Ignatieff calls bilingualism the essence of Canada

benny · May 30, 2009

So I suppose what Ignatief is saying is that if you are not bilingual you are not really a Canadian or at best you are a second class Class Canadian.

If you are not bilingual you are certainly a second-class Canadian in the sense that you cannot become Prime Minister of Canada.

Smallc · May 30, 2009

Well, you can become Prime Minister...but you probably won't.

benny · May 30, 2009

Well, you can become Prime Minister...but you probably won't.

I was thinking to Belinda Stronach, a wealthy father but no French.

CANADIEN · May 30, 2009

I must ask 'CANADIEN' why he is stooping so low as to alter an initial statement and quote that altered statement as being mine.

The answer is simple. I was NOT trying to make it look like you were saying something that makes sense, since nobody would believe that in the first place. I was borrowing your sentence structure to site a fact - you know, that kind of thing that you keep ignoring?

Like in this latest gem of yours.

But the facts are that the Montford hospital is affiliated with Ottawa University in Ottawa, Ontario, where there are many French speaking medical students from Quebec that are enrolled in that university.

You have of course the stats that "proves" that the majority of the students enrolled in the French-language medical school aaat the University of Ottawa are from Quebec? Or is it, as usual, nothing more than the same old and frankly ridiculous argument "if they speak french, they're from Quebec".

Next proof of your misunderstanding of what you write or post:

And the Montfort makes this claim relating to it's French-speaking students:
Montfort has a unique service mission towards Ontario’s Francophone community. Its teaching mission in medicine and health sciences also makes it a unique teaching milieu for minority francophones from across Canada.

http://www2.bmo.com/news/article/0,1083,co...ode-216,00.html

the fact that your quote is actually from the BMO aside, there is certainly nothing there that indicates that a preference is given to students from Quebec, quite the contrary.

And then we have this:

Other bilingual hospitals in Ottawa employ the services of many Quebec doctors and nurses as does the Montfort.

A complete and factual sentence would have include "because until not that long ago there was no way French-speaking Ontarians could receive medical training in French in Ontario. The more of them can receive that training in their own language in Ontario, the less hospitals like Montford will need to rely on doctors from Quebec".

And then we have the "best" of the lot.

This act initially introduced by Ontario David Peterson in 1986/89 at that time cost an estimated $500 million to $1- billion dollars plus a year

A recent study of the Fraser Institute (and their methodology was not that great imo, estimated the TOTAL "cost" of official bilingualism by ALL governments to be 1.8 billion dollars a year... and one third of it would be from the Government of Ontario alone? More than the federal government, more than the New Brunswick government? I'd love to see your methodology, would make for a great laugh fest.

(...) and provided at that time about 85 services.
In 2009 there are now 215 French Language services

In real English, we woulkd be talking about 21r organizations and agencies designated to provide services in French.

But the real fact of the matter is - like it or not, now that french-speaking Ontarians know it is not against the law to obtain provincial services in French,there will be more and more places where they are available. Sorry for you, but that kind of things happen when the rights of the individual are respected.

Edited May 30, 2009 by CANADIEN

Machjo · May 30, 2009

No, not really. I do not nor have I ever known anyone who attaches any particular nationalistic or cultural pride in English as a language. It's a function of communication, and I would be just as happy if I - and everyone else - spoke Swahili or German. I think French is an extremely inefficient, ineffective, overly complex language which almost no one outside academia can properly speak and write. Certainly very few Quebecers of my acquaintance can.

Hmmm... then let me help you here:

Of course we do not have the power we once had to impose our will but britain's influence endures, out of all proportion to her economic and military resources... Our language is our greatest asset, greater than North Sea Oil, and the supply is inexhaustible; furthermore, while we do not have a monopoly, our particular brand remains highly saught after. I am glad to say that those who guide the fortunes of this country shae my conviction in the need to invest in, and exploit to the ful, this invisible, God-given asset.

Chairman of the British Council

British Council Annual report, 1984-4

I've come across the same triumphalist attitude among native English Canadians. After all, if CIDA is funding this in China, then clearly there's someone there who shares that same attitude. And I bet you're one of them.

I own the book, but you can read part of it online here:

http://books.google.ca/books?id=4jVeGWtzQ1...num=4#PPA144,M1

I strongly recommend it.

Machjo · May 30, 2009

All Neo-Cons and rightwingers exhibit a fair amount of xenophobia when discussing foreign language, art and culture.

It's not unique to right-wingers. I'd come across the same in Rabble.ca of all places, and among left-wingers too!

Machjo · May 30, 2009

Name one.
I do know, as do most Anglos, that if you cross the river you can routinely expect to be deliberately snubbed and insulted by everyone from sales clerks at department stores to waitresses, and if you're unlucky enough to have a Quebec cop spot your Ontario plates there's a good chance you'll get a ticket for something.

There isn't one tenth the amount of anti-French sentiment among Anglos as there is anti-English sentiment among Francophones.

And almost all that anti-French sentiment is based on politics while the anti English sentiment is pure bigotry and ethnic nationalism.

I won't deny that there is anti-English bigotry among segments of the francophone population, but anti-French biotry among English spekers abounds just as much. It's not a French-English issue there, but an issue of hater vs love. Just as some French-speakers and English-speakers hate each other at an existential level, other French speakers and English speakers know how to make friends.

You're among the bigots I see.

Machjo · May 30, 2009

What it means is pouring money into French speaking areas outside Quebec, while ignoring English speaking areas inside Quebec.
What it means is deliberately importing French speaking immigrants so long as they agree to live in these small French speaking areas - to help sustain them - while completely ignoring the dwindling numbers of English speakers in Quebec.

Importing? How nice to see that you equate your fellow-man with cargo.

benny · May 30, 2009

What Ignatief fails to mention is that the Monfort hospital is touted as a 'bilingual hospital' in Ottawa, the same as other hospitals in Ottawa and all funded by the tax payers of Ontario.
The Montfort hospital is also a French language teaching hospital especially for the benefit of Quebec doctors and was previously the subject of a long drawn out battle (speared by French language activist) to keep this hospital from closing.

Ontario is a majority English speaking province with the French speaking population representing a little over 4%.

Who needs a 'ethnic rebel rouser' such as Ignatief as a possible PM of Canada.

What you fail to mention concerning Montfort is:

A court ruled in 1999 that the hospital cuts violated language rights. In 2001 a higher court upheld the decision and the province abandoned "common-sense" revolutionary Mike Harris' plans to close the hospital.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montfort_Hospital

Edited May 30, 2009 by benny

Machjo · May 30, 2009

Especially when the 17% are mostly all Quebecers.

Yu hate Quebcers, I know. But no, I did not check where the 17% came from. Go and do the calculations for yourself. Who knows, you might be right, or not. But it's clear from your statement here that it really matters to you where they come from so that you can take another shot at another 'ethnic' group. You do realise,don't you, that even you belong to an ethnic group whether you're aware of it or not?

'Sti d'nono.

benny · May 30, 2009

Yu hate Quebcers, I know. But no, I did not check where the 17% came from. Go and do the calculations for yourself. Who knows, you might be right, or not. But it's clear from your statement here that it really matters to you where they come from so that you can take another shot at another 'ethnic' group. You do realise,don't you, that even you belong to an ethnic group whether you're aware of it or not?
'Sti d'nono.

By the logic Leafless is applying around statistics, he would probably find very normal to kill or let die the remaining polar bears just because their current number is small.

Machjo · May 30, 2009

By the logic Leafless is applying around statistics, he would probably find very normal to kill or let die the remaining polar bears just because their current number is small.

And on a world scale, Canada's population is minuscule.

Edited May 30, 2009 by Machjo

benny · May 30, 2009

And on a world scale, Canada's population is minuscule.

Maybe Leafless is one of those numerous persons who hide their inferiority complex behind a superiority complex.

Visionseeker · May 30, 2009

So I suppose what Ignatief is saying is that if you are not bilingual you are not really a Canadian or at best you are a second class Class Canadian.
He also said:

And this:

What Ignatief fails to mention is that the Monfort hospital is touted as a 'bilingual hospital' in Ottawa, the same as other hospitals in Ottawa and all funded by the tax payers of Ontario.

The Montfort hospital is also a French language teaching hospital especially for the benefit of Quebec doctors and was previously the subject of a long drawn out battle (speared by French language activist) to keep this hospital from closing.

Ontario is a majority English speaking province with the French speaking population representing a little over 4%.

Who needs a 'ethnic rebel rouser' such as Ignatief as a possible PM of Canada.

http://thereview.ca/story/ignatieff-calls-...-essence-canada

*Embrun is a town about 25 min. east of Ottawa and is part of the larger Russell Township.

Great editing job, for you conveniently omitted this important morsel:

Ignatieff, who has been an overseas war reporter, said he has seen incredible violence over language and said Canada's linguistic diversity is a beacon for the world.

Therein, lies the basis of the notion that biligualism is the essence of Canada: it is a testimony to our civility. A virtue for which I have no doubt you struggle with daily.

KingIggy · May 30, 2009

It's not unique to right-wingers. I'd come across the same in Rabble.ca of all places, and among left-wingers too!

The extremes are equally bad on both sides.

But in terms of recent policies, the North American Neo-Cons (Republicans and modern Conservatives) are more xenophobic than NDP'ers, Liberals and Democrats.

KingIggy · May 30, 2009

Especially when the 17% are all Canadians. As are the remaining 83% of course.

That's right.

"Canadien" is just as Canadian as "Canadian".

And that's a simple truth which far-right, Xenophobic Neo-Cons (xeno-cons aka xeno-neo-cons) have trouble with.

benny · May 30, 2009

"Canadien" is just as Canadian as "Canadian".

"Canadien" is in fact the precursor of "Canadian". Quebec separatists like to repeat that Canadians have stolen there name from them.

Argus · May 30, 2009

I won't deny that there is anti-English bigotry among segments of the francophone population, but anti-French biotry among English spekers abounds just as much. It's not a French-English issue there, but an issue of hater vs love. Just as some French-speakers and English-speakers hate each other at an existential level, other French speakers and English speakers know how to make friends.
You're among the bigots I see.

You see poorly. Nor did you pay any attention to what was written above.

Anti-English bigotry thrives in Quebec. It is openly exhibited by politicians, union leaders, media stars and intellectuals, without censure from anyone. It is based on pure arrogant ethnic nationalism, with a presumption, openly stated, that Anglos are culturally inferior in every respect to Francophones.

Anti-French bigotry is scattered about, but is rarely openly stated in public, certainly not among any public persona who wants to retain their position. And anti-French resentment is almost all bred by the response to the political behaviour, demands, whining, bitching, and bigotry of Quebec Francophones.

As for my alleged bigotry towards Francophones - let me tell you about my day yesterday. It started out with a long, friendly, flirty conversation with a French girl friend. I went downtown to have lunch with a half English/Half French woman who is like a sister to me - and who complains about the "French nazis" who infest federal buildings downtown. After work, a friend of mine, also French, dropped by to upgrade my computer. Then I had dinner with an English/French couple. English and French are somewhat interchangeable in this city. Anyone who hates Frenchmen will have a limited social life.

However, politically, I hate Quebec and its incessant demands, the cultural imperialism of Francophones as a whole (granted, centred mostly in Quebec), and the ludicrously one-sided support of French in Canada which I see as not only tremendously expensive, but serving no purpose and in fact, creating incredible waste and unfairness in terms of government power, preference and jobs.

You want to pretend French bigotry is the same and of the same level as English bigotry? Fine. Delude yourself. But every Ontario driver knows the dangers of parking his car anywhere in the province of Quebec, while the legions of Quebec cars parked throughout government parking lots all across Ottawa go unmolested.

Argus · May 30, 2009

The extremes are equally bad on both sides.

You ARE the extreme.

You're just not smart enough to realize it.

Argus · May 30, 2009

Importing? How nice to see that you equate your fellow-man with cargo.

Play semantic games if that amuses you. The fact is that this is an official government policy.

There is no such policy regarding bringing in English speaking immigrants to help expand English minority communities in Quebec.

If they ever tried to institute such a policy there'd be riots throughout Quebec.

Argus · May 30, 2009

Argus. meet Leafless.

Being you display all the political acumen and sensitivity of a brick I can understand where you'd think that.

But Leafless' anti-French resentments are clearly politically inspired, and exacerbated here by people like you.

I read a writeup on the appointment of the new Supreme Court justice in the US recently by a conservative. What he wrote, perhaps hopefully, was that the appointment of Sotomayor was a good thing. Conservatives believe Kennedy, a somewhat conservative judge, has been pushed further to the left over the years because of his distaste for the abrasive and extreme beliefs of Antonin Scalia. Since their opinion is that Sotomayor is also extreme and extremely abrasive, but on the liberal side, they felt her attitude would push Kennedy back towards the right.

In such a way, Leafless, and to a lesser extent, myself, and others here, are pushed further away from positions held by abrasive, unreasonable and extremist people like you.

CANADIEN · May 30, 2009

You see poorly. Nor did you pay any attention to what was written above.

YOUR problem, like the problem with everything you write on the poor, immigrants, gays, etc., is that people can and do read what you write.

Anti-French bigotry is scattered about, but is rarely openly stated in public, certainly not among any public persona who wants to retain their position. And anti-French resentment is almost all bred by the response to the political behaviour, demands, whining, bitching, and bigotry of Quebec Francophones.

Yes, if only we "the French" knew our place and stayed there.

You want to pretend French bigotry is the same and of the same level as English bigotry? Fine. Delude yourself. But every Ontario driver knows the dangers of parking his car anywhere in the province of Quebec, while the legions of Quebec cars parked throughout government parking lots all across Ottawa go unmolested.

Interesting, isn't it, that I know dozens upon dozens of English-speaking Ontarians who have been to Quebec and only had good things to say about their experience, while I know more than a few people who have been harassed, insulted, threatened in public or private for daring to speak French outside Quebec.

Argus · May 30, 2009

Of course, I keep the name of the last Ottawa crappy restaurant I was unlucky enough to step into ten years ago.

So that's a NO.

Let's change Anglo for Franco, Quebec cop for Ontario cop or Alberta

The problem I have with that is that most of the people I know and work with are French. Most are from Quebec. None has EVER mentioned experiencing any such thing in their innumerable trips into Ottawa. Nor have I ever read anything in the media about Quebec plated cars being pulled over unfairly by Ontario cops. I have read the opposite, however, and the stories among Anglos here are too numerous to list.

CANADIEN · May 30, 2009

Being you display all the political acumen and sensitivity of a brick I can understand where you'd think that.

Rather a brick than a piece of garbage.

But Leafless' anti-French resentments are clearly politically inspired, and exacerbated here by people like you.

Of course, if only I stood and applauded when people tell me I am not Canadian, that my language is not Canadian enough, that I should not expect government services in that language, that I should go back to a place I am not from, that the English language (of all things) is threatned in Ontario, that the Charter of Rights is wrongs beause it protects rights, etc., etc., etc.

If you believe that Leafless' position would change if only people stopped treating it like the cr*p and the joke it is, I now have TWO pieces of swampland in Florida to sell to you.

Edited May 30, 2009 by CANADIEN

Argus · May 30, 2009

Hmmm... then let me help you here:
Of course we do not have the power we once had to impose our will but britain's influence endures, out of all proportion to her economic and military resources... Our language is our greatest asset, greater than North Sea Oil, and the supply is inexhaustible; furthermore, while we do not have a monopoly, our particular brand remains highly saught after. I am glad to say that those who guide the fortunes of this country shae my conviction in the need to invest in, and exploit to the ful, this invisible, God-given asset.

Chairman of the British Council

British Council Annual report, 1984-4

You had to go back a quarter century to find a quote from some organization I've never heard of to try and support your point? LOL

You know damned well you could find worse quotes from many present day Quebec artists, writers, intellectuals, union leaders and politicians.