Liberal non-policy convention

[capricorn]

The Liberal Party convention soon to be held in Vancouver doesn't seem to have an agenda. There won't be a leadership race since the appointment of interim leader Ignatieff will merely be rubber stamped. The Party has said no policy ideas will be discussed because they're afraid the Conservatives will steal them.

The federal Liberals will hold a major policy convention in early May, but they are refusing to discuss policy ideas and say they are avoiding making any policy suggestions that the governing Conservatives can copy in the next election.

They say they are keeping their still-developing campaign platform top secret in order to keep the focus squarely on the government amidst the rapidly deteriorating economy.

"What your policies are going to be in an election are announced just before you go into it. You don't want to provide an opportunity for target practice in the meantime," said Liberal Senator David Smith, one of four national campaign co-chairs charged with preparing the party for the next election.

http://www.hilltimes.com/html/cover_index....ention/&c=1

So how will Liberal brass develop policy? It looks like the grassroots will be out of the loop once again. They did not get to have a voice in Ignatieff's selection as leader and now will not have a say in the future direction of party policy.

This is not good optics for the party. It leaves the impression that everything flows from the top. Not good when you're trying to build your membership.

[Wild Bill]

So how will Liberal brass develop policy? It looks like the grassroots will be out of the loop once again. They did not get to have a voice in Ignatieff's selection as leader and now will not have a say in the future direction of party policy.

This is not good optics for the party. It leaves the impression that everything flows from the top. Not good when you're trying to build your membership.

Can you provide a single cite for it ever having been any different? To my knowledge, the old Reform Party was the sole and only party to ever build policy from the grassroots up. All the other parties might have policy workshops for their membership but they were and are always careful to make it non-binding, which of course renders it mere smoke and mirrors to make the mules feel appreciated.

[Alta4ever]

Can you provide a single cite for it ever having been any different? To my knowledge, the old Reform Party was the sole and only party to ever build policy from the grassroots up. All the other parties might have policy workshops for their membership but they were and are always careful to make it non-binding, which of course renders it mere smoke and mirrors to make the mules feel appreciated.

the CPC does it as well. 99% of what was at the Winnipeg convention was submitted by grassrots commiteeies from the riding assocaitions.

[waldo]

The Liberal Party convention soon to be held in Vancouver doesn't seem to have an agenda. There won't be a leadership race since the appointment of interim leader Ignatieff will merely be rubber stamped. The Party has said no policy ideas will be discussed because they're afraid the Conservatives will steal them.

So how will Liberal brass develop policy? It looks like the grassroots will be out of the loop once again. They did not get to have a voice in Ignatieff's selection as leader and now will not have a say in the future direction of party policy.

This is not good optics for the party. It leaves the impression that everything flows from the top. Not good when you're trying to build your membership.

nice (disingenuous) try - here... let me quote you from your own linked article:

The Liberal Party is holding a policy convention in Vancouver the first week of May where party members and MPs will participate in policy workshops and debates, as well as vote on resolutions as to what the party's policy will be on certain issues.

The (Liberal) party has also created an online forum, "En Famille," where party members can participate in online discussions, and vote on policies. The website is closed to the public, and party members must have a password in order to access the forum.

"People are free to debate and voice their views and that's the way it should be and you deal with that. Whether or not a certain debate will be incorporated into the platform, or have influence on the platform is not for me to decide, it's the leader's responsibility," he said.

perhaps we should examine the recent CPC 2008 Winnipeg convention - where the Conservative grassroots membership certainly should have been most encouraged to spend the big bucks to travel to Winnipeg after hearing the quote from Conservative Party spokesman Ryan Sparrow who played down the potential impact of the convention resolutions on government decisions. "They're just like any other consultation you would have with any stakeholder group," he said, confirming the government will not be bound by the Winnipeg decisions.

notwithstanding it was also the small numbered Conservative National Council that determined the (final) makeup of the 2008 CPC convention resolutions.

... and... Harper didn't even attend the CPC 2008 Winnipeg convention - certainly a disappointment to all those who might have been looking for another incident like at the 2005 CPC convention where the "spirited" Harper, in frustration over convention policy direction, kicked a chair and uttered an expletive deleted.

[Progressive Tory]

The (Liberal) party has also created an online forum, "En Famille," where party members can participate in online discussions, and vote on policies. The website is closed to the public, and party members must have a password in order to access the forum.

Harper didn't even attend the CPC 2008 Winnipeg convention - certainly a disappointment to all those who might have been looking for another incident like at the 2005 CPC convention where the "spirited" Harper, in frustration over convention policy direction, kicked a chair and uttered an expletive deleted.

I'm glad you mentioned 'En Famille' because I joined the group and it's a great way to get involved. WE give input over what policies we would like to see the party adopt, and there have been some good ideas. I was also, through Martha Hall-Finlay asked to submit five descriptive words to use on posters, etc. for the convention. They are going to pick the best from all submissions.

I got a phone call from Justin Trudeau, just taped, but he simply asked for suggestions and invited me to join. Even if my suggestions aren't taken or none of my words are chosen, I feel like a part of it. I'm currently drafting a memo for the board. It's grassroots at it's best. Martha also sent me a personal email, asking about my grandsons and thanking me for making her laugh. She told me about their office secretary having a little difficulty, since Ignatieff is only allowing them to speak French in the office, so that all become fluent. She loves it now but there were a few embarassing moments. It's corny, but it felt good just the same.

I read about the Harper hissy fit at the convention. It had something to do with Peter McKay. I guess he put on quite a display and they had to take him into another room so he could cool down. He may benefit from a little anger management.

[Wild Bill]

the CPC does it as well. 99% of what was at the Winnipeg convention was submitted by grassrots commiteeies from the riding assocaitions.

And Waldo promptly confirmed my original point, which was that the CPC 'grassroots committees' are non-binding on the party.

"Smoke and mirrors to make the mules feel appreciated". It was this lack of populism power and the facade of 'busywork' committees that made me bail on the Tories for Reform in the first place!

Again, I ask: "Why did Manning ever bother?"

[noahbody]

I'm glad you mentioned 'En Famille' because I joined the group and it's a great way to get involved.

It's a great way to position Ignatieff as a friend of the francophone. Quebec, not grassroots, is their priority. Don't be fooled.

She told me about their office secretary having a little difficulty, since Ignatieff is only allowing them to speak French in the office, so that all become fluent.

Why do you think she told you that?

[Progressive Tory]

It's a great way to position Ignatieff as a friend of the francophone. Quebec, not grassroots, is their priority. Don't be fooled.

Why do you think she told you that?

How am I being fooled? I just said it made me feel good. I'm not expecting to see my name in lights. Why did she tell me that? Who knows. I'm in Ontario so it doesn't matter as much to me what language they speak, but a single email to a grandmother in Ontario will hardly make the national news. They are trying to reach out to the grassroots. Her email did not ask for a donation. She mentioned that it was foggy in Ottawa on her first day back. I offered her the loan of an old mining helmet I have with a light on it. We were making conversation.

[capricorn]

nice (disingenuous) try -

Yes, that's what all Liberals say to anything critical of their party.

The (Liberal) party has also created an online forum, "En Famille," where party members can participate in online discussions, and vote on policies. The website is closed to the public, and party members must have a password in order to access the forum.

"People are free to debate and voice their views and that's the way it should be and you deal with that. Whether or not a certain debate will be incorporated into the platform, or have influence on the platform is not for me to decide, it's the leader's responsibility," he said.

All the more reason to question the purpose of a non-policy, non-leadership race national convention. All the supposed policy work is being done via the internet and that work will probably be ignored by Ignatieff. I mean, the convention will be nothing but a large and expensive gabfest to accomplish what? The only thing I can think of is that the party brass wants the media coverage of the convention to showcase the anointed Count. Will plumes of white smoke rise from the convention floor when Ignatieff is acclaimed leader?

[capricorn]

He may benefit from a little anger management.

You've been reading dobbin's posts. He sees anger in a lot of posts by non-Liberals.

[capricorn]

It's a great way to position Ignatieff as a friend of the francophone. Quebec, not grassroots, is their priority. Don't be fooled.

The proof is that Denis Coderre is actively recruiting "fatigued" separatists.

Michael Ignatieff’s Quebec lieutenant says he is wooing disaffected sovereigntists and members of the Action democratique du Quebec to the Liberal fold for the next election.

Denis Coderre says he has had talks with “fatigued“ sovereigntists about possibly running for the Liberals in the next federal election but wouldn’t identify them.

Members of the provincial ADQ, which has been reduced to third place in the legislature and is searching for a new leader, are also being courted.

Coderre says he is pitching the Liberals led by Ignatieff as the best party to defend Quebec’s interests.

http://www.winnipegsun.com/news/canada/200...16/8770776.html

I thought Ignatieff said he would never make a deal with people who want to break up the country. The Liberal tent is so huge, even separatists are welcome in the family.

"A coalition if necessary, but not necessarily a coalition." I think I'm beginning to understand what he was trying to say.

[Alta4ever]

And Waldo promptly confirmed my original point, which was that the CPC 'grassroots committees' are non-binding on the party.

"Smoke and mirrors to make the mules feel appreciated". It was this lack of populism power and the facade of 'busywork' committees that made me bail on the Tories for Reform in the first place!

Again, I ask: "Why did Manning ever bother?"

What is the point of reprinting the new policy booklet with the changes in it?

[waldo]

nice (disingenuous) try

Yes, that's what all Liberals say to anything critical of their party.

All the more reason to question the purpose of a non-policy, non-leadership race national convention. All the supposed policy work is being done via the internet and that work will probably be ignored by Ignatieff. I mean, the convention will be nothing but a large and expensive gabfest to accomplish what? The only thing I can think of is that the party brass wants the media coverage of the convention to showcase the anointed Count. Will plumes of white smoke rise from the convention floor when Ignatieff is acclaimed leader?

no - this thread is bogus... and disingenuous since you obviously didn't read your own linked to article in an attempt to fabricate an issue... all the while "conveniently" ignoring your own Conservative party's convention process and recent 2005/2008 convention results.

you say non-policy national convention, yet your linked to article states otherwise: let me re-quote - again - for the second time... directly from your linked to article:

The Liberal Party is holding a policy convention in Vancouver the first week of May where party members and MPs will participate in policy workshops and debates, as well as vote on resolutions as to what the party's policy will be on certain issues.

you say non-leadership race national convention - you are aware that the upcoming Vancouver Liberal convention will ratify the selection of Ignatieff as the party leader? You know that, right? In any case, apparently, you're suggesting that national conventions are only held if leadership is to be determined. By the way, did the CPC 2008 Winnipeg national convention determine a leader for the CPC? No? Why ever was a CPC convention held then?

[Shakeyhands]

since when did facts matter to some around here? Now... personalization in attacks matter...!

[Alta4ever]

By the way, did the CPC 2008 Winnipeg national convention determine a leader for the CPC? No? Why ever was a CPC convention held then?

If you read parties constitution (liberals have always had problems following rules) The party must have a policy convention every two years for the grassroots to decide what to add and remove for the parties policy declaration, as well as make changes to the constitution of the party. It was held so the grassroots would steer the party. As for Ryan Sparrow he is a hack, and knows nothing he and his boss can be removed by the grassroots of the party if it is desired.

[Alta4ever]

Here is the difference between the liberal process and the conservative one, the liberals talk about and change policy handed down from the party elite, the conservatives talk vote in or out policy put forward by the grassroots, and then the grassroots decides which to add or change by vote. Liberls=top down Conservatives= bottom up.

[Smallc]

Actually, Liberal policy ideas come from both the top and the bottom. I should know, I get emailed all the time on grassroots policy ideas .

Edited March 17, 2009 by Smallc

[capricorn]

no - this thread is bogus...

When I think a thread is bogus, I don't spend time posting on it.

and disingenuous since you obviously didn't read your own linked to article in an attempt to fabricate an issue...

It's an interesting issue in that Liberals are so paranoid they won't discuss policy matters openly in case their ideas are stolen. Sounds like an excuse for the elites to hatch party policy behind closed doors, away from the media and without grassroots input. That internet "En Famille" exercise is just to appease the peasants.

all the while "conveniently" ignoring your own Conservative party's convention process and recent 2005/2008 convention results.

Look waldorf, we're all free to pay attention to that which we feel is worthwhile paying attention to. I know sniveling when I read it, so I skip over it.

you say non-policy national convention, yet your linked to article states otherwise: let me re-quote - again - for the second time... directly from your linked to article:

The Liberal Party is holding a policy convention in Vancouver the first week of May where party members and MPs will participate in policy workshops and debates, as well as vote on resolutions as to what the party's policy will be on certain issues.

Hogwash.

Mr. Bélanger refused to say when the platform would be finished, just that the convention will be an important step along the way but that ultimately it will come down to what Mr. Ignatieff wants to run on.

http://www.hilltimes.com/html/index.php?di...ention/&c=2

you say non-leadership race national convention - you are aware that the upcoming Vancouver Liberal convention will ratify the selection of Ignatieff as the party leader?

You say ratify, I say rubber stamp. The convention might be a good time for grassroots Liberals (if they can find any among the elites) to vent their frustration at being ignored in major party decisions.

You know that, right? In any case, apparently, you're suggesting that national conventions are only held if leadership is to be determined.

You'll have to change crystal balls. This one's not giving you a proper reading of things. Maybe you should read slower.

By the way, did the CPC 2008 Winnipeg national convention determine a leader for the CPC? No? Why ever was a CPC convention held then?

Hey, you're pretty good at googling. Why should I do your research?

[Progressive Tory]

The proof is that Denis Coderre is actively recruiting "fatigued" separatists.

How is the Liberals' attempt at removing sovereigntists from a separatist party and getting them to join a federalist party, breaking up the country? In Ignatieff's book Blood and Belonging about the new nationalism, Quebec is one of the six places he covers. He gives views from all sides and speaks to Quebecers from all sides. It's very insightful, though I suppose that's why it became an International bestseller.

Our GG's husband is friends with many 'sovereigntists'.

I don't think you do quite grasp the concept of not 'necesssarily a coalition but a coalition if necessary'. If I'm having unexpected guests but don't know if they've eaten or not, I might get things ready in advance so that we can have dinner if necessary, but I won't necessarily have to serve them dinner. He was prepared for both. I don't know how he could have been more clear.

[Progressive Tory]

You've been reading dobbin's posts. He sees anger in a lot of posts by non-Liberals.

This was from the book The Pilgrimage of Stephen Harper, written by a friend and fellow Evangelist. I don't think dobbin was mentioned in that book that I can remember. Kicking over chairs doesn't sound like someone who's got it together and Harper's temper tantrums are well documented. Read Larry Spencer's book, and several others. All friends of his.

[Progressive Tory]

All the more reason to question the purpose of a non-policy, non-leadership race national convention. All the supposed policy work is being done via the internet and that work will probably be ignored by Ignatieff.

Much like the Conservative convention I guess

"The resolutions are not binding on the government of Prime Minister Stephen Harper. (On abortion) The party was not keen to air this issue – debate was limited during the private workshops on Friday and organizers cut off arguments yesterday over the objections of some delegates. Speaking to reporters after the vote, Justice Minister Rob Nicholson was quick to note Harper has publicly stated the Conservatives will not reopen the abortion debate.

Well see if they put forth the abortion issue again and limit the powers of the human Rights Commission. As to tough on crime, that's been kicking around forever, so was not a new policy. The conventions give delegates a chance to hash over ideas that do not necessarily become part of the party platform. At the Liberal Convention the resolutions would not be binding on the government of Prime Minister Michael Ignatieff.

Edited March 17, 2009 by Progressive Tory

[Progressive Tory]

Here is the difference between the liberal process and the conservative one, the liberals talk about and change policy handed down from the party elite, the conservatives talk vote in or out policy put forward by the grassroots, and then the grassroots decides which to add or change by vote. Liberls=top down Conservatives= bottom up.

Nice dream. Stephen Harper has moved away from the original party platform, to appear like he was governing from the centre. Now with the risk of losing his core support with threats of a new Reform style party being created, he's taking a few steps back to the right. He has one party policy now. Do anything to stay in power and if he had grassroots, he's smoked them all.

As stated in my response to Capricorn above:

"The resolutions are not binding on the government of Prime Minister Stephen Harper. (On abortion) The party was not keen to air this issue – debate was limited during the private workshops on Friday and organizers cut off arguments yesterday over the objections of some delegates. Speaking to reporters after the vote, Justice Minister Rob Nicholson was quick to note Harper has publicly stated the Conservatives will not reopen the abortion debate.

Well see if they put forth the abortion issue again and limit the powers of the human Rights Commission. As to tough on crime, that's been kicking around forever, so was not a new policy. The conventions give delegates a chance to hash over ideas that do not necessarily become part of the party platform. At the Liberal Convention the resolutions would not be binding on the government of Prime Minister Michael Ignatieff.

Remember these:

Equal marriage

Abortion

Human Rights Commission

Non-elected senate

Deficit

Gun registry

Women's rights

All there and locked up tight. Harper won't even allow his caucus free speech to discuss them openly. He only answers to the little voices in his head.

[Progressive Tory]

Actually, Liberal policy ideas come from both the top and the bottom. I should know, I get emailed all the time on grassroots policy ideas .

So do I. Did you get the personal phonecall? I liked it because they just said they were representing Michael Igantieff and wanted to know my views. I asked 'on what'? She said on anything. I told her I hoped she was sitting down. She just listened and I told her to call again.

She probably hung up and said 'what a fruitcake', but I didn't care. It was nice.

[Wild Bill]

What is the point of reprinting the new policy booklet with the changes in it?

I don't understand your reference! My point was that policy committees that are non-binding are mere makework exercises to fool the mules into thinking the leadership cares about their feelings.

You reply with a quip about reprinting policy books.

Maybe I'm just missing it. I don't get out much anymore.

Give me a break, please. What the heck are you talking about?

[capricorn]

Much like the Conservative convention I guess

"The resolutions are not binding on the government of Prime Minister Stephen Harper. (On abortion) The party was not keen to air this issue – debate was limited during the private workshops on Friday and organizers cut off arguments yesterday over the objections of some delegates. Speaking to reporters after the vote, Justice Minister Rob Nicholson was quick to note Harper has publicly stated the Conservatives will not reopen the abortion debate.

I'm not disputing the similarities between the Liberal and Conservative convention procedures. It's the air of secrecy that will envelop the Liberal (policy?) convention because the party fears their ideas will be stolen. By the party's own admission, no policies will be discussed or will emerge from the convention. At least Conservative party members participate in the selection of their leader.

The conventions give delegates a chance to hash over ideas that do not necessarily become part of the party platform.

Correct. A gabfest.

At the Liberal Convention the resolutions would not be binding on the government of Prime Minister Michael Ignatieff.

We'll see if there are any resulting policy resolutions. This may be difficult since it looks like policy discussions are off limits.

It's good that the Liberals will spend millions on a convention to rubber stamp Ignatieff's leadership and to hold talks while holding hands. The more they spend, the better. It will put a serious dent their meager bank account and leave them with less money to wage an election campaign. The winner here is the City of Vancouver that will benefit from all that Liberal spending.