Ignatieff calls bilingualism the essence of Canada

[Machjo]

Since the French language always did and still does exist outside of Quebec, there's nothing wrong with it. I'm sure many Quebecers would argue the same thing as you...but in reverse. Because we have two large language groups that founded this country, we acknowledge and celebrate both of them....a very admirable thing.

I know there are Quebecois versions of Ironstone. I've met some online and off.

As to what would be a very admirable thing would be to acknowledge that the two large language groups that founded this country also did so by pushing the original language groups to the margins.

And don't think I'm anti-white or anti-angophone or anti-francophone. I myself am white, anglophone and francophone. I'm just saying that when we way that these two language groups founded this country, we ignore that we also did so by pushing those who wre there to the margins. We seem to like to ignore that part of the whole thing and brush it under the carpet.

[Smallc]

I don't know about Ontario, but in Manitoba we we certainly don't forget about aboriginal culture. It plays a part in almost everything.

[Leafless]

Good idea. if everyone else agrees, I'd love to. I'm sure at least one person in this thread would be knocked out of the conversation.

This thread would not even exist if it was left up to French Canadians.

French threads have privously been tried on this site and have been proven to be a flop.

[Machjo]

This thread would not even exist if it was left up to French Canadians.

French threads have privously been tried on this site and have been proven to be a flop.

Agreed. After all, it is an English-medium site, lacking in the essence of a Canadian identity according to ignatieff's standards, eh?

[Machjo]

I don't know about Ontario, but in Manitoba we we certainly don't forget about aboriginal culture. It plays a part in almost everything.

Here in Ottawa, among non-natives, exceptions aside, it's essentially relegated to a quaint tourist interest. Needless to say, some aboiginals I've spoken to take some offense to that - especially successful entrepreneurs who hear all the prejudiced rehtoric about lazy indians all the time.

I'm happy to hear things are a little better in Manitoba. But of course here in the heart of Ottawa's capital, the French-English debate is all the rage, so there's not time to discuss native issues it would seem. Maybe, I hope, it's a little different in the rest of Ontario.

[CANADIEN]

So I suppose what Ignatief is saying is that if you are not bilingual you are not really a Canadian or at best you are a second class Class Canadian.

Nope. Although poersonal bilingualism is not the essence of what makes someone a Canadian.

He also said:

Ignatieff also spoke about the 250th anniversary of the battle at the Plains of Abraham, saying that while French-speaking people may have lost that battle, they won the war.

By that he obviously meant the "battle" to continue to exist. And on that account, he is right.

What Ignatief fails to mention is that the Monfort hospital is touted as a 'bilingual hospital' in Ottawa, the same as other hospitals in Ottawa and all funded by the tax payers of Ontario.

The Montfort hospital is also a French language teaching hospital especially for the benefit of French-speakiing Ontario medical students and was previously the subject of a long drawn out battle (speared by French language activist) to keep this hospital from closing.

[CANADIEN]

No, you are wrong.

I am half French Canadian and my wife is French Canadian, but we were both raised utilizing the English language and it's culture.

But I am not French-Canadian, just French. :lol: As for utilizing the English language, one has to wonder when you lost that capacity.

What I don't like is the governments trampling on and destroying or greatly diminishing the dominance of the majority White, English speaking culture that was created with the SAME civil liberties that were available to all Canadians.

I don't like things that do not exist either.

[CANADIEN]

No it is not - it was forced upon the majority by a treasonous prime minister - and now there is little to no hope for the average Canadian to work for the federal government - in fact preferential hiring has turned Ottawa into a franco enclave that ruiles the rest of Canada.

The collective must be getting sloppy. They forgot to erase the capacity for wild imagination when they assimilated you.

Official bilingualism at the federal level is a reflection of two caracteristics of this country - the fact that we have two national languages, and the importance of individual rights.

Let Borg go - sooner the better

Edited May 29, 2009 by CANADIEN

[CANADIEN]

His strong support of Quebec style language laws in Russel is telling. It's a sleepy area where everyone got along until newcomers - Frenchmen from Quebec who crossed the river to take government jobs - demanded a Quebec style language law. Now they have it and Francophones and Anglophones in that area have never hated each other more than they do now.

Quebecs-style laws? I didn't know some languages were prohibited in Russell.

Frenchmen coming from Quebec? If they're French, they're from France. And btw, most of the new residents in Prescott-Russell over the recent years have been English-speakers.

I am no fan of laws or by-laws that say to businesses what languages they need to use (btw, you know of course that the Russell by-law mandates Frecnh AND English). But let's not forget that this used to be an area where you could get services in English and french and the vast majority of businesses. That changed when some people decided that having English wasn't good enough, French had to go.

Edited May 29, 2009 by CANADIEN

[CANADIEN]

Bilingualism is a passing fad

The passing fad is bigoted ignorance such as yours.

If you think that's the "essence of Canada" (...)

then, one has to realize the fact we have two national languages is not "the" essence of the country, but one of its defining characteristics.

And Argus, if you lack the capacity to recognize that, now is tge time for YOU to emigrate.

[CANADIEN]

Why didn't Gauthier just realize that restauranteurs know that if bilingual menus will improve business, they'll offer them.

The idea that restaurants in Ottawa do not see fit to provide menus in the first language of one -sixth of its population or so just because there is no demand is fine in principle, and far from me to see that it is never a consideration. But it doesn't take that many encounters with bad or rude service for even having a conversation in French with another client to understand that there are restaurants where it's just plain bigotry.

[CANADIEN]

Bilingualism means promoting french outside of Quebec...and little else.

If that's how you call treating French-speaking Canadians outside Quebec as full Canadians, so be it.

[CANADIEN]

This thread would not even exist if it was left up to French Canadians.

French threads have privously been tried on this site and have been proven to be a flop.

I wouldn't think about starting a thread in English on a French-language site either. Nothing to do with the rights of Canadians.

[Argus]

It's part of this country...and I don't see that changing.

Your lack of vision has been noted often enough.

[Argus]

Must be a terrible world you live in....In my world, there's no such thing as "English Speaking Employment".

Your world is a very small, very smug one, far from any troubles of any sort. It's why every post reeks of self-satisfied "I'm all right, jack" sentiment.

[Argus]

please substantiate your biased claim

as an example, within the public service, there are positions that require French, require English or require both French and English. The hiring manager has a responsibility for determining the language requirements of a position -

As ALL hiring managers are required to be bilingual, they are, in most cases, Francophones, and in all cases, people whose careers benefit enormously from the requirements for bilingualism, and/or are people who have spent enormous effort to become bilingual. As such they tend to attach considerable importance to bilngualism even if the job actually has ZERO contact with the public and virtually no functional need to use French.

exists to suggest that some of these positions could be staffed by someone willing to become bilingual through language training at government expense

That has been all-but phased out now, and was never particularly in wide use. No one wants to hire an employee to do a needed job and then have them disapear for up to a year on language training, not unless there was absolutely no one else available, or the candidate posessed extensive skills which were not available from anyone else.

[Argus]

And no Anglo suffers from the same blind nationalism?

No, not really. I do not nor have I ever known anyone who attaches any particular nationalistic or cultural pride in English as a language. It's a function of communication, and I would be just as happy if I - and everyone else - spoke Swahili or German. I think French is an extremely inefficient, ineffective, overly complex language which almost no one outside academia can properly speak and write. Certainly very few Quebecers of my acquaintance can.

Edited May 29, 2009 by Argus

[KingIggy]

Only a blind rightwinger dismisses the practical need for social programs such as language and skill training.

[Argus]

Now this is something I strongly disagree with. Why should a civil servant get free French or English courses while those in the private sector don't. Besides, education is a provincial responsibility, not federal. If the federal government is short of bilingual staff, then why doesn't it bring the issue up with the provincial governments to get their education system right. Once a person is finished highschool, he should have to pay any further training at his own expense. No Canadians should be more equal than others in this respect. If public servants can get free second-language education, then so should all Canadians. Or inversely, none.

You would not WANT the kind of "free second language education" offered up to public servants.

For the most part, full time language education is only offered up to managers nowadays anyway. My agency did have part-time second language education the last few years but almost everyond - english and french - that I know, dropped out because of how atrociously bad it was. Following this - and the large number of complaints, the bureacracy did what bureacracies tend to do - acknowledged it screwed up by giving a long-term contract to an incompetent company and.......

LOL

No, of course not. What it did was to say that the large volume of employees who dropped their courses indicated a lack of dedication among employees, and so they restricted any further part-time education to a much more select group, those already bilingual who are trying to keep up their second language.

Of course, you would not think employees in bilingual positions would require continuous education to keep up their second language because, of course, those employees use their mandatory second language on a regular basis, right? Right?

Edited May 29, 2009 by Argus

[KingIggy]

All Neo-Cons and rightwingers exhibit a fair amount of xenophobia when discussing foreign language, art and culture.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

No matter which way you slice it, the essence of a Canadian has nothing to do with their ability to speak both official languages.

[KingIggy]

That's what blindly Americanized Albertans think.

[Argus]

Quebecs-style laws? I didn't know some languages were prohibited in Russell.

Frenchmen coming from Quebec? If they're French, they're from France. And btw, most of the new residents in Prescott-Russell over the recent years have been English-speakers.

I am no fan of laws or by-laws that say to businesses what languages they need to use (btw, you know of course that the Russell by-law mandates Frecnh AND English). But let's not forget that this used to be an area where you could get services in English and french and the vast majority of businesses. That changed when some people decided that having English wasn't good enough, French had to go.

What the far left fails to understand is that NO ONE ever makes such decisions. The English, for the most part, don't give a damn about French. If there are French signs or bilingual menus, so what? If someone decided not to provide services in French somewhere it wasn't a political statement, just one of those "uncanadian" people Ignatief was referring to who wasn't bilingual. Shame on those dirty non canadians daring to open up their own businesses! Don't they know only bilingual people should be allowed to do that!?

At least in Russel now, only bilingual people are.

[Argus]

By that he obviously meant the "battle" to continue to exist. And on that account, he is right.

Are you suggesting that Ignatieff, Mister intellectual, has such a shockingly poor grasp of the English language that he thinks saying "You won the war" is equivilent to saying the "battle continues" because if so I have to wonder if he just bought his degrees - and his high school diploma.

[Smallc]

Your world is a very small, very smug one, far from any troubles of any sort. It's why every post reeks of self-satisfied "I'm all right, jack" sentiment.

Well, I am alrgiht. Things are good for the most part in Canada even when they're bad. You like to complain about other people, but I find it's better to live with less hate.

Edited May 29, 2009 by Smallc