Not Vietname, but things aren't looking pretty

[remrem]

It may not be Vietnam, but things aren’t looking pretty.

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Shiites angry over the arrest of a top cleric's deputy stormed through a Baghdad neighborhood Sunday, killing seven U.S. troops, wounding dozens more and taking over buildings, coalition officials said

Isn’t it ironic to anyone else, the Shiites that have clearly been more on the U.S. side and construction of a new government, are now turning against their American occupiers. I feel as though every time our administration brags that things are getting better in Iraq, things take a swift dive, as they did a few weeks ago. I think we should support our troops there as much as we can, but someone needs to help reform Bush’s plan for the vision of Iraq because his incompetence is clearly shining through.

Remi

Check at my new site at www.poeticinjustice.net, I have a forums page as well

[Black Dog]

It's getting downright ugly.

U.S. airstrike hits mosque

Heavy fighting continues

Here's the most disturbing part: the U.S. is now facing both Shia and Sunni uprisings. The last time this kind of thing hit the fan was 1920, when the Brits were faced with a widespread revolt. Thery used heavy bombardment and poison gas to suppress it.

[KrustyKidd]

I think we should support our troops there as much as we can, but someone needs to help reform Bush’s plan for the vision of Iraq because his incompetence is clearly shining through.

Nothing wrong with the overall plan. It's the same old Viet Nam thing; to afraid to do what it takes to win. This thing with the Cleric Al Sadr never should have happened. Soon as he and his goons butchered that Cleric with swords and the Murder Warrent was put out by the Council, they should have taken him down then. Instead, showing how 'Liberal' they are, they let this bastard set up a newspaper to spread his hate! No wonder they are having this uprising. However, as observed in BD's article

The upsurge in fighting had been predicted by the U.S. military as the June 30 handover date nears.

On the bonus side, it gets them all out of the woodwork so they can be confronted once and for all. It is highly unlikely any of these factions (including Al Queda and Hamas) would have ever accepted the new Iraq anyhow. To accept it is to accept that they would never have power. That's the last thing a group of thugs want is the people to have self determination and they will fight to the death.

[August1991]

It's the same old Viet Nam thing; too afraid to do what it takes to win.

In my mind, there is no comparison with Vietnam.

Vietnam was part of the Cold War. The Soviets supported the North and even the PRC assisted - up to a point. Without this support and assistance, the North could never have succeeded. In fact, the Americans "won" the war in the sense that the ostensible purpose was to ensure that South-East Asia - mainly Thailand and Malaysia - did not fall to the Communists.

One can quibble with Johnson's (McNamara's) method. In hindsight, Nixon handled it better. And the Brits in Malaysia handled it best.

The Americans lost 55,000 soldiers in Vietnam. To come close to this in Iraq, there would have to be several ambushes/helicopter crashes everyday for the next five years or so. Sorry, the two situations are so, so different.

It's getting downright ugly.

And CNN loves it! So, you can be sure CNN is going to make it sound that way! BD is a shill for corporate America!

(At least CNN generates profits. The CBC just generates smugness.)

[KrustyKidd]

No, it is like Viet Nam in the way that the people are divided and hence the enemy is heartened. As well, America is ftghting with at least one hand tied behind their back trying not to invoke public opinion against them further. This small uprising could have been avoided easily by decisive and deadly raids months ago. Saddam kept these people cowed for decades, maybe it might have been prudent to have used more force from the begining. You know, less schools, water pllants being built and more kick ass. Worked for Saddam.

If they had pulled this on Saddam, they would have been gassed or flattened. The US takes a week to decide how best to avoid killing innocents which by militents is seen as weakness. One thing is certain, the US will not leave until this is settled. Which is unlike Viet Nam.

[Black Dog]

Nothing wrong with the overall plan. It's the same old Viet Nam thing; to afraid to do what it takes to win. This thing with the Cleric Al Sadr never should have happened. Soon as he and his goons butchered that Cleric with swords and the Murder Warrent was put out by the Council, they should have taken him down then. Instead, showing how 'Liberal' they are, they let this bastard set up a newspaper to spread his hate! No wonder they are having this uprising.

Actually it was the shutdown of ther paper that prompted this latest round of violence. Anyway, exactly what is it that the U.S. is "too afraid" to do "to win"?

On the bonus side, it gets them all out of the woodwork so they can be confronted once and for all. It is highly unlikely any of these factions (including Al Queda and Hamas) would have ever accepted the new Iraq anyhow. To accept it is to accept that they would never have power. That's the last thing a group of thugs want is the people to have self determination and they will fight to the death

There's no doubt a broad number of interests at stake, but given Iraq's strong anti-colonial history, I think the characterization of the Iraqi resistance as freedom-hatin' terrorists is, at best, disingenuous.

And the Brits in Malaysia handled it best.

The Brits in Malaysia had a huge material advantage and were facing a tiny opponent that didn't even have the benefit of a sympatheicc local population. It still took them 12 years to put the rebellion down.

The Americans lost 55,000 soldiers in Vietnam. To come close to this in Iraq, there would have to be several ambushes/helicopter crashes everyday for the next five years or so. Sorry, the two situations are so, so different.

Dopn't forget: Iraq is a desert and Vietnam mostly covered in jungle. The parralells with Vietnam mostly revolve around the political circumstances and not the realities of life on the ground. The circumsatances are that the U.S. is paralyzed: withdraw now and risk thE whole country degenerating further into civil war and whatever meager gains made will be lost. Stay, and continue to lose troops and public goodwill at home.

And CNN loves it! So, you can be sure CNN is going to make it sound that way! BD is a shill for corporate America!

Lemme guess: the liberal media in action, right?

Reuters.

AP

FOX

Al Jazeera

BBC

Saddam kept these people cowed for decades, maybe it might have been prudent to have used more force from the begining. You know, less schools, water pllants being built and more kick ass. Worked for Saddam.

"We had to destroy the village to save it."

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear August1991,

[quoteAnd CNN loves it! So, you can be sure CNN is going to make it sound that way! BD is a shill for corporate America!

(At least CNN generates profits. The CBC just generates smugness.)It seems that the purpose of all US actions it to generate profit. It is their Koran.

[August1991]

It seems that the purpose of all US actions it to generate profit.

Is that bad?

Is It wrong to create something of greater value than the effort put in to create it? Is it wrong that the measure of value should be what someone else is prepared to give up to enjoy your creation?

"Profit" makes these ideas clear by using mathematics.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear August1991,

Is It wrong to create something of greater value than the effort put in to create it? Is it wrong that the measure of value should be what someone else is prepared to give up to enjoy your creation?

It depends on what one values. My creation is not that of say, Hitler's. He believed he was creating something of value, (to a few) and took away something more valuable from others to attain it.

"Profit" makes these ideas clear by using mathematics.

I agree. What most are unwilling to accept is that this idea is 'bi-polar', and the antithesis to morality.

[Guest ted]

Soon very soon Americans realize what partisan war is. Iraq revolt rises every day. And every days number of US solders deaths rises too. This time they could hardly buy the enemy and win. It is all serious. They can certainly agree with Saddam promising him a real power. But Saddam loosed his influence over Shiites. And he can’t be Shiites rebels’ leader. Moreover the situation is not controlled yet. Too much blood was sheded! Shiites will in any case avenge invaders.