nation we're becoming, so distant from our old glories, where our soldiers gave their lives on foreign soil for freedom, that a few bruised combatants causes major investigations. Quote
Jerry J. Fortin Posted June 12, 2009 Report Posted June 12, 2009 It's about a lot of things. It's about attention whores, as you say, it's also about people who want us out of Afghanistan, and are willing to sacrifice the honor of our fighting men and women to do it.The Taliban are the descendants of some of the fiercest warriors who have ever existed, and to think that you can capture them with just a smile and a Timbit is so moronic that it makes my blood boil. What a weak, pathetic and worthless nation we're becoming, so distant from our old glories, where our soldiers gave their lives on foreign soil for freedom, that a few bruised combatants causes major investigations. So far nobody has ever held onto that nation besides the Afganies. Quote
ToadBrother Posted June 12, 2009 Report Posted June 12, 2009 So far nobody has ever held onto that nation besides the Afganies. Well Alexander the Great conquered the region, and it was controlled by the Seleucid Empire. The Mongols also seized it, but for the most part it's been a pretty ungovernable placd. Quote
Jerry J. Fortin Posted June 12, 2009 Report Posted June 12, 2009 Well Alexander the Great conquered the region, and it was controlled by the Seleucid Empire. The Mongols also seized it, but for the most part it's been a pretty ungovernable placd. He never really controlled the entire nation. It was his most difficult campaign. Quote
ToadBrother Posted June 12, 2009 Report Posted June 12, 2009 He never really controlled the entire nation. It was his most difficult campaign. The Seleucids and the Mongols certainly did, though these were both pretty short time spans. Quote
Army Guy Posted June 12, 2009 Author Report Posted June 12, 2009 (edited) Thanks Borg, and your right i'm not looking for pity, just a fair shake and to explain it from a soldiers piont of veiw....... As for the Beer, never sat down with to many zommies, but there is a first for everything.... Peter as funny as this seems honor and professionalism is all we soldiers have at the end of the day....I know that and 5 bucks will get me a beer....but that being said it means much more to them if it is given by the very people we serve.... Edited June 12, 2009 by Army Guy Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Peter F Posted June 12, 2009 Report Posted June 12, 2009 Peter as funny as this seems honor and professionalism is all we soldiers have at the end of the day....I know that and 5 bucks will get me a beer....but that being said it means much more to them if it is given by the very people we serve.... I know of what you speak. I have seen it in others during my few years in the military. It is important, certainly. I only say that the source of your honour and professionalism will not be found in me or ottawa university profs. Quote A bayonet is a tool with a worker at both ends
Borg Posted June 12, 2009 Report Posted June 12, 2009 (edited) Thanks Borg, and your right i'm not looking for pity, just a fair shake and to explain it from a soldiers piont of veiw.......As for the Beer, never sat down with to many zommies, but there is a first for everything.... I never wear wings on my combats - you would never have known - rode in a lot of LAVS in my day - sometimes we are forced to ground Hold Fast! Borg Edited June 12, 2009 by Borg Quote
Oleg Bach Posted June 12, 2009 Report Posted June 12, 2009 I never wear wings on my combats - you would never have known - rode in a lot of LAVS in my day - sometimes we are forced to groundHold Fast! Borg Borg - glad you leave the wings and home ----but that hallo is a dead give away ----- hold your ground - and keep the faith - there will be heaven on earth - it's creeping in slowly and delight and joy will over take all...it's just a case of time...I am hopeful and positive...and for me to look on the positive is a miracle - and miracles spread like a good virus - they can not be stopped...love you and yours....all is well that ends well - by the grace of good men and woman - and God - all will be well - trust me - I know these things.. Really Borg - the best is yet to come.....*** Quote
g_bambino Posted June 13, 2009 Report Posted June 13, 2009 We are better than terrorists! We cannot treat them the same way they treat us, especially in light of our mission in that country. We are currently trying to build a stable and peaceful democracy. We can't do that if we are constantly breaking our own rules and principles. We are better than that. I know. The arguments of some of the others here remind me of the silly line my mother always regurgitated every time I raised some question of the reasons for or the conduct of the second invasion of Iraq: "At least we [was she channelling Ignatieff?] don't cut their heads off, which is what they'd do to you." A reactionary straw man that completely - and intentionally, I imagine - missed the point. That said, however, I do have to agree with Borg that flippant charges levelled at our military for no other reason than political gain for the accuser should not be given the attention they may sometimes get. Quote
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