Does language identity relate to the person or the group?

[Machjo]

Does language identity relate to the person or the group?

[fellowtraveller]

I don't understand the question.

What is 'language identity'?

[Machjo]

I don't understand the question.

What is 'language identity'?

How you identify with the language. For instance, I would feel quite at home in any English-speaking, French-speaking, or Esperanto-speaking environment. If surrounded by people who speak only one of these languages, I wouldn't feel like a stranger at all, but rather as a member of a common linguistic community.

I don't feel that way to the same degree with Mandarin Chinese since my ability to communicate in it is still somewhat limited. I'd feel quite like an outsider in an Arabic or Persian environment since my abilities there are even more limited. And I'd feel like I might as well be on another planet if you airdropped me in an exclusively Swahili speaking environment.

For me though, I would likely feel more at home in the UK and France than I would in some parts of Nunavut, in my own country, just because I can communicate there. In some parts of Nunavut, communication might be difficult.

So I was wondering. Those here who don't know French. Where would you feel most at home? With whom would you feel the closest bond between a central Quebecer sho knows no English and a Briton?

Personally, if I didn't know French, I think, based on what I do know about myself, that I'd likely identify more easily with the Briton than with the unilingual French-speaking Quebecer. Or inversely, if I didn't know English, I'm sure I could identify more easily with a Frenchman than with a unilingual Albertan.

From my obsevations, unilingual Anglophones are more likely to watch the BBC or read the London times than they are to watch TV5 or Le Devoir. Likewise inversely for a unilingual French-speaker. Same with making friends, even on the internet. You're more likely in this forum to chat with a Briton than with a unilingual Quebecer.

From my observations, it would seem that we identify more strongly with our language group than we do with our national compatriots.

So the purpose of this poll is to see if I'm right or not. maybe I'm wrong. Maybe on some other level, some people can in fact identify more easily with compatriots than with people who share a common language. If so, I wouldn't mind hearing your stories of how that manifests itsel in your daily lives.

[fellowtraveller]

I still don't get it, this makes little sense in English:

To the person. I identify with language communities that I can communicate with.

Are you referring to the singular (person) or the group(community) in a single choice?

[fellowtraveller]

From my obsevations, unilingual Anglophones are more likely to watch the BBC or read the London times than they are to watch TV5 or Le Devoir.

Is this shocking in some way? Why would a poll be needed to know this?

People watch TV or read newspapers for information or entertainment. If they get neither, they don't watch. It is not a French vs English choice for a unilingual Anglophone, it is a choice of English media or no media.

[Machjo]

Is this shocking in some way? Why would a poll be needed to know this?

People watch TV or read newspapers for information or entertainment. If they get neither, they don't watch. It is not a French vs English choice for a unilingual Anglophone, it is a choice of English media or no media.

The poll is not about that directly, but how you identify with this reality. For example, do you identify more closely with central quebecers or Britons in your heart and mind, culturally.

I often hear people talking about Canada having one culture, yet seem to have closer ties with foreigners than with their own compatriots. So does it really have one culture? Or another way of looking at it:

Cultrually, would you say there is more in common between a unilingual French Quebecer and a unilingual English Albertan, or between a unilingual ENglish Albertan and a unilingual Englishman? If the latter, then how would you understand your linguistic and cultural identity in relation to your national identity.

I admit my poll might not have ben well made. But I'm just curious how unilingual Enlgish-speakers here feel about this. Do you feel closer to a Quebecer or a Texan?

[Machjo]

I still don't get it, this makes little sense in English:

Are you referring to the singular (person) or the group(community) in a single choice?

In the first, I mean 'do you identify with individual persons you can communicate with, who share a common language with you'?

And in the second, 'do you identify more abstractly to whatever language is said to be the official national language evenif you can't speak it yourself'?

My motive is to try tounderstand uniingual native English-speakers who defend Official Biingualism as it currently stands. I've seen some, especially in Rabble.ca, defend Official Bilingualism frothing at the mouth. Yet when I'd switch language to French, they couldn't follow me. And I don't support Official Bilingualism as it currently stands. I'm just trying to understand what it is that causes so many unilingual native English-speakers outside of Quebec to so pasionately defend Official Bilignualism, even more so than many French-speakers do.

I was hoping maybe this thread could shed some kind of light on this.

[fellowtraveller]

The poll is not about that directly, but how you identify with this reality. For example, do you identify more closely with central quebecers or Britons in your heart and mind, culturally.

What reality?

I am a Candian . Quebecois are Canadian. Of course we identify more with each other than with a Brit or a Breton. Those people know nothing of ouyr mutual language, hoickey.

[fellowtraveller]

I'm just trying to understand what it is that causes so many unilingual native English-speakers outside of Quebec to so pasionately defend Official Bilignualism, even more so than many French-speakers do.

I'm not part of that group.

The introduction of bilingualism was a failed experiment in social engineering that we refuse to let go of, Mr Trudeaus enduring legacy.

Realistically, what is the point of creating a generation of English/French bilingual children who will never use the language unless they aspire to be civil servants?

Wouldn't it serve Canada better if the second language was Spanish, or Mandarin?

Our trade future is not East- West, it is North-South and Pacific Rim. None of those folks speak French and none will learn. People in Quebec learn English because they simply cannot compete globally unless and until they do. You can shout 'cultural imperialism' from the rooftops, but there it is, plain and unvarnished: English is the global language of business.

[wyly]

I'm not part of that group.

The introduction of bilingualism was a failed experiment in social engineering that we refuse to let go of, Mr Trudeaus enduring legacy.

Realistically, what is the point of creating a generation of English/French bilingual children who will never use the language unless they aspire to be civil servants?

Wouldn't it serve Canada better if the second language was Spanish, or Mandarin?

Our trade future is not East- West, it is North-South and Pacific Rim. None of those folks speak French and none will learn. People in Quebec learn English because they simply cannot compete globally unless and until they do. You can shout 'cultural imperialism' from the rooftops, but there it is, plain and unvarnished: English is the global language of business.

here is something I heard in europe...if you speak three languages you're trilingual, two bilingual, one....american

it would serve us all better in an ever shrinking global community to be multilingual....I've a number of european cousins that speak at least two, some three and four and one five languages..English and French is a good start for us but we should add Spanish and Mandarin...I now regret dropping my French classes when I was young...

[Machjo]

here is something I heard in europe...if you speak three languages you're trilingual, two bilingual, one....american

it would serve us all better in an ever shrinking global community to be multilingual....I've a number of european cousins that speak at least two, some three and four and one five languages..English and French is a good start for us but we should add Spanish and Mandarin...I now regret dropping my French classes when I was young...

But how well do they really know it? One advertising company in 2003 conducted a poll in which three common English sentences were read out and the participants had to translate what they'd heard into their mother-tongue to confirm accurate comprehension. They'd found that only aobut 6% of participants in this poll which included participants from all over continental Western Europe wre able to translate the three sentences flawlessly. So, while we may think they nderstand us, they may in fact be misunderstandig us.

Euope on a personal level is not much more bilingual than Canada. And those who are fluently bilingual are often so in a neighbouing language, not necessarily English, with Enlish being but a smattering. It's only at the continental level that it's truly multilingual. In Canada, the situation is quite different, whereby we have Germanics tring to learn a Romance language and Latins trying to learn a Germanic language. No wonder our rate of success is so low.

Just read up on some of Formaggio's research, not online, but purchasable (ISBN/ISSN 8385033073).

And we must remember too that those who do know English well are the ones most likley to end up working in international business and tourism; they're by no means representative of the statistical average in their nations.

[Machjo]

What reality?

I am a Candian . Quebecois are Canadian. Of course we identify more with each other than with a Brit or a Breton. Those people know nothing of ouyr mutual language, hoickey.

Really? Our behaviour contradicts that assertion. How can an English Canadian really know the heart of French Canadians if he never reads Le Devoir or Le Monde Diplomatique in French or Paris Match, never listens to or watches the SRC, etc. Yet they're so familiar with CNN, the BBC, Fox, the London Times, the New Yorker, the Wall Street Journal, etc. Many native English speakers have never even heard of the Sorbonne or the Haute École de Commerce, yet are so familiar with Harvard, Oxford, Cambridge, etc. In fact, I'd challene any unilingual native English speaker in this forum to tell me which of the radio and TV stations and newspapers and universities above are in Quebec, and which in France. All of them are at least somewhat famous in the French-speaking world on both sides of the Atlantic, yet few monolingual English speaking Canadians could tell which is where without Googling it first.

And whatare two common songs Quebecers will often sing at a birthday party?

Yet some English Canadians can sing at least the first line or two of the US national anthem or God Save the Queen.

It's nice to say in theory that native English speakers identify more with Quebec than with the UK. In reality, even those who pretend so, if given a culture test, would be more familiar with UK culture than with Quebec.

[Hydraboss]

The poll is not about that directly, but how you identify with this reality. For example, do you identify more closely with central quebecers or Britons in your heart and mind, culturally.

Britons by far.

I often hear people talking about Canada having one culture, yet seem to have closer ties with foreigners than with their own compatriots. So does it really have one culture? Or another way of looking at it:

Canada is now defined by it's total lack of a culture. Multiculturalism has diluted it to the point where it no longer exists.

Cultrually, would you say there is more in common between a unilingual French Quebecer and a unilingual English Albertan, or between a unilingual ENglish Albertan and a unilingual Englishman? If the latter, then how would you understand your linguistic and cultural identity in relation to your national identity.

Albertans and Kwebekers? There IS NOTHING in common, except maybe the desire to be an independant nation. I am Albertan, and have more in common with Englishmen.

I admit my poll might not have ben well made. But I'm just curious how unilingual Enlgish-speakers here feel about this. Do you feel closer to a Quebecer or a Texan?

Alberta...Canada's Texas. It has been said many times before (sometimes by me): "Cultural identity" runs north-south, not east-west. There is zero in common between Alberta and Kwebek (except the parasitic relationship where we support the quasi-french).

(P.s. - please make another poll....maybe on whether people like my answer or not. Or what flavor of pudding you should have after dinner. Thanks.)

[M.Dancer]

Albertans and Kwebekers? There IS NOTHING in common, except maybe the desire to be an independant nation. I am Albertan, and have more in common with Englishmen.

You probably don't. Unless lager fuelled random violence on sunday is just the lad being lads, teen pregnancies just a fact of life which is okay cause with the mother's allowance, dole and council flats being what they are there will be no problem living on 4 square meals of fried potatoes and ham a day.

Trust me on this, there's good reason why Britons who can, live in Luxembourg...

[M.Dancer]

The poll is not about that directly, but how you identify with this reality. For example, do you identify more closely with central quebecers or Britons in your heart and mind, culturally.

Easy Peasey.

Born and raised in North East End Montreal by British immigrant parents....

Figure it out...

[Machjo]

Easy Peasey.

Born and raised in North East End Montreal by British immigrant parents....

Figure it out...

Tu connait le français aussi, j'imagine?

[Hydraboss]

You probably don't. Unless lager fuelled random violence on sunday is just the lad being lads, teen pregnancies just a fact of life which is okay cause with the mother's allowance, dole and council flats being what they are there will be no problem living on 4 square meals of fried potatoes and ham a day.

Trust me on this, there's good reason why Britons who can, live in Luxembourg...

Point taken.

What if I let my teeth rot a little?

[M.Dancer]

Point taken.

What if I let my teeth rot a little?

It will help if you don't want to look like a Toff.

Really though, Britain is close to being the armpit of Europe....highest rate of teen pregnanices...getting close to be a continental leader in murder, a leader in violent crime....abysmal health record...dismal education..it's a bloody socialist paradise.

[Hydraboss]

It will help if you don't want to look like a Toff.

Really though, Britain is close to being the armpit of Europe....highest rate of teen pregnanices...getting close to be a continental leader in murder, a leader in violent crime....abysmal health record...dismal education..it's a bloody socialist paradise.

[Smallc]

It will help if you don't want to look like a Toff.

Really though, Britain is close to being the armpit of Europe

According to the Human Development index, they are still counted as high, but they no longer share a dark shade of green with us (over 9.5/10).

Edited June 3, 2009 by Smallc

[M.Dancer]

According to the Human Development index, they are still counted as high, but they no longer share a dark shade of green with us (over 9.5/10).

Wales, Cornwall and Sussex probably skew the numbers. From what I hear, the north is the place to be for the connoisseur of the caucasion third world lifestyles

[wyly]

But how well do they really know it? One advertising company in 2003 conducted a poll in which three common English sentences were read out and the participants had to translate what they'd heard into their mother-tongue to confirm accurate comprehension. They'd found that only aobut 6% of participants in this poll which included participants from all over continental Western Europe wre able to translate the three sentences flawlessly. So, while we may think they nderstand us, they may in fact be misunderstandig us.

Euope on a personal level is not much more bilingual than Canada. And those who are fluently bilingual are often so in a neighbouing language, not necessarily English, with Enlish being but a smattering. It's only at the continental level that it's truly multilingual. In Canada, the situation is quite different, whereby we have Germanics tring to learn a Romance language and Latins trying to learn a Germanic language. No wonder our rate of success is so low.

Just read up on some of Formaggio's research, not online, but purchasable (ISBN/ISSN 8385033073).

And we must remember too that those who do know English well are the ones most likley to end up working in international business and tourism; they're by no means representative of the statistical average in their nations.

you're assuming english is the common second language and obviously it depends on what country you're asking the question in...two of my cousins are very fluent in English, likely better grammtically than myself they also both speak french, one also speaks Norwegian and German and has good understanding of Swedish and Danish... most of my relatives are good in Spanish since they have been vacationing there for 20-30 yrs, their kids are fluent, even my older relatives have basic understanding of English...

my experiences in europe don't match the research, most eurpoeans I've met appear to know more than one language of which neither may be english...

I recall meeting a Canadian girl 18yrs old from Toronto waiting tables in a small town cafe in Holland, she'd been there 4-5 yrs, spoke fluent Dutch, and German and was working on French...it was amazing listening to her go from table to table easily switching from one language to another...

[wyly]

Canada is now defined by it's total lack of a culture. Multiculturalism has diluted it to the point where it no longer exists.

Canada's culture has always been multicultural even before Trudeau enshrined it...Natives of many varieties, Quebecios, American Black and White, Irish, Scotts, English, Germans, Metis, Ukranian the list goes on....our culture evolves over time reflecting it's changing demographics...

Albertans and Kwebekers? There IS NOTHING in common, except maybe the desire to be an independant nation. I am Albertan, and have more in common with Englishmen.

independent Alberta only in the dreams of a very small delusional minority...

Alberta...Canada's Texas. It has been said many times before (sometimes by me): "Cultural identity" runs north-south, not east-west. There is zero in common between Alberta and Kwebek (except the parasitic relationship where we support the quasi-french).

fortunetly you don't speak for the majority of Albertans, and never will

[Machjo]

you're assuming english is the common second language and obviously it depends on what country you're asking the question in...two of my cousins are very fluent in English, likely better grammtically than myself they also both speak french, one also speaks Norwegian and German and has good understanding of Swedish and Danish... most of my relatives are good in Spanish since they have been vacationing there for 20-30 yrs, their kids are fluent, even my older relatives have basic understanding of English...

my experiences in europe don't match the research, most eurpoeans I've met appear to know more than one language of which neither may be english...

I recall meeting a Canadian girl 18yrs old from Toronto waiting tables in a small town cafe in Holland, she'd been there 4-5 yrs, spoke fluent Dutch, and German and was working on French...it was amazing listening to her go from table to table easily switching from one language to another...

Sorry, I have to correct myself. The study was in 2001, not 2003, my bad. Sorry.

Now as for your other comments, I know a few languages too, and most of my friends and collegues here in Ottawa do too. Actually, I can only think of a handful who are unilingual. My dad comes to mind; he's of British origin and knows only English, though he can understand French to a certain degree.

Yet if we look at StatsCan 2006, most Ottawans don't know both of Canada's official languages. Now close friends, colleagues and family members aside, on the rare occasion I have tried to function in French in Ottawa out of curiosity, and I was forced to admit that few know French, which confirms the statistics.

We tand to hang around with our own kind. Is it possible that you just come from a more educated family, that your colleagues are more educated than the average, that that waitress was bilingual before even going to Europe or had an interest in languages?

I remember another study in 1993 by Formaggio that showed that most high school students in the EU did not feel prepared to function at a decent level in their second language. We can't just look at ourselves and our own surroundings. That would be like a university professor concluding that we all had degrees because everyone around him did., or that we were all at least bilingual because everyone on campus was, or a firefighter assuming we were all strong enough to carry someone on our shoulders because all his friends could.

In he end, I'm more tempted to trust statistics over my own limited social surroundings.

[wyly]

Now as for your other comments, I know a few languages too, and most of my friends and collegues here in Ottawa do too. Actually, I can only think of a handful who are unilingual. My dad comes to mind; he's of British origin and knows only English, though he can understand French to a certain degree.

my mother was fluent in English, German , Dutch, and had just begun French when her parents pulled her from school ended her education...

I'd agree that you would generally find most bilingual or multilingual people at higher education levels...for my daughter who wants enter a masters degree program here in Calgary a second language is strongly advised for acceptance...she looked at a European University's Masters program and it insisted that all foreign students be fluent in English before admittance, an easy one for her....I haven't met Uni students from every euro country but those I have met all seem to have a working knowledge of english...

Yet if we look at StatsCan 2006, most Ottawans don't know both of Canada's official languages. Now close friends, colleagues and family members aside, on the rare occasion I have tried to function in French in Ottawa out of curiosity, and I was forced to admit that few know French, which confirms the statistics.

I have another daughter who according to government standards is bilingual, she says no way...

We tand to hang around with our own kind. Is it possible that you just come from a more educated family, that your colleagues are more educated than the average, that that waitress was bilingual before even going to Europe or had an interest in languages?

I doubt it my family is special, one of my cousins is a senior excutive for Shell Oil for 20+ years so it's a natural he would learn all those languages, the other is a very well respected internationally known Uni Prof so it was kind of a necessity he be multilingual as well...the others all pretty normal people that travel a lot going to Paris or London or Berlin for a weekend, Spain every summer is very routine, as is watching english TV...the waitress from what I recall was unilingual, she lived her early years in New York then Toronto and on to the Netherlands, total cultural immersion made her fluent in dutch(easier when you're young), French and German were taught in school plus close proximity to both countries certianly helped....

I remember another study in 1993 by Formaggio that showed that most high school students in the EU did not feel prepared to function at a decent level in their second language.

I'd agree with that, my daughter being one she say she can't speak french but 5yrs and learning nothing is hard to believe....and several kids I met in Europe, they claim they can't speak english but when pushed they can, they just fear making a mistake and are reluctant to try...I met a 15yr old girl an apprentice artist in glass blowing studio that claimed she spoke no english but when I kept asking questions she relaxed and opened up and was very very good...really I was surprised how few people spoke no english, only four that I recall and all older 60+ ...

In he end, I'm more tempted to trust statistics over my own limited social surroundings.

again I think it depends on which country the survey is done, Finland I've read is the most multilingual country, Netherlands would rate very highly as well...