Tamil protest trumps Holocaust Memorial Day

[tango]

I agree with you that Holocaust denial should not be treated as a crime. But do not agree that it is preferable to debate it. Far better, IMO, to show it the contempt it deserves and ignnnore it. One would waste his/her time debating with someone who believes the Earth is flat. Even more so here.

Agreed.

There is no debate about the Holocaust.

[lictor616]

I agree with you that Holocaust denial should not be treated as a crime. But do not agree that it is preferable to debate it. Far better, IMO, to show it the contempt it deserves and ignnnore it. One would waste his/her time debating with someone who believes the Earth is flat. Even more so here.

of course, no country has "Spheroid Earth Denial Crimes" ... if one wants to be a member of the flat earth society even to debate with people... there are precisely ZERO laws in vigor to prevent such a hilarious (I admit) concept.

No one will lose a job and the media will not make a big deal out of anyone claiming to believe the earth is flat- because a flat earth is easily refutable... and it WOULD be the same for the Holocaust if it was as obviously supported by irrefutable data.

so the comparison with holocaust "denial" (that's an absurd weasel word- people are not denying that there was no single jew murdered or no such thing as a "holocaust") is preposterous.

If I discuss the earth being flat with you CANADIEN, you probably won't get all hateful and filled with rage and throw a temper tantrum... either you will laugh or completely ignore me (by ignore i mean say not comment AT ALL)..

Debating the theories openly is the only way to make them disappear (if indeed one is sure to be able to debunk them.... a "steal the thunder" type thing... but of course you will never even try, and doubtless know nothing but some of the more well known facts of the "official story"...

is such an environment desirable for a secular civilized society? or does it remind you more of christian persecution of GAlileo et al.?

[lictor616]

Agreed.

There is no debate about the Holocaust.

who are you to make such a pronouncement? Is your brain equipped with superior equipment to the millions of people (including eminent scholars on the subject) who have doubts and contentions on nearly ALL the issues of the holocaust?

[Sir Bandelot]

It seems to me that this thread is not about holocaust denial.

Its about trying to understand why these Tamils are protesting so fervently for weeks.

"Volunteer protest organizer Ragavan Baladarui said the effects of the war on his family in Sri Lanka compelled him to act.

"My aunt was killed in the war zone. She was killed when she was trying to cook food for the children," he said.

"And since then I couldn't stay home, I've been protesting."

The demonstrators want Canada to do more to force the Sri Lankan government to end its offensive against the last stronghold of the Tamil Tigers. The offensive has reportedly killed thousands of civilians, although casualty figures are impossible to verify because the government has barred reporters from entering the war zone."

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/090421/.../tamil_protests

Sounds like a holocaust all of its own.

Edited April 22, 2009 by Sir Bandelot

[DogOnPorch]

The numbers murdered during The Holocaust are always 'in doubt' because while Germans kept excellent records, they were also pretty good at covering their tracks when faced with defeat after 1943. At Babi Yar, the SS went back and tried to dig up every stinking corpse from the last two years...burn them and crush-up the bones. Well...the SS didn't do the digging, of course. The remaining ashes and bone dust was then spread over near-by farmland. Cabbages, apparently.

How many died at Babi Yar? Nobody knows. Many.

But, one gets a pretty good idea about the extent of the (Jewish) Holocaust by looking at the pre-war and post-war population of Poland.

Re: Tamils protesting.

They came to Canada to flee their problems now they want Canada to fight the fight they should be fighting? Pu-leaze. Get a job. I know I can't afford to sit on Parliment Hill for weeks on end. How can they?

Edited April 22, 2009 by DogOnPorch

[bill_barilko]

Re: Tamils protesting.

They came to Canada to flee their problems now they want Canada to fight the fight they should be fighting? Pu-leaze.

Get a job.

I know I can't afford to sit on Parliament Hill for weeks on end. How can they?

That's what I wonder but it's a common occurrence here-I remember seeing rich Afghans demonstrating here in Vancouver trying to get out Govt involved in their problems-and now we are.

Hundreds of dead Canadians later no progress and not one dead rich Vancouver Afghan or snotty rich Afghan kid. :angry:

[lictor616]

It seems to me that this thread is not about holocaust denial.

Its about trying to understand why these Tamils are protesting so fervently for weeks.

"Volunteer protest organizer Ragavan Baladarui said the effects of the war on his family in Sri Lanka compelled him to act.

"My aunt was killed in the war zone. She was killed when she was trying to cook food for the children," he said.

"And since then I couldn't stay home, I've been protesting."

The demonstrators want Canada to do more to force the Sri Lankan government to end its offensive against the last stronghold of the Tamil Tigers. The offensive has reportedly killed thousands of civilians, although casualty figures are impossible to verify because the government has barred reporters from entering the war zone."

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/090421/.../tamil_protests

Sounds like a holocaust all of its own.

I think that in the case of Sri Lanka and the tamils in Ceylon ...

the best approach would be that of "SEPARATION AND NON-INTERVENTION MAKE THE BEST NEIGHBORS"

we're not the worlds gopher.. we have no legitimate claim to interfere in their part of the world... just as they have no right to disturb the order of our country.

[tango]

I think that in the case of Sri Lanka and the tamils in Ceylon ...

the best approach would be that of "SEPARATION AND NON-INTERVENTION MAKE THE BEST NEIGHBORS"

we're not the worlds gopher.. we have no legitimate claim to interfere in their part of the world... just as they have no right to disturb the order of our country.

They have the right to peaceful protest.

And 10,000 people did today.

[M.Dancer]

Its about trying to understand why these Tamils are protesting so fervently for weeks.

It's verey simple.

The Tigers are losing. While they Tigers were holding their own and their suicide sqauds struck with impunity there wasn't a demo in sight.....now that the terrorists are all but done. the tiger network here and abroad strongarm the community to demonstrate in hopes that the international community will taje notice and demand a cease fire...

But since it is the Sinhalese scorthing the earth of Tamil-elam and not the hated Zionists The world says....have at em boys, no one would censor you for eradicating terrorism....

[M.Dancer]

I agree with you that Holocaust denial should not be treated as a crime. But do not agree that it is preferable to debate it. Far better, IMO, to show it the contempt it deserves and ignnnore it. One would waste his/her time debating with someone who believes the Earth is flat. Even more so here.

Ditto....no point debating with clowns...

[Hydraboss]

I have no problem with them protesting. Keep at 'er as long as you want. We have LOTS of welfare money in this "country".

I have a problem with anyone interfering with an official ceremony of this type. It wouldn't matter to me if it was 10,000 Albertans protesting for separation...I'd want them to get the hell off the hill and let the ceremony take place. If not, have the cops or military get in there and move them forcibly. This is not about civil rights; it's about respect for people who died in a horrific war.

And the number of Jews killed makes absolutely no difference. 5 million. 7 million. 40 million. The point is men, women and even children were murdered in the most horrendous ways imaginable (and some unimaginable) and they should be remembered.

Edited April 22, 2009 by Hydraboss

[Argus]

Use of the word "savages" is outdated and offensive.

Like I care.

[Argus]

Never mind that people in this country have the right to engage in peacful demonstration, which is what was happening...

It was only peaceful as a tactic this week. Last week they were blocking half the streets downtown, along with the transitway, waving pro-terrorist signs, and threatening people who complained. The police handed them with kid gloves precisely because of their capacity for violence.

But hey, at least you got yet another opportunity to engage in racist raving. Go get some slaves.

And you got yet another opportuinty to say something stupid and inane.

[Argus]

You don't think caslling a literate people "savages" racist?

Well of course you don't, you have a savage tribal mind....

You think literacy exempts people from being described as savages?

Would you object if someone were to describe Hitler and his Nazis, Mao and his communist zealots, or Pol Pot and his utopian murderers as savages?

[Argus]

Because, like most of everything he says, it is imbued with hate towards anyone who is not "white" enough for him.

I would have thought that YOU of all people, would by now have come to understand my contempt is directed at people I consider to be sub-literate cretins whose behaviour, attitude, culture and intellectual abilities mark than as distinctly inferior to what I'd consider an acceptable norm.

And clearly, that has no causal relationship with skin pigmentation.

Although I freely admit that a majority of the world's barbarians do indeed have a darker skin pigmentation.

[Argus]

It seems to me that this thread is not about holocaust denial.

Its about trying to understand why these Tamils are protesting so fervently for weeks.

"Volunteer protest organizer Ragavan Baladarui said the effects of the war on his family in Sri Lanka compelled him to act.

"My aunt was killed in the war zone. She was killed when she was trying to cook food for the children," he said.

"And since then I couldn't stay home, I've been protesting."

The demonstrators want Canada to do more to force the Sri Lankan government to end its offensive against the last stronghold of the Tamil Tigers. The offensive has reportedly killed thousands of civilians, although casualty figures are impossible to verify because the government has barred reporters from entering the war zone."

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/090421/.../tamil_protests

Sounds like a holocaust all of its own.

Nope. Not even anything remotely close. What you have is a group which decided it didn't like how its people were being treated by the majority. Pretty commonplace. And they resorted to violence. Also, unfortunately, fairly commonplace. This group however, had a propensity for violence which was unknown in the modern world. Now not all Tamils suppoted this group at first. But any time any more moderate leader voiced objections, he, and often enough his family, were summarilly murdered. The Tigers invented the suicide bomber, or perhaps took a page from Japanese history. In any event, they are the ones responsible for bringing it into the modern era. Their behaviour has been utterly barbarous, and they've slaughtered wantonly; men, women and children, and also stole young boys and girls to be used as child soldiers and sex slaves. Sri Lanka has been locked into a brutal civil war for decades because of them.

Now they are on the ropes. The last thing we want is for them to be let alone to recover and get back into the fight. Far more civilians will die in the long run, and there'll be far more misery, if they are not destroyed now.

[M.Dancer]

You think literacy exempts people from being described as savages?

Would you object if someone were to describe Hitler and his Nazis, Mao and his communist zealots, or Pol Pot and his utopian murderers as savages?

Try not to confuse nouns with adjectives...

[Sir Bandelot]

Nope. Not even anything remotely close. What you have is a group which decided it didn't like how its people were being treated by the majority. Pretty commonplace. And they resorted to violence. Also, unfortunately, fairly commonplace. This group however, had a propensity for violence which was unknown in the modern world. Now not all Tamils suppoted this group at first. But any time any more moderate leader voiced objections, he, and often enough his family, were summarilly murdered. The Tigers invented the suicide bomber, or perhaps took a page from Japanese history. In any event, they are the ones responsible for bringing it into the modern era. Their behaviour has been utterly barbarous, and they've slaughtered wantonly; men, women and children, and also stole young boys and girls to be used as child soldiers and sex slaves. Sri Lanka has been locked into a brutal civil war for decades because of them.

Now they are on the ropes. The last thing we want is for them to be let alone to recover and get back into the fight. Far more civilians will die in the long run, and there'll be far more misery, if they are not destroyed now.

Fine, I accept that criticism although it does not invalidate what I said in my earlier post. Sometimes I present certain points, that does not mean that I support those people in their cause. But the comparison of killing civilians in either case, jew or non-jew was worth noting, since the majority of people are not likely terrorists or want anything to do with violence.

And so if we take a broader view on this, why haven't we sent our troops in there as well, to help that government establish peasceful secure democracy.

Edited April 22, 2009 by Sir Bandelot

[M.Dancer]

And so if we take a broader view on this, why haven't we sent our troops in there as well, to help that government establish peasceful secure democracy.

1) No one has asked

2) They aleady have a working democracy

3) Soon once the Sri Lankan forces have eradictaed the Tigers, it will be secure.

[Dave_ON]

I have no problem with them protesting. Keep at 'er as long as you want. We have LOTS of welfare money in this "country".

I have a problem with anyone interfering with an official ceremony of this type. It wouldn't matter to me if it was 10,000 Albertans protesting for separation...I'd want them to get the hell off the hill and let the ceremony take place. If not, have the cops or military get in there and move them forcibly. This is not about civil rights; it's about respect for people who died in a horrific war.

And the number of Jews killed makes absolutely no difference. 5 million. 7 million. 40 million. The point is men, women and even children were murdered in the most horrendous ways imaginable (and some unimaginable) and they should be remembered.

I agree with Hydraboss. Of course these folks have every right to peaceful protest but this does not supersede the rights of others to congregate peacefully on the Hill as well for a memorial gathering or a counter protest if they so choose. Part of exercising your right to peaceful protest and freedom of speech is accepting that others can and will disagree with you.

As for the holocaust debate that is ongoing I think the folks that are debating the numbers are missing the point. The numbers do not matter and the scale doesn't make it any more or less deplorable. The point is people were murdered because of their race, religion and sexual preference during the holocaust. The point of remembering it this many years hence is to remain vigilant so that we do not fall victim to the same lies. Germany in the 30's was not all that different from us, and it would be arrogant to think that we could not fall into the same trap if we are not mindful of this.

In answer to Lictor616's earlier post I don't think we should every stop remembering what happened; if we distance ourselves from it, if we attempt to diminish its impact and the implications therein either by scale or by obfuscation we run the risk repeating those same mistakes. The numbers are certainly debatable the atrocities however are not.

[lictor616]

In answer to Lictor616's earlier post I don't think we should every stop remembering what happened; if we distance ourselves from it, if we attempt to diminish its impact and the implications therein either by scale or by obfuscation we run the risk repeating those same mistakes. The numbers are certainly debatable the atrocities however are not.

no the scale is supposedly the REASON why we are forced to remember. It'd be kinda hard to get people to sob and mourn 100 dead Jews, in the midst of the tens of millions dead in the war...

And of course, anyone acquainted with recent history, knows that the holocaust HAS BEEN repeated... In china, Russia, East Europe after the war, South East Asia, Rwanda etc... and it WILL happen again.

so apparently the lesson did'nt work and the "let's remember so it never happens again" argument is moot.

[lictor616]

They have the right to peaceful protest.

And 10,000 people did today.

sure let em stir up their age old hatreds OVER HERE! see how quickly their "peacful protest" (its not always that peaceful to block roads and destroy property) turns into a full blown massacre!

Maybe soon we'll have another blessing of a multicultural society: "ethnic terrorism" ... perhaps we'll get a jolly little race riot ... palestinians vs jews, Tamils vs Sri Lankens, Pakistanis vs Indians... ah yes I can almost feel the power of diversity now!

Its their right anyways... as you say...

and our obligation as Canadians to feed the world's anthropoid loonies and let them destroy our social fabric...

that's the canadian way.

Remember Canada: Diversity Is Our Strength.

[DogOnPorch]

no the scale is supposedly the REASON why we are forced to remember. It'd be kinda hard to get people to sob and mourn 100 dead Jews, in the midst of the tens of millions dead in the war...

And of course, anyone acquainted with recent history, knows that the holocaust HAS BEEN repeated... In china, Russia, East Europe after the war, South East Asia, Rwanda etc... and it WILL happen again.

so apparently the lesson did'nt work and the "let's remember so it never happens again" argument is moot.

The Holocaust is different from your 'average mass killing' because it was the deliberate systematic persecution plus attempted destruction of an entire section of population. While other groups did indeed suffer, it was more like they were caught in the cross-fire rather than singled out for 'special treatment' at the hands of the SS. It's sort of like the difference between 'murder 1' and 'murder 2'...did the criminal plan his crime or did he find a knife at the scene?

[M.Dancer]

see how quickly their "peacful protest" (its not always that peaceful to block roads and destroy property) turns into a full blown massacre!

Hysterical Hyperbole.

They haven't blocked roads, they haven't destroyed property...

...on to the next strawman....

[lictor616]

The Holocaust is different from your 'average mass killing' because it was the deliberate systematic persecution plus attempted destruction of an entire section of population. While other groups did indeed suffer, it was more like they were caught in the cross-fire rather than singled out for 'special treatment' at the hands of the SS. It's sort of like the difference between 'murder 1' and 'murder 2'...did the criminal plan his crime or did he find a knife at the scene?

the kurds where systemically persecuted in many regions in the middle east and levant... as where the Roma... as where the Kulaks in Ukraine during the Holodomor Genocide... as where the bourgeois class in China...

anyways..