Tickets and the open market

[Melanie_]

Take a stand on scalping - Wpg Free Press

IN the polite parlance of the Internet ticket-hawk­ing industry, scalpers are called “ticket brokers” and websites where they ply their trade — nomin­ally illegal in a few jurisdictions, including Manitoba — are “resale” websites. Ticketmaster, a multination­al behemoth in ticket-selling, has stoked the wrath of fans because it has entered the scalping game through a subsidiary, which offers tickets at prices many times their face value.

~snip~

This has enraged lowly fans, who have been flipped to the TicketsNow site by Ticketmaster within minutes of the public sale opening, and offered tickets at triple or more the price for shows such as AC/DC or the Eagles. Canadian fans, smelling a conspiracy, have launched a class-action lawsuit in Ontario.

~snip~

Ticketmaster reportedly wants scalping laws in Ontario and Manitoba scrapped, on the basis that the Internet has blown open the resale market, making such laws anachronistic.

Tickets for most major events sell out almost before you have a chance to buy them - the Eagles concert here in Winnipeg sold out in 16 minutes (I didn't get tickets.... yes, I'm bitter). But those tickets aren't being bought by the average person, they are being bought by "teams of buyers, armed with sophisticated software", who are able to access tickets even before they are on sale to the general public. They then sell them online, at massive markups. The law in Manitoba and Ontario says that tickets can't legally be sold above the face value, but we all know that people have been doing it anyway, for as long as concerts have been around. Now they've found a way to do it on a grander scale, rather than hanging around the entrance to the arena on concert night. Are Manitoba and Ontario's scalping laws outdated? Should ticket prices for concerts and sporting events just be set by the open market - highest bidder wins?

[jdobbin]

Should ticket prices for concerts and sporting events just be set by the open market - highest bidder wins?

Ticketmaster wants Manitoba anti-scalping laws scrapped because they are breaking the law with their own TicketsNow website.

I think we need enforcement of the present laws. Ebay and Ticketmaster should be forced to pull tickets off their sites for violating local laws.

Some of these large buyers might be in for a surprise if they suddenly are forced off ebay and the like for selling at higher prices.

And yes, the Internet operations of these companies can face the law in Canada. Both have Canadian operations that can be subject to Canadian laws.

[blueblood]

Ticketmaster wants Manitoba anti-scalping laws scrapped because they are breaking the law with their own TicketsNow website.

I think we need enforcement of the present laws. Ebay and Ticketmaster should be forced to pull tickets off their sites for violating local laws.

Some of these large buyers might be in for a surprise if they suddenly are forced off ebay and the like for selling at higher prices.

And yes, the Internet operations of these companies can face the law in Canada. Both have Canadian operations that can be subject to Canadian laws.

You'd have to make giving tickets away as gifts illegal then. Those pins and t shirts on ebay and kwijiji become ridiculous when there are certain tickets that come with them...

I think that tickets should only be sold thru the box office, a limit of two per customer, and only paid with a credit card. My reasoning is that if someone is willing to get soaked by a scalper, they should be willing to accept the cost of gas and time to acquire the ticket.

However there is a way around scalpers, for instance at the grey cup in Winnipeg (personally I despise CFL football, but my buddy wanted to go and party, and the cows were fed up and I had nothing better to do) I was able to wait until a minute before kickoff, look for the scalper who looked like he was having the biggest coniption fit and got the tickets for half the sales price. The scalper has become the scalpee.

[DrGreenthumb]

You'd have to make giving tickets away as gifts illegal then. Those pins and t shirts on ebay and kwijiji become ridiculous when there are certain tickets that come with them...

I think that tickets should only be sold thru the box office, a limit of two per customer, and only paid with a credit card. My reasoning is that if someone is willing to get soaked by a scalper, they should be willing to accept the cost of gas and time to acquire the ticket.

However there is a way around scalpers, for instance at the grey cup in Winnipeg (personally I despise CFL football, but my buddy wanted to go and party, and the cows were fed up and I had nothing better to do) I was able to wait until a minute before kickoff, look for the scalper who looked like he was having the biggest coniption fit and got the tickets for half the sales price. The scalper has become the scalpee.

I did the same thing for a Pink Floyd concert in winnipeg. Had enough money left over to buy some of the party favours that were floating around the stadium. I remember the headline from the next day's paper "I bet they can smell it in Brandon". It was a great concert.

They should nail ticketmaster to the wall for screwing over the fans. The cops should just go through the ebay and kijiji listings and go bust people who are scalping tickets by selling a pin or whatever. If someone was openly selling weed or coke in want ad websites or "giving" it away with purchase of a paper clip, you can bet your ass the cops would be all over it. Why should these greedy bastards get a free pass?

[jdobbin]

You'd have to make giving tickets away as gifts illegal then. Those pins and t shirts on ebay and kwijiji become ridiculous when there are certain tickets that come with them...

The law covers that just as it would if someone was selling expensive hotdogs along with two free tickets outside the MTS Centre.

I think that tickets should only be sold thru the box office, a limit of two per customer, and only paid with a credit card. My reasoning is that if someone is willing to get soaked by a scalper, they should be willing to accept the cost of gas and time to acquire the ticket.

Since ticket sales are controlled by near monopoly-owed Ticketmaster, I'm sure they could do more to hit scalpers.

However there is a way around scalpers, for instance at the grey cup in Winnipeg (personally I despise CFL football, but my buddy wanted to go and party, and the cows were fed up and I had nothing better to do) I was able to wait until a minute before kickoff, look for the scalper who looked like he was having the biggest coniption fit and got the tickets for half the sales price. The scalper has become the scalpee.

It doesn't always work out that buyer for popular events.

[blueblood]

The law covers that just as it would if someone was selling expensive hotdogs along with two free tickets outside the MTS Centre.

Since ticket sales are controlled by near monopoly-owed Ticketmaster, I'm sure they could do more to hit scalpers.

It doesn't always work out that buyer for popular events.

I didn't know the law covered the handing out the free tickets as prizes. I thought that was a loophole.

I was thinking the limit to two per customer would put a large dent in the operation as most people would just line up at the office. That buying on line and over the phone is a crapshoot. They probably could do more, I'm not sure how.

That's true it doesn't work out for some events. Sometimes you have to miss part of it to get the deal. The scalpers need to sell their excess in order to hedge their losses. I was surprised it worked at grey cup, that is a popular event. I don't know what it wouldn't work at, I can see it not working for concerts however as the demand is ridiculous.

[August1991]

Ticketmaster wants Manitoba anti-scalping laws scrapped because they are breaking the law with their own TicketsNow website.

I think we need enforcement of the present laws. Ebay and Ticketmaster should be forced to pull tickets off their sites for violating local laws.

Some of these large buyers might be in for a surprise if they suddenly are forced off ebay and the like for selling at higher prices.

And yes, the Internet operations of these companies can face the law in Canada. Both have Canadian operations that can be subject to Canadian laws.

Why should the Canadian or Manitoba governments do the bidding (sorry) of the Eagles or their producers?

It seems that the source of the problem is that the initial ticket prices are set too low. If the show's producers choose this marketing strategy, do you really think the government should try to change it? Are we now to have government bureaucrats involved in concert promotion?

[jdobbin]

Why should the Canadian or Manitoba governments do the bidding (sorry) of the Eagles or their producers?

If it violates anti-trust laws or other laws, it is defence of the consumer as well as the producer.

It seems that the source of the problem is that the initial ticket prices are set too low. If the show's producers choose this marketing strategy, do you really think the government should try to change it? Are we now to have government bureaucrats involved in concert promotion?

No, the government should be involved in cases of fraud (such as Ticketmaster's Tickets Now website) and they should be involved in consumer protection.

[August1991]

If it violates anti-trust laws or other laws, it is defence of the consumer as well as the producer.

The Eagles are guilty of anti-trust laws? How? Which law? (BTW, I don't think Canada has an anti-trust law.)

The Eagles (or the their concert producers) choose to set the price of their tickets below the market price. How is that illegal?

The question is not why Ticketmaster has a subsidiary to sell tickets at a higher price. The question is: why do the Eagles charge such a low price and forego the extra profits? Then again, maybe the question is: why do the Eagles use subterfuge to sell tickets at a high price?

So many questions... I think politicians and bureacrats should not try to answer them despite how many Eagle fans seek political support for their hobby.

Earmarks... Ugh.

[KeyStone]

Why should the Canadian or Manitoba governments do the bidding (sorry) of the Eagles or their producers?

It seems that the source of the problem is that the initial ticket prices are set too low. If the show's producers choose this marketing strategy, do you really think the government should try to change it? Are we now to have government bureaucrats involved in concert promotion?

I think you've partially nailed the problem on the head.

Ticket prices are too low. For some concerts with limited tickets, people are willing to pay much more than the ticket price.

The problem is that the artists and the promoters are being generous, and rather than that generosity helping out thousands of fans that want to go to the concert for a reasonable price - the scalpers are soaking up that generosity, and making huge profits at the expense of the average consumer.

Here's a solution:

1) You can buy two tickets with your credit card at face value - either online or in person.

The ticket is printed up with your name on the ticket.

On the day of the concert, if your name is not on the ticket (or you are not accompanied by the purchaser), you pay an extra $50 surcharge.

This way, if you are truly buying for yourself, it is cheaper. If you are looking to make a profit, the concert organizers are able to charge a premium, so that the scalpers are not making the majoirty of the money.

[jdobbin]

The Eagles are guilty of anti-trust laws? How? Which law? (BTW, I don't think Canada has an anti-trust law.)

It doesn't have anything to do with the Eagles aside from the fact that they are the performers. It has to do with Ticketmaster using anticompetitive practices and fraud to jack up prices in violation of Canadian laws.

The question is not why Ticketmaster has a subsidiary to sell tickets at a higher price. The question is: why do the Eagles charge such a low price and forego the extra profits? Then again, maybe the question is: why do the Eagles use subterfuge to sell tickets at a high price?

Musicians and others can't set budgets for tours based on possible ebay sales.

The distributor shouldn't be using their position as ticket seller to send people to their other website where they have mysteriously grabbed numerous tickets to sell for above face value, a violation of provincial laws.

You just don't get it. Ticketmaster is using fraud to sell tickets to people who believe they are buying face value tickets for the show. Ticketmaster is also breaking provincial laws by selling tickets at higher than face value.

You might not like the law but is in place and Ticketmaster is violating that law.

[fellowtraveller]

Maybe the Winnipeg based Wheat Board could take control of ticket sales in Manitoba, the few artists that stop there would be relieved of all this trouble when quotas and one stop marketing save the day.

I know a scalper who makes his living selling Oilers tickets, and other tickets for various events held at Rexall offered first to Oilers season ticket holders. He avoids legal hassles by offering a Club pass and free parking a few blocks away to all ticket holders, and charges whatevcer the market will bear. Sometimes that is face value, sometimes it is much more.

That is life in a market society, supply and demand. If you don't want to pay, don't .

[jdobbin]

Maybe the Winnipeg based Wheat Board could take control of ticket sales in Manitoba, the few artists that stop there would be relieved of all this trouble when quotas and one stop marketing save the day.

The MTS Centre is the 19th busiest facility in the world and the third busiest in Canada. Only Montreal and Toronto have bigger numbers.

Ticket scalping is against the law. Fraud is against the law.

It always surprises me that law abiding people on the right seem to have no problem breaking the law when it suits them on things like buying pot or buying or selling scalped tickets.

I know a scalper who makes his living selling Oilers tickets, and other tickets for various events held at Rexall offered first to Oilers season ticket holders. He avoids legal hassles by offering a Club pass and free parking a few blocks away to all ticket holders, and charges whatevcer the market will bear. Sometimes that is face value, sometimes it is much more.

That is life in a market society, supply and demand. If you don't want to pay, don't .

If you don't want to go to jail, don't break the law and commit fraud. That is life in a law and order society.

[fellowtraveller]

The MTS Centre is the 19th busiest facility in the world and the third busiest in Canada

I had no idea that Hee Haw was on tour that often.

It always surprises me that law abiding people on the right seem to have no problem breaking the law

Does that mean "people on the left" don't buy pot or scalped tickets? Maybe it is just Tories, that must be the problem.

If you don't want to go to jail, don't break the law and commit fraud.

He isn't breaking the law or committing fraud. Are all 'people on the left so eager' to imprison innocent citizens?

Tour operators charge huge sums for ticket packages and have done so forever. I bet they do in Manitoba too, if anybody of interest ever played there. Enquire at your local travwel agency on tickets and accomodation for the Super Bowl... you'll finsd that the sum far exceeds the parts......yet the Winniopeg police have not arrested thoise people.

Goods and services are almost all subject to supply and demand, but not tickets. Odd.

Edited March 3, 2009 by fellowtraveller

[jdobbin]

I had no idea that Hee Haw was on tour that often.

I'll be sure to make sure we get you tickets. I know how you must miss it. That and Ricky Martin.

Does that mean "people on the left" don't buy pot or scalped tickets? Maybe it is just Tories, that must be the problem.

He isn't breaking the law or committing fraud. Are all 'people on the left so eager' to imprison innocent citizens?

I think the right assumes everyone on the left is breaking the law.

Just pointing out that the some on the right seems to have little regard for the law when it comes to scalping. It is a law on the book and various Conservative governments have had the opportunity to remove the law and didn't. I'm afraid you can't have it both ways. Either it is a law or it is not.

Tour operators charge huge sums for ticket packages and have done so forever. I bet they do in Manitoba too, if anybody of interest ever played there. Enquire at your local travwel agency on tickets and accomodation for the Super Bowl... you'll finsd that the sum far exceeds the parts......yet the Winniopeg police have not arrested thoise people.

I think you'll find the law applies to all and any events in Winnipeg. The Superbowl is not in Winnipeg this year.

Don't know how the law applies in your area but I'm sure you're thankful that Monster Truck comes around often enough that ticket scalpers don't feel it is worth it to grab the bulk of what is being sold.

Goods and services are almost all subject to supply and demand, but not tickets. Odd.

Change the law then but don't complain when it applies in this case. It isn't a theoretical break with the law, it is an actual violation of it.

[DrGreenthumb]

I had no idea that Hee Haw was on tour that often.

Does that mean "people on the left" don't buy pot or scalped tickets? Maybe it is just Tories, that must be the problem.

He isn't breaking the law or committing fraud. Are all 'people on the left so eager' to imprison innocent citizens?

No its just that people on the left don't go around thumping their chests, dragging their knuckles and preaching about "law and order", mandaTORY minimums, privatizing the prison "industry" all the while turning a blind eye to the "crimes" that they or their friends commit.

I guess all of us lefty pot smokers should just obey all the laws we find stupid, that you force on US, and just ignore it when right wingers break election laws, tax laws and ticket scalping laws?

I guess the laws YOU don't like are unjust and do not deserve to be followed right?

[fellowtraveller]

No its just that people on the left don't go around thumping their chests, dragging their knuckles and preaching about "law and order", mandaTORY minimums, privatizing the prison "industry" all the while turning a blind eye to the "crimes" that they or their friends commit.

I guess all of us lefty pot smokers should just obey all the laws we find stupid, that you force on US, and just ignore it when right wingers break election laws, tax laws and ticket scalping laws?

I guess the laws YOU don't like are unjust and do not deserve to be followed right?

But you still buy and sell scalped tickets for Naomi Klein extravaganzas, right? Sorry, left?

I love how you get all condescending and pigeonholing, classifying pot smokers and scalpers and concert attendees as left and right, like any of that means anything.

Entertainment is a business. Like it or not.

[DrGreenthumb]

But you still buy and sell scalped tickets for Naomi Klein extravaganzas, right? Sorry, left?

I love how you get all condescending and pigeonholing, classifying pot smokers and scalpers and concert attendees as left and right, like any of that means anything.

Entertainment is a business. Like it or not.

So is dealing drugs, what's your point?

[fellowtraveller]

Try and relax, DrObvious.

Smoke a joint, perhaps.

[August1991]

I'm sometimes wrong, and sometimes cryptic. Sorry.

It doesn't have anything to do with the Eagles aside from the fact that they are the performers. It has to do with Ticketmaster using anticompetitive practices and fraud to jack up prices in violation of Canadian laws.

Sorry, Dobbin. It has everything to do with the Eagles, or their producers.

Why does Ticketmaster exist? They're an intermediary.

Ticket prices are too low. For some concerts with limited tickets, people are willing to pay much more than the ticket price.

KeyStone, thank you for getting my point.

----

For whatever reason, the Eagles or their promoters choose to sell tickets below the market price. Why? Dunno, but rock concerts seek an audience and want to make noise, no? [since everyone is talking about bubbles now, it seems to me that concert promoters prefer bubbles to stability. And what better way to start a bubble than underprice the tickets?]

I wouldn't be surprised if Ticketmaster is offering a kickback to The Eagles or their producers.

I read a story about Mick Jagger who chose a different producer/promoter for a particular tour after working with someone else for several years. When asked about the change, Jagger answered "he offered a million dollars more".

Anyway, I don't think the government, bureaucrats, politicians, Stephen Harper, Gilles Duceppe or people like me should get involved in this. I know little about rock concerts and I had to look up The Eagles on wikipedia.

Edited March 5, 2009 by August1991

[jdobbin]

Sorry, Dobbin. It has everything to do with the Eagles, or their producers.

Why does Ticketmaster exist? They're an intermediary.

Who are supposed to be simply distributors. However, they are using their website fraudulently by redirecting people to an off site and making it unclear that the prices has suddenly jumped.

There are several civil lawsuits going on and many legal analysts are saying that Ticketmaster might not have a leg to stand on.

Anyway, I don't think the government, bureaucrats, politicians, Stephen Harper, Gilles Duceppe or people like me should get involved in this. I know little about rock concerts and I had to look up The Eagles on wikipedia.

That is all well and good about getting the government out. It is still a law on the books and while you might not like it, it is there and can and should be enforced.

Edited March 5, 2009 by jdobbin