The BIBLE and SCIENCE

[ToadBrother]

What's wrong actual science as it really is, is not fitting into your narrow hypothesis of how life interacts with its environment? Real science does not have time for horse buggy minds and you will be cast aside as the simple mind you are. Life is the expansion of knowledge and not the limiting of it.

Real science is going where the evidence points, not pointless flights of fancy. Why do you think so many scientists have big problems with string theory? It ain't science until you have evidence for it and you can test it. I'm sorry that you find that so disturbing, but science has very clear rules; methodologies really, and what those methdologies aren't is "hey, particles can do funny things in quantum mechanics, I think I'll say quantum mechanics explains thought processes."

The onus is entirely on you to provide evidence. My being critical, well, that's the single most important aspect of science, my friend.

Edited February 7, 2010 by ToadBrother

[whowhere]

Real science is going where the evidence points, not pointless flights of fancy. Why do you think so many scientists have big problems with string theory? It ain't science until you have evidence for it and you can test it. I'm sorry that you find that so disturbing, but science has very clear rules; methodologies really, and what those methdologies aren't is "hey, particles can do funny things in quantum mechanics, I think I'll say quantum mechanics explains thought processes."

The onus is entirely on you to provide evidence. My being critical, well, that's the single most important aspect of science, my friend.

Quantum mechanics happens to involve the Radiation of heat from the earth. Radiation are waves/frequencies. The earth is emitting frequencies of its own and these frequencies can be carrier frequencies (if the technology exists to make it happen) and information signals can be imposed on these signals. Transmission of thought could occur on these Radiated Frequencies. Sad for modern Technology as they are not quite able to detect these frequencies they are only able to take a picture of them along the same lines as an MRI. I am not really questioning what you are saying is plausible or not I am merely interjecting the fallacies of what you are argueing against.

[ToadBrother]

Quantum mechanics happens to involve the Radiation of heat from the earth. Radiation are waves/frequencies. The earth is emitting frequencies of its own and these frequencies can be carrier frequencies (if the technology exists to make it happen) and information signals can be imposed on these signals. Transmission of thought could occur on these Radiated Frequencies. Sad for modern Technology as they are not quite able to detect these frequencies they are only able to take a picture of them along the same lines as an MRI. I am not really questioning what you are saying is plausible or not I am merely interjecting the fallacies of what you are argueing against.

I can't think of a moronically inefficient way to transmit information than through thermal radiation (which is mainly what the Earth radiates, most radioactive process being too small to generate vast numbers of charged particles). You still are demonstrating you have no idea what you're talking about.

[whowhere]

You still are demonstrating you have no idea what you're talking about.

Quite the opposite.

[GostHacked]

Quantum mechanics happens to involve the Radiation of heat from the earth. Radiation are waves/frequencies. The earth is emitting frequencies of its own and these frequencies can be carrier frequencies (if the technology exists to make it happen) and information signals can be imposed on these signals.

So the technology needs to exist first before you can claim that what you say is true. Sure we can use any medium and frequency once we graps/understand it and develop technology to take advantage of it. Again, this is all speculation.

Transmission of thought could occur on these Radiated Frequencies. Sad for modern Technology as they are not quite able to detect these frequencies they are only able to take a picture of them along the same lines as an MRI. I am not really questioning what you are saying is plausible or not I am merely interjecting the fallacies of what you are argueing against.

Why do you think it is sad that science can't prove something that you claim 'could' exists? I don't understand this.

[Shwa]

Original signal is converted to digital form, transmitted to receivers location, and reconstructed in visual form with high level of accuracy.

The problem is, you are skipping over a significant portion of the "transmitted" part, likely the part about being converted to digital form and then moved electronically from one location to another. But it is sufficient that you can see how each 'layer' has a transmitting and reception portion. Can you see that aspect?

Physical layer of communications channel is extremely solid. Seems likely that image available to receiver is entirely as sender intended.

Are you certain? There appears to be some hesitation here. "Seems likely" "could be" These are speculative terms. For instance, did you view the painting in it's original size format? Was the opacity of the paint apparent? How about the overall construction including brushstrokes, colour selection, etc?

...c-r's idea that our thoughts are directly connected to a great collective consciousness.

It is not c.r's idea as I pointed out earlier when I supplied the links for 'collective consciousness' 'collective unconscious' semiosphere, logosphere, etc. Do you think this might be a case of "...unlikely that receiver has obtained message sender intended?"

As always, you're quick to let people know they're not talking about what you want them to be talking about, but unwilling to actually say what you want to talk about.

I think I have acquitted myself well in this area. Repeatedly. What I see c.r talking about is that everything - all matter and energy - including any brain energy, thoughts, ions, etc. as existing in a reality at the quantum level which does not distinguish between any one set of thoughts with another. With the discussion about 'communication paths' I think we are establishing that even at the quantum level context is the distinguising factor.

...some sort of social concept of collective intelligence...

Nope. I think the physical connections to a collective are pretty apparent. No man is an island. You have already proved that any collective intelligence is physical in nature. However, anything 'physical in nature' might be implication through quantum mechanics and, then again, how much of a role does 'nature' play? ie being hard-wired the same will produce similar thinking.

...notion of a collective intelligence isn't some kind of zeitgeist formed through media...

What is a collective intelligence formed from then if not some sort of intermediate, phsyical, means?

And yet you didn't actually dispute any of my analysis of the situation.

Analysis of what situation? You are putting words in my mouth, feelings in my nerves and thoughts in my mind to suit your own position. Yet none of those words, feelings or thoughts have anything to do with me. It's all you.

[whowhere]

So the technology needs to exist first before you can claim that what you say is true. Sure we can use any medium and frequency once we graps/understand it and develop technology to take advantage of it. Again, this is all speculation.

We don't have a spacecraft capable of getting people to Mars doesn't mean it won't happen. The next time you listen to the radio, you will hear these principles at work.

Why do you think it is sad that science can't prove something that you claim 'could' exists? I don't understand this.

You are platforming Man as having all the answers and already know all there is to know yet nature has other life with all kinds of communication abilities using sonar and are able to see infrared light (such as bees). In your feeble existence you believe since you can't see Infrared light no other life is capable of see infrared or using infrared for more than heat. I say its sad because there is currently no devices such a radio to capture infrared waves for you to prove there is no information being projected on those waves and finding its way off of the planet earth.

I am not talking science fiction. If anyone is going to reach for fringe science to prop up their arguments you better not ignore real science which appears many on this thread are guilty of doing.

[GostHacked]

We don't have a spacecraft capable of getting people to Mars doesn't mean it won't happen. The next time you listen to the radio, you will hear these principles at work.

You are platforming Man as having all the answers and already know all there is to know yet nature has other life with all kinds of communication abilities using sonar and are able to see infrared light (such as bees). In your feeble existence you believe since you can't see Infrared light no other life is capable of see infrared or using infrared for more than heat. I say its sad because there is currently no devices such a radio to capture infrared waves for you to prove there is no information being projected on those waves and finding its way off of the planet earth.

Never platformed that man has all the answers. I have stated that religion says they have all the answers. And to correct you (although it does not help my argument) that bees see in the Ultra-Violet spectrum. And when using infrared we only get certain things out of the spectrum. Like heat detection or if the thing is moving away from us. That seems to be all the infrared is used for. It's not helpful in any other way.

I am not talking science fiction. If anyone is going to reach for fringe science to prop up their arguments you better not ignore real science which appears many on this thread are guilty of doing.

If you are not talking science fact, it is science fiction or speculation or a hypothesis. What you propose is speculation about the mediums, and since there is no real proof to back up what you are saying it is speculation and science fiction. Sure it may come to be science fact later, but it may also prove to be false. And since science has not come to any real solid consensus conclusion it remains fiction.

Mr Electron Soup (Energy) = Mass/physical world is illusion (Zero) Times Speed of light Squared

It appears Einstein has Established CR to be a big fat Zero. Oddly though, some monkey must be hitting his keyboard, we are see posts come from his illusionary world into the real world somehow.

What I find strange is that you agree with CR and try to prop up CR when you can, but when you do this, it throws me off. Hard to say where you are coming from.

[Shwa]

Note for kimmie:

Rather than simply edit my previous post, I thought I would add this as a sort of slight direction change. Instead of trying to formulate something about direct brain-to-brain on a quantum level, let's look at other influences on the brain, entirely physical, that have quantum implications.

This is just an idea of the questions being posed and the fascinating directions some areas of science are starting to go into. This is in relation to birds, but there might be application discovered one day that describes the affects on humans. Of course this is all preliminary, but it does reveal some interesting areas of study.

According to the brief bio:

István Bókkon: Chemical and bioengineer, PhD doctorandus at Semmelweis University, Member of the Hungarian Biochemical Society, Member of the Editorial Board of Activitas Nervosa Superior, Associate professor at Vision Research Institute, 428 Great Road Suite 11, Acton, MA 01720 USA

Abstract

Since the discovery of the presence of biogenic magnetites in living

organisms, there have been speculations on the role that these biomagnetites play in

cellular processes. It seems that the formation of biomagnetite crystals is a universal

phenomenon and not an exception in living cells. Many experimental facts show that

features of organic and inorganic processes could be indistinguishable at nanoscale

levels. Living cells are quantum “devices” rather than simple electronic devices utilizing

only the charge of conduction electrons. In our opinion, due to their unusual biophysical

properties, special biomagnetites must have a biological function in living cells in

general and in the brain in particular. In this paper we advance a hypothesis that while

biomagnetites are developed jointly with organic molecules and cellular

electromagnetic fields in cells, they can record information about the Earth¢s magnetic

vector potential of the entire flight in migratory birds.

The rest of the paper (PDF)

[whowhere]

Never platformed that man has all the answers. I have stated that religion says they have all the answers. And to correct you (although it does not help my argument) that bees see in the Ultra-Violet spectrum. And when using infrared we only get certain things out of the spectrum. Like heat detection or if the thing is moving away from us. That seems to be all the infrared is used for. It's not helpful in any other way.

If you are not talking science fact, it is science fiction or speculation or a hypothesis. What you propose is speculation about the mediums, and since there is no real proof to back up what you are saying it is speculation and science fiction. Sure it may come to be science fact later, but it may also prove to be false. And since science has not come to any real solid consensus conclusion it remains fiction.

Mr Electron Soup (Energy) = Mass/physical world is illusion (Zero) Times Speed of light Squared

It appears Einstein has Established CR to be a big fat Zero. Oddly though, some monkey must be hitting his keyboard, we are see posts come from his illusionary world into the real world somehow.

What I find strange is that you agree with CR and try to prop up CR when you can, but when you do this, it throws me off. Hard to say where you are coming from.

Carrier frequencies and inserting information signals on these Carriers is scientific fact. The world is not trying to impose frequencies on these frequencies (yet). So no, it is not science fiction. Not every country understand nuclear energy so they don't have it. That doesn't mean nuclear energy doesn't exist. The Sun uses nuclear fission. Just because no country in the world is using fission doesn't mean it doesn't exist either.

As for religion having all the answers? The irony I don't have any answers as to how I am able to walk, I just do it! Perhaps a God may exist and he doesn't know how he is able to be, he just is and is able to do what is outlined in whatever religion. Religion is more about you doing this and if you do it I the god will perhaps save you from death and perhaps listen to you. My premise it is not inconceivable to believe there is an advance life/conscious in existence. Science may delay you from meeting this life/conscious but eventually you will be dealt with by life according to its rules.

As for siding with CR, cr has this elusion that God is all present, all the time, and knows everything. I suggest you read the old Testament. That God never claimed to be that and he never claimed to be around 24/7. Christian Dementia is the reason you are led to believe that nonsense. CR is front and center with it. CR is fixated on the electron or atom or something and he has tried to use Quantum mechanics to prop up his dementia. I didn't try to use Quantum mechanics, it just so happen, I was looking for what the earth was naturally putting out to the universe in the way of frequencies. CR doesn't believe in actual Gods or entities he believes in a matrix of some sort. From what he is saying it sounds like east indian philosophy.

Edited February 8, 2010 by whowhere

[ToadBrother]

Carrier frequencies and inserting information signals on these Carriers is scientific fact. The world is not trying to impose frequencies on these frequencies (yet). So no, it is not science fiction. Not every country understand nuclear energy so they don't have it. That doesn't mean nuclear energy doesn't exist. The Sun uses nuclear fission. Just because no country in the world is using fission doesn't mean it doesn't exist either.

This is nothing more than word salad, ending with the delightful "the sun uses nuclear fission". No it doesn't, it uses fusion, because the atomic nuclei at the core are under such high pressures and temperatures that they fuse. (Fission is the using, generally, neutrons or atomic nuclei to bust open other atomic nuclei).

You've obviously concocted some hair-brained nonsense that sounds more like you've got a HAM license which makes you imagine you somehow can extrapolate that to other radiant energy sources, which is pretty idiotic. The Earth, first of all, is not a net radiator of radiation. Only the gas giants like Jupiter produce more radiation than they receive from the sun.

In short, you're talking bollocks.

Edited February 8, 2010 by ToadBrother

[whowhere]

This is nothing more than word salad, ending with the delightful "the sun uses nuclear fission". No it doesn't, it uses fusion, because the atomic nuclei at the core are under such high pressures and temperatures that they fuse. (Fission is the using, generally, neutrons or atomic nuclei to bust open other atomic nuclei).

You've obviously concocted some hair-brained nonsense that sounds more like you've got a HAM license which makes you imagine you somehow can extrapolate that to other radiant energy sources, which is pretty idiotic. The Earth, first of all, is not a net radiator of radiation. Only the gas giants like Jupiter produce more radiation than they receive from the sun.

In short, you're talking bollocks.

You are claiming information is not transmitted on frequencies, which is scientific fact. You claim infared frequencies are not being generated by the Earth, again scientific fact. The world cannot be defined by those with limited intelligence.

[ToadBrother]

You are claiming information is not transmitted on frequencies, which is scientific fact

I'm not saying anything of the kind.

. You claim infared frequencies are not being generated by the Earth, again scientific fact.

I already said we're radiating some thermal energy. You need to learn how to read.

The world cannot be defined by those with limited intelligence.

Is that what I can refer to you as, seeing as you seem functionally illiterate?

But using thermal radiation for broadcast? Why would you? There'd be so much loss, so much greater amount of interference from other radiant sources, that it seems utterly pointless. To have it evolve as a communication technique between different ganglia bundles in different organisms seems even more improbable.

The reason we use higher frequencies is because it's easier to discriminate between noise and data. It's also significantly easy to do directed transmission.

[GostHacked]

You are claiming information is not transmitted on frequencies, which is scientific fact. You claim infared frequencies are not being generated by the Earth, again scientific fact. The world cannot be defined by those with limited intelligence.

Infrared would be generated by a light source like the sun. The light waves simply reflect off the earth. The reflection of UV or IR light is what we can observe and measure. If we don't see those light waves the earth is either adsorbing it or refracting it.

edit

But IR also detects heat. So the earth can generate heat that is visible in the IR.

Edited February 8, 2010 by GostHacked

[GostHacked]

The reason we use higher frequencies is because it's easier to discriminate between noise and data. It's also significantly easy to do directed transmission.

Higher frequencies, does that require more power or less power?

[ToadBrother]

Higher frequencies, does that require more power or less power?

The need for more power comes from interference. At IR bands, you would have to deal with substantial amounts of interference. Imagine having an IR receiver trying to talk the guy a mile away. Someone in between turns on a light bulb, and you're going to start to suffer some noise. If it's fifty houses with lights, stoves, furnaces, etc., it becomes worse. Now imagine the sun rising...

Lower frequency bands just aren't that useful for communications. To overcome interference at any frequency means more power, but to make an IR signature stand out, well, that would probably require cranking it to several hundred degrees. You wouldn't have a radio, you'd have an oven.

Edited February 8, 2010 by ToadBrother

[GostHacked]

The need for more power comes from interference. At IR bands, you would have to deal with substantial amounts of interference. Imagine having an IR receiver trying to talk the guy a mile away. Someone in between turns on a light bulb, and you're going to start to suffer some noise. If it's fifty houses with lights, stoves, furnaces, etc., it becomes worse. Now imagine the sun rising...

Most remotes use IR. I think the Wii uses IR as well. And yeah very limited in range and you even need to point at the receiver for the signal to get picked up.

Lower frequency bands just aren't that useful for communications. To overcome interference at any frequency means more power, but to make an IR signature stand out, well, that would probably require cranking it to several hundred degrees. You wouldn't have a radio, you'd have an oven.

This is kind of what I was thinking myself. A longer wavelength can easily be interfered with. High frequencies require less power and don't suffer as much from interference.

[whowhere]

Checkmate... Toadbrother, Ghosthack

http://www.soundclarity.com/productdetail.asp_Q_id_E_717

SOUNDPLUS STEREO INFRARED TV SOUND AMPLIFIER SYSTEM

Product Code: WS-WIR238

Manufacturer: Williams Sound

Superb audio quality and versatility, plus 5-year warranty

The WIR238 infrared system is ideal for TV listening, meetings, or any small group listening application. Listen at the volume of your comfort. The RX238 infrared receiver delivers high quality stereo sound with adjustable volume control and tone control and balance control. It has an automatic shut-off, so it won’t be left on to drain the batteries.

The TX238 infrared transmitter connects directly to TV, VCR, DVD, satellite or audio equipment output jacks and can be placed on top of your television or equipment cabinet. Easily select between 2.3MHz or 2.8MHz operation. The system operates within a 30-ft line-of-site area of the transmitter.

May be compatible with infrared systems used in some movie theatres allowing you to take the receiver along with you to listen at your own volume.

Comes with 2 rechargeable NiMH batteries

And This.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_spectrum#Infrared_radiation

Infrared radiation

Main article: Infrared radiation

The infrared part of the electromagnetic spectrum covers the range from roughly 300 GHz (1 mm) to 400 THz (750 nm). It can be divided into three parts:

Far-infrared, from 300 GHz (1 mm) to 30 THz (10 μm). The lower part of this range may also be called microwaves. This radiation is typically absorbed by so-called rotational modes in gas-phase molecules, by molecular motions in liquids, and by phonons in solids. The water in the Earth's atmosphere absorbs so strongly in this range that it renders the atmosphere effectively opaque. However, there are certain wavelength ranges ("windows") within the opaque range which allow partial transmission, and can be used for astronomy. The wavelength range from approximately 200 μm up to a few mm is often referred to as "sub-millimetre" in astronomy, reserving far infrared for wavelengths below 200 μm.

Mid-infrared, from 30 to 120 THz (10 to 2.5 μm). Hot objects (black-body radiators) can radiate strongly in this range. It is absorbed by molecular vibrations, where the different atoms in a molecule vibrate around their equilibrium positions. This range is sometimes called the fingerprint region since the mid-infrared absorption spectrum of a compound is very specific for that compound.

Near-infrared, from 120 to 400 THz (2,500 to 750 nm). Physical processes that are relevant for this range are similar to those for visible light.

That's the mapped out ranges, as technology evolves this spectrum will likely get adjusted. All Real enough Science for you?

[ToadBrother]

Checkmate... Toadbrother, Ghosthack

http://www.soundclarity.com/productdetail.asp_Q_id_E_717

30 ft line of sight. Not exactly a long-range transmission.

And This.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_spectrum#Infrared_radiation

That's the mapped out ranges, as technology evolves this spectrum will likely get adjusted. All Real enough Science for you?

Yes, I know that as well. However, knowing that some ranges are opaque enough is not the same thing as using thermal radiation to communicate.

[whowhere]

30 ft line of sight. Not exactly a long-range transmission.

Yes, I know that as well. However, knowing that some ranges are opaque enough is not the same thing as using thermal radiation to communicate.

Wake up toadbrother!!!

http://www.brainandhealth.com/Brain-Waves.html

Researchers in the 1930's and 40's identified several different types of brain waves. Traditionally, these fall into 4 types:

- Delta waves (below 4 hz) occur during sleep

- Theta waves (4-7 hz) are associated with sleep, deep relaxation (like hypnotic relaxation), and visualization

- Alpha waves (8-13 hz) occur when we are relaxed and calm

- Beta waves (13-38 hz) occur when we are actively thinking, problem-solving, etc.

- Gamma brain waves (39-100 hz) are involved in higher mental activity and consolidation of information. An interesting study has shown that advanced Tibetan meditators produce higher levels of gamma than non-meditators both before and during meditation.

Bare in mind this is measuring brain activity and not the actual frequency of the thought itself.

[GostHacked]

That's the mapped out ranges, as technology evolves this spectrum will likely get adjusted. All Real enough Science for you?

For this kind of use, infrared is a good option. I mean it does have it's range limits. And we have had infrared in remotes since the 80s. Nothing real new here. you could not use this for long distance communication, and from your example the brain generates waves up to 200hz? Infrared starts at 300Ghz and goes up to 30Thz? I don't think we are suceptable to those waves.

[ToadBrother]

For this kind of use, infrared is a good option. I mean it does have it's range limits. And we have had infrared in remotes since the 80s. Nothing real new here. you could not use this for long distance communication, and from your example the brain generates waves up to 200hz? Infrared starts at 300Ghz and goes up to 30Thz? I don't think we are suceptable to those waves.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrared#Communications

IR does not penetrate walls and so does not interfere with other devices in adjoining rooms.

IR is used in a lot of communications equipment, in particular fiber optics and laser communication. You'll note that both of these in effect are "tight beam" (even though you can bend fiber to a certain extent and the photons will still follow along). What it's useless is for is wide area broadcasting (ie. radio transmissions). The only way IR/thermal radiation would be any good is if you had a huge emitter with a lot of power to make up for loss and noise, in other words, an oven.

How IR would be useful as an evolved (and thus far undetected) interbrain communication system is quite beyond me. Unless we have frickin laser beams in our heads, it strikes me as being a rather unlikely, and in fact, rather detectable interbrain communication system.

[GostHacked]

How IR would be useful as an evolved (and thus far undetected) interbrain communication system is quite beyond me. Unless we have frickin laser beams in our heads, it strikes me as being a rather unlikely, and in fact, rather detectable interbrain communication system.

I'll contact Dr. Evil and make it happen. And because not even our eyes can pick up infrared, that would be enough proof for me to show that there is no IR brain to brain thought transfer. If anything it might be in the ultra high frequencies that could affect our brain.

Electromagnetism seems to have an affect on people. Watching some Ghost Hunters or TAPS, they talk much about how bad wiring can make someone feel strange. Creating some EM field that makes people feel strange things like someone is watching them, or paranoia when it is not warranted. But this seems to be an effect on the total and not just the brain.

[ToadBrother]

I'll contact Dr. Evil and make it happen. And because not even our eyes can pick up infrared, that would be enough proof for me to show that there is no IR brain to brain thought transfer. If anything it might be in the ultra high frequencies that could affect our brain.

We can certainly sense it through the skin, which is much more sensitive to those wavelengths. Strong enough IR in the thermal ranges and generally, even with your eyes closed, you'll know which way the radiator is. But as a communication system, it would be grossly inaccurate, about the same as trying to compare the primitive eyes of a nematode, which basically can tell light from shadow and have only the most primitive capacity to determine shape, with a fully formed hominoid eye.

[jbg]

Beam me ^^^^ Scotty....