Federal government will run a $34-billion deficit in 2009?

[jdobbin]

I never denied it happened.

You denied the numbers just like the priest did. And now the Pope is forcing him to recant or his out as priest. Have you recanted?

[madmax]

It was because Tina Keeper was not that good as local constituency work and had Dion around her ankles as an anchor.

The visual of Dion around a womans ankles.... I can see the cartoonist now. :)

[Mr.Canada]

Bev Desjarlais voted against SSM as she is Catholic. This was against Layton's party line even though it was a free vote. She was pushed out after 9 years as a NDP MP. She was kicked out over 1 vote in 9 years. Layton = control freak.

Edited February 4, 2009 by Mr.Canada

[Mr.Canada]

You denied the numbers just like the priest did. And now the Pope is forcing him to recant or his out as priest. Have you recanted?

No one can prove the numbers one way or another. History is written by the victors and always embellished.

Provide the census numbers pre and post war then at the birth or Israel please.

Edited February 4, 2009 by Mr.Canada

[ToadBrother]

No one can prove the numbers one way or another. History is written by the victors and always embellished.

They can make reasonable estimates, and those estimates range between 5 and 6 million, based largely on census figures from before the War. I realize you probably adopted this "we can't know" position because you're probably trying to guess one step ahead of Benedict XVI, but now that he's basically told that evil bastard he let back in the Church to stop being an evil bastard, you, in turn, can stop looking like one.

[Mr.Canada]

They can make reasonable estimates, and those estimates range between 5 and 6 million, based largely on census figures from before the War. I realize you probably adopted this "we can't know" position because you're probably trying to guess one step ahead of Benedict XVI, but now that he's basically told that evil bastard he let back in the Church to stop being an evil bastard, you, in turn, can stop looking like one.

Questioning things is evil?

Provide the census numbers pre and post war then at the birth or Israel please.

[ToadBrother]

Questioning things is evil?

No, but siding with a Holocaust Denier is.

Provide the census numbers pre and post war then at the birth or Israel please.

Is there some particular reason that you can't do this yourself, after all, it has nothing to do with any claim of mine?

Look, your own holy leader has said to this vile, vicious and evil man to back down, so it's safe for you to go "Whoops, I was wrong." Alternatively, you in turn, can adopt and evil, vile and vicious line if you wish, and mark yourself forever. I think you need to take a step back here, before you respond again, and think very carefully about this.

[Mr.Canada]

No, but siding with a Holocaust Denier is.

Is there some particular reason that you can't do this yourself, after all, it has nothing to do with any claim of mine?

Look, your own holy leader has said to this vile, vicious and evil man to back down, so it's safe for you to go "Whoops, I was wrong." Alternatively, you in turn, can adopt and evil, vile and vicious line if you wish, and mark yourself forever. I think you need to take a step back here, before you respond again, and think very carefully about this.

Like you always say to me. You made the claim so back it up please. Qualify it.

[Mr.Canada]

No, but siding with a Holocaust Denier is.

Is there some particular reason that you can't do this yourself, after all, it has nothing to do with any claim of mine?

Look, your own holy leader has said to this vile, vicious and evil man to back down, so it's safe for you to go "Whoops, I was wrong." Alternatively, you in turn, can adopt and evil, vile and vicious line if you wish, and mark yourself forever. I think you need to take a step back here, before you respond again, and think very carefully about this.

Like you always say to me. You made the claim so back it up please. Qualify it.

Provide the census numbers pre and post war then at the birth or Israel please.

[capricorn]

I do actually.

There have been numerous budgets over the years where the PM or Opposition leaders have allowed their members to be absent rather than vote for a budget they opposed or supported. In other words, the budget was whipped for some and not for others.

Up until your request for a citation that it was a first for a party to exempt some of the members from a whipped vote, the discussion was in the context of the budget vote which was held IN THE HOUSE.

Absent members don't cast a vote since they are not in the House at the time of the vote. The situation you present is not applicable to that which was being discussed.

Would you like to try again by introducing another technicality?

[jdobbin]

Up until your request for a citation that it was a first for a party to exempt some of the members from a whipped vote, the discussion was in the context of the budget vote which was held IN THE HOUSE.

Absent members don't cast a vote since they are not in the House at the time of the vote. The situation you present is not applicable to that which was being discussed.

Would you like to try again by introducing another technicality?

It isn't a technicality. Whipped means that members are required to vote for it. If they are absent for no reason than they are opposed, it means it is a partial whipped vote (if they receive no punishment). We have seen quite a few times where members simply walked stepped out during the vote when it was whipped to avoid public scrutiny of party solidarity.

In any event, why do you care if it is a partial whipped vote? It is what Reform party members used to ask for. Freedom to vote how you feel.

[jdobbin]

No one can prove the numbers one way or another. History is written by the victors and always embellished.

Provide the census numbers pre and post war then at the birth or Israel please.

Already provided you with a lot of those links. And the Pope has said anyone trying to downplay the Holocaust by saying the numbers are embellished should recant. You aren't so you can't be a very good Catholic.

[Mr.Canada]

It isn't a technicality. Whipped means that members are required to vote for it. If they are absent for no reason than they are opposed, it means it is a partial whipped vote (if they receive no punishment). We have seen quite a few times where members simply walked stepped out during the vote when it was whipped to avoid public scrutiny of party solidarity.

In any event, why do you care if it is a partial whipped vote? It is what Reform party members used to ask for. Freedom to vote how you feel.

A few hours ago you said partial whipped votes don't exist now you say they do, so which is it?

Already provided you with a lot of those links. And the Pope has said anyone trying to downplay the Holocaust by saying the numbers are embellished should recant. You aren't so you can't be a very good Catholic.

Nope, I never downplayed anything or denied anything I simply want some neutral proof of the numbers. You ask for cites on everything yet you're saying I'm not allowed to? Hardly seems fair does it.

Edited February 5, 2009 by Mr.Canada

[jdobbin]

The visual of Dion around a womans ankles.... I can see the cartoonist now. :)

I had heard rumours that Keeper had not been keeping on top of her constituency work early. The NDP worked hard to reclaim the riding by working the grassroots.

It isn't enough for a member from Churchill to be an asset in the House, they have to be seen in that riding almost every day. It is probably why you hear more from the NDP member from Transcona and less from the NDP member from Churchill.

Edited February 5, 2009 by jdobbin

[jdobbin]

A few hours ago you said partial whipped votes don't exist now you say they do, so which is it?

Citation for me saying that?

Nope, I never downplayed anything or denied anything I simply want some neutral proof of the numbers. You ask for cites on everything yet you're saying I'm not allowed to? Hardly seems fair does it.

I gave you cites on it. You don't believe them. Why do you hate Jews so much when the Pope says for you to recant?

Edited February 5, 2009 by jdobbin

[Mr.Canada]

Citation for me saying that?

Ah I must say sorry to the good Doctor, it was madmax who said it. Back a few pages when madmax, capricorn and yourself were arguing. Anyhow I apologize as I was mistaken, sorry.

I gave you cites on it. You don't believe them. Why do you hate Jews so much when the Pope says for you to recant?

Dobbin, knock it off. You know I don't hate Jews, my great grandparents and my grandmother were Jews when they came to Canada. Ihave nothing to recant as I've said nothing contrary. I just asked for proof that no one can provide because all that exists are biased versions of it afaik.

[jdobbin]

Dobbin, knock it off. You know I don't hate Jews, my great grandparents and my grandmother were Jews when they came to Canada. Ihave nothing to recant as I've said nothing contrary. I just asked for proof that no one can provide because all that exists are biased versions of it afaik.

Yet the Pope won't stand for downplaying the numbers. Why do it?

[capricorn]

It isn't a technicality.

You're saying an absentee MP can be part of a whipped vote. Fair enough.

Maybe the 6 Liberal MPs will be absent on the budget implementation votes. Ignatieff has told them they must vote in favour and not move amendments.

Michael Ignatieff allowed his Newfoundland MPs to register a symbolic protest against the federal budget but he's insisting they now support legislation that will actually implement the measures they find so offensive.

---

During a closed-door caucus meeting Wednesday, sources said Ignatieff chided the Newfoundland MPs for speaking out publicly against the budget before consulting with him.

Four of the six had already announced their intention to vote against the budget by the time Ignatieff gave them dispensation to do so.

Moreover, sources said Ignatieff warned caucus he doesn't intend to relax discipline again in future.

"He said it was a one-time thing, alone, period, full stop, and for us not to get our hopes up too high because it would not happen again," said one caucus member.

But some MPs privately wonder if Newfoundland MPs might yet balk at supporting the budget implementation bill, testing Ignatieff's resolve once again.

Asked about the issue Wednesday, one of the Newfoundlanders, Scott Simms, would say only: "We shall see."

http://www.thestar.com/News/Canada/article/582483

Will Bloc Newfoundland once again flex its muscles? Maybe Premier Williams can advise them on the course to take.

[jdobbin]

You're saying an absentee MP can be part of a whipped vote. Fair enough.

Maybe the 6 Liberal MPs will be absent on the budget implementation votes. Ignatieff has told them they must vote in favour and not move amendments.

I can see them being absent.

Move amendments and it is likely that Ignatieff and party brass can't trust them on other critical issues. They might be suspended.

Our system is set up for party discipline. Ignatieff has allowed them to present their opposition. However, the party has deemed letting the budget pass with its amendment as good for country.

[Mr.Canada]

Yet the Pope won't stand for downplaying the numbers. Why do it?

I'm not downplaying numbers Dobbin, cut it out. I'm asking for the same courtesy afforded to others who make claims on this board. Figures must be qualified with citations, we cannot believe it simply because you said it's true.

EDIT- As a side note this game we're playing is getting a bit silly.

Edited February 5, 2009 by Mr.Canada

[ToadBrother]

I'm not downplaying numbers Dobbin, cut it out. I'm asking for the same courtesy afforded to others who make claims on this board. Figures must be qualified with citations, we cannot believe it simply because you said it's true.

EDIT- As a side note this game we're playing is getting a bit silly.

The numbers, with citations, have been provided. The Nazis killed between 5 and 6 million Jews, and about that many other people. The Pope has ordered Williamson to retract (I don't know what good that's supposed to do), but here you are, Mr. Righteous Catholic, defying the head of your church. Just goes to show you, the loudest proclaimers of their faith are the first ones to dispense with it when it becomes inconvenient.

[jdobbin]

I'm not downplaying numbers Dobbin, cut it out. I'm asking for the same courtesy afforded to others who make claims on this board. Figures must be qualified with citations, we cannot believe it simply because you said it's true.

Well, Adolf Eichmann said Jewish dead numbered 6 million. You figure he might be in a position to estimate, right?

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GEReichmann.htm

In 1944 Eichmann told Heinrich Himmler that about six million Jews had been disposed of, four million of these having died of "natural causes" in the camps and another two million being killed in the gas chambers. He told one of his officers that: "I'll die happily with the certainty of having killed almost six million Jews."

Yad Vashem has the names of 4 million of the dead.

Raul Hilberg uses German recorded numbers.

http://articles.latimes.com/2007/aug/07/local/me-hilberg7

He contested the widely accepted view that some 6 million Jews were killed, arguing the number was closer to 5.1 million

Lucy Dawidowicz used pre-war census numbers and came close to the 6 million number that Eichmann said.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:The_War_...e_JewsTable.png

The Pope accepts the numbers outlined by the census data of people like Dawidowicz.

It is time for denialists to accept that between 5 and 6 millions Jews died.

EDIT- As a side note this game we're playing is getting a bit silly.

The Pope wants the priest who doubts that many Jews died to recant. Do you want the Pope to give you these citations because that is what the Vatican did today or are not not following?

[Moonbox]

Wow I'm amazed at how this thread derailed into a stupid and completely unrelated argument

[jdobbin]

Wow I'm amazed at how this thread derailed into a stupid and completely unrelated argument

And yet you are drawn to it like a moth to the flame.

Oh, by the way, The Tories are running huge deficits.

[Moonbox]

And yet you are drawn to it like a moth to the flame.

Because a few days ago I was rather interested in a discussion I was having with madmax and I wanted to see where it went from there. Instead I find that you've derailed the thread and baited some posters into one of your anal citation arguments. Typical jdobbin.

See:

Citation for me saying that?

Don't be stupid. You asked for a citation on a passing and cynical remark made by capricorn. Either you were disputing it to be true or you're just asking for citation to annoy and inconvenience people.

capricorn, as far as I could tell, was saying a partially whipped vote excluding a whole province of MP's is unusual and as far as he knew unprecedented.

It's YOUR responsibility to disprove that on your own. You're showing either an inability or unwillingness to perform even simple critical thinking if you can't see why. Over the last few months I've come to expect that from you.

Edited February 5, 2009 by Moonbox