Ottawa weighs asset sale to avoid deficit

guyser · November 18, 2008

This is utter tripe...lol.

Of course you say that. You have to.

If GM could pay people $15/hr they would've done it by now but they cannot do that. Without the union no cars would roll out of the big 3. Not bs, FACT.

Fact is you know that is not true. GM can t do it because the unions and other laws prevent it.

If GM could fire every person on the line today, by friday they would slowly start churning cars out.

I thought you said you had "Brains, body and charm" ? Two of the three are missing.

Your pick.

Mr.Canada · November 18, 2008

Of course you say that. You have to.
Fact is you know that is not true. GM can t do it because the unions and other laws prevent it.

If GM could fire every person on the line today, by friday they would slowly start churning cars out.

I thought you said you had "Brains, body and charm" ? Two of the three are missing.

Your pick.

Lol, guyser, are you purposely this naive?

And these thousands of fired workers would just go home and sulk?

All the parts for a car aren't stored on site they roll in on trucks as the line is running. The parts are stored at logistics companies very close to the plant. From the time a certain part is loaded on a truck to the line is about 20 minutes or the line shuts down. Each truck load carries a different part set into racks in a certain order depending on what is being fabricated.

The union workers would blockade the entrance to the plant guaranteed. Not to mention the violence that would occur to anyone who tried to cross the line.

The province can't stop a couple hundred natives from blockading and yet you think that the government can stop thousands of upset workers?

LOL. Come off it guys.

M.Dancer · November 18, 2008

Lol, guyser, are you purposely this naive?
And these thousands of fired workers would just go home and sulk?

All the parts for a car aren't stored on site they roll in on trucks as the line is running. The parts are stored at logistics companies very close to the plant. From the time a certain part is loaded on a truck to the line is about 20 minutes or the line shuts down. Each truck load carries a different part set into racks in a certain order depending on what is being fabricated.

The union workers would blockade the entrance to the plant guaranteed. Not to mention the violence that would occur to anyone who tried to cross the line.

The province can't stop a couple hundred natives from blockading and yet you think that the government can stop thousands of upset workers?

LOL. Come off it guys.

So you are saying its the Unions that control GM.

guyser · November 18, 2008

So you are saying its the Unions that control GM.

Thank you Monsieur Dancer.

Look Mr C , absence of any retaliatory occurence on the workers part (as if I really needed to spell that out--maybe for you I guess I had to) my scenario would work.

You forget that Reagan fired all the Air Traffic Controllers, 11,000 IIRC. Too bad auto workers arent fed employees in the US.

Smallc · November 18, 2008

If only that were true
"Tens of thousands of Canadians have already had service to their rural mail boxes cut off, including 200 in Ottawa. The number nationally could reach the hundreds of thousands if Canada Post has its way.

CP is spending a half billion dollars to alleviate what amounts to 400 complaints, most of them ergonomic problems, but they dress it up as potential accidents.

CP is BS'ing us on this.

Ergonomics issues are serious. As I am in training to become a health and safety practitioner, I am now quite aware of this fact.

These people still have mail service, they just may not get that mail delivered to their door. With UPS of Fedex, they may not have any service at all.

Smallc · November 18, 2008

I beg to differ. UPS will deliver to your door....even on Saturday.

I beg to differ. Where I live now, Canada post will deliver a parcel to my door on Saturday or sometimes even Sunday just as Fedex, Puralator, and DHL will. UPS might get the stuff to me.....if they don't lose it like they have almost every time I've shipped with them.

Where I live normally, no courier will go. That is the case for numerous rural communities with a 0 or O in the second part of their postal code.

Think of it this way. If Canada post is profitable, its lowering your taxes.

Edited November 18, 2008 by Smallc

M.Dancer · November 18, 2008

With UPS of Fedex, they may not have any service at all.

Of course they would. You pay to deliver, it get delivered.

Mind you, Canadians might be relieved by all the 3rd class junk mail that FEd Ex and alike wouldn't touch at the rates currently paid....

Smallc · November 19, 2008

Of course they would. You pay to deliver, it get delivered.

I'm sorry, but your wrong. They do not deliver to rural areas.

Edited November 19, 2008 by Smallc

Mr.Canada · November 19, 2008

Thank you Monsieur Dancer.
Look Mr C , absence of any retaliatory occurence on the workers part (as if I really needed to spell that out--maybe for you I guess I had to) my scenario would work.

You forget that Reagan fired all the Air Traffic Controllers, 11,000 IIRC. Too bad auto workers arent fed employees in the US.

I'm much smarter and quicker than you are. If that's a sore spot for you I'm sorry. No need to lash out with quips about things that have nothing to do with what we're talking about.

jdobbin · November 19, 2008

We don't need government to be business owners. This isn't a communist country where the state controls the assets. I want to see them all sold off and end the private sector bailouts, corporate welfare.

Government shouldn't be selling at firesale prices to stop going into deficit.

If there is a case to sell assets, do so that is advantageous to the taxpayer.

Put very strict controls onto how much can be imported and have the majority of our goods made in Canada. As there would be no other choice. Take care of Canadians first, this would ensure jobs if we had a more nationalist protectionist system like many other countries do.

That isn't a very conservative view.

If each country takes that view as they did in the 1930s, you go into Depression.

M.Dancer · November 19, 2008

I'm sorry, but your wrong. They do not deliver to rural areas.

Why do you assume something which is demonsratably false? If I pay to have something delivered, they will deliver it.

Delivery Area 100 percent of Canada.

http://fedex.com/us/services/options/intl/...stribution.html

Amendment No. 1: FedEx Express Terms and Conditions
Effective October 29, 2008, the FedEx Express Service Guide (Canadian Version, Sept. 15, 2008) is amended as follows:

Page 59, "Pickup and Delivery Service", paragraph (d) is amended as follows:

ORIGINAL:

(d) Cartage agents are utilized for pickups and deliveries in extended service areas. Depending on the final destination and whether the shipment is intra-Canada or international, a surcharge will be applied. A higher surcharge will be applied for shipments picked up from or delivered to the Northwest Territories, Nunavut and Yukon. Shipments picked up from or delivered to Alaska, Hawaii or Puerto Rico will be subject to a surcharge for a FedEx® Envelope or FedEx® Pak or a surcharge for FedEx® International Economy or FedEx International Priority™ shipments (other than FedEx® Envelope or FedEx® Pak). See details in the FedEx Express Rates book, or call FedEx Customer Service at 1.800.GoFedEx 1.800.463.3339.

http://fedex.com/ca_english/services/servi...amendments.html

Is there any place more rural than Baffin Island?

jdobbin · November 19, 2008

Nope.
Ask me if the City of Toronto should ban them? Yes, tomorrow in fact. Unions cost this city a fortune, not just in salaries, but in how and who does a job. We all know about this.

I can't speak to your knowledge of Toronto city workers. I do know that in Winnipeg we haven't had a labour strike of city workers since the Winnipeg General Strike. Our taxes have been frozen for longer than almost any major city in Canada.

The union has to compete on bids for a lot of city work and often has a better price.

It isn't perfect but it does seem to be competitive.

I don't know what is happening in Ontario and whether unions are totally to blame for the economic failure as some seem to think.

I know that poor treatment of workers compelled the formation of unions. Some says changes in labour law means that there is no need for unions anymore but there are large gaps in that area that keep unions from completely fading away.

I know that one thing is for certain is that when it is a race to the bottom on wages, that it doesn't matter how low you go.

I don't know that eliminating unions would make GM a better car company.

guyser · November 19, 2008

I'm much smarter and quicker than you are.

So why have you been schooled by not one but two people in this thread?

If that's a sore spot for you I'm sorry. No need to lash out with quips about things that have nothing to do with what we're talking about.

Spoken like one who has been schooled, or a union lackey.

Take your pick.

Look, GM cant fire workers, we know that, but I said if they could they would be up and running soon enough.

I will remember to lower my expectations when posting in reply to you.

Smallc · November 19, 2008

Why do you assume something which is demonsratably false? If I pay to have something delivered, they will deliver it.
http://fedex.com/us/services/options/intl/...stribution.html

http://fedex.com/ca_english/services/servi...amendments.html

Is there any place more rural than Baffin Island?

Either they hand off to Canada post or Grey Hound (which they always do) or they're lying. I cannot have a package delivered to Waterhen Manitoba by courier. I am quite aware of this fact and it is true no matter what you say about it. It is always handed off to either Grey Hound (which also doesn't come to Waterhen) or Canada Post.

guyser · November 19, 2008

I can't speak to your knowledge of Toronto city workers. I do know that in Winnipeg we haven't had a labour strike of city workers since the Winnipeg General Strike. Our taxes have been frozen for longer than almost any major city in Canada.

Neither have we. But that is because we have a Mayor that gives them everything they want.

I don't know what is happening in Ontario and whether unions are totally to blame for the economic failure as some seem to think.

They are not to blame for all our ills. But they sure do eat up a ton of money that could be used better. No private firms can get in the door to deliver services cheaper and better.

I know that one thing is for certain is that when it is a race to the bottom on wages, that it doesn't matter how low you go.
I don't know that eliminating unions would make GM a better car company.

I dont want slave wages either. A fair wage is just that. But in this city it goes beyond fiar wages. And it isnt just union peeps, the city managers are paid obscenely and should be re-slotted into a lower wage point.

GM may not be a better car company, but they would be able to respond better if they werent weighed down with something like $2500 per car for benefits and retirment packages that the union fought for.

I am not ssaying they should renege. But going forward they should be able to say look, here is the problem "sector C installs tires and we pay $34 an hour + bennies, and that work should be done for no more than $15 + bens.

Historically I know the reasons they are around. But they have gone from altruism to albatross.

M.Dancer · November 19, 2008

Either they hand off to Canada post or Grey Hound (which they always do) or they're lying. I cannot have a package delivered to Waterhen Manitoba by courier. I am quite aware of this fact and it is true no matter what you say about it. It is always handed off to either Grey Hound (which also doesn't come to Waterhen) or Canada Post.

So it gets delivered....

Smallc · November 19, 2008

So it gets delivered....

Because of Canada post....and no it doesn't get delivered. In the case of Canada Post, you have to pick it up at the post office. In the case of Grey Hound, you often have to drive for quite a distance.

Your usually right, and I usually agree with you, but not this time.

jdobbin · November 19, 2008

Neither have we. But that is because we have a Mayor that gives them everything they want.

Don't know all that much in detail about Toronto's mayor.

The tax freeze in Manitoba has gone on for one left of center mayor in Winnipeg and one right of center mayor. There has been contracting out but the unions have also competed for work and won contracts. If one city can do it, maybe others can as well.

I think the important thing for cities is to ensure competitiveness for city services. Once private or public forces think they have you over a barrel we see the taxpayer suffer.

They are not to blame for all our ills. But they sure do eat up a ton of money that could be used better. No private firms can get in the door to deliver services cheaper and better.

Then Toronto needs better, should have better.

I dont want slave wages either. A fair wage is just that. But in this city it goes beyond fiar wages. And it isnt just union peeps, the city managers are paid obscenely and should be re-slotted into a lower wage point.

Managers are union?

GM may not be a better car company, but they would be able to respond better if they werent weighed down with something like $2500 per car for benefits and retirment packages that the union fought for.

If it is that important to them, they should support complete free trade and move overseas. End all manufacturing in the U.S. and Canada.

I am not ssaying they should renege. But going forward they should be able to say look, here is the problem "sector C installs tires and we pay $34 an hour + bennies, and that work should be done for no more than $15 + bens.

If we support complete free trade on everything in manufacturing companies can leave immediately. Even the absence of a union won't matter.

Historically I know the reasons they are around. But they have gone from altruism to albatross.

Then if you want to break the unions, full support for complete free trade should be supported.

Argus · November 19, 2008

Nope.
Ask me if the City of Toronto should ban them? Yes, tomorrow in fact. Unions cost this city a fortune, not just in salaries, but in how and who does a job. We all know about this.

Drivel. It isn't the fault of your city unions that your city is run by baboons. It's the fault of your voters who elected those baboons.

Ottawa is no better. Our city staff get extremely generous pay and benefits and there are far too many of them. Is that the unions fault? Nope. It's the voters fault for electing imbecilic morons to city council year after year.

As for the big three, their employees get absurdly high salaries given the level of skill and education their jobs require. Is that the unions fault? Nope. The management of the big three has been consistent in its absolute incompetence for decades. GM's bureacracy used to be compared - unfavourably - to the kremlin. Ford's HQ is called the place where innovation goes to die. Small wonder incompetent management has let its wages get out of control.

But don't blame the unions. They're doing their jobs, which is to get the best agreements, pay and benefit for their workers they can. It's the fault of stupid, short-sighted management.

Edited November 19, 2008 by Argus

madmax · November 19, 2008

Nice going. Asset sales when the market is down is not exactly the best time to sell.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...y/politics/home

The Conservatives sold off assests in Ontario for a song to balance the budget when he was a Provincial MPP.

For more fun on this, read the Provincial Forums and the 407 highway.

guyser · November 19, 2008

Drivel. It isn't the fault of your city unions that your city is run by baboons. It's the fault of your voters who elected those baboons.

Well, drivel is a bit over the top, but you are more right than wrong. We have elected baboons, or worse and it is incumbent on them to make things right. But it aint gonna happen.

As for the big three, their employees get absurdly high salaries given the level of skill and education their jobs require. Is that the unions fault? Nope. The management of the big three has been consistent in its absolute incompetence for decades. GM's bureacracy used to be compared - unfavourably - to the kremlin. Ford's HQ is called the place where innovation goes to die. Small wonder incompetent management has let its wages get out of control.

If the mfg'ers could do something about it, such as hold out and break the strikers, that would be all well and good, but they cannot hold out, and cannot decertify them either. Yes mngmt needs to play long term and they havent, bot in the suto sector and in the city sector.

But don't blame the unions. They're doing their jobs, which is to get the best agreements, pay and benefit for their workers they can. It's the fault of stupid, short-sighted management.

I dont blame the unions entirely.However, the city needs to run and the workers know they have the city over a barrel. They are not stupid, no garbage strikes in January since frozen garbage is no ones concern so strike in July when maximum stink can be applied. Same goes for TTC et al.

But the city cannot fire the strikers, and that should be corrected.

So yes, you are correct in the unions are not entirely to blame, but they sure as hell are not as innocent as they make themselves to be.

guyser · November 19, 2008

The Conservatives sold off assests in Ontario for a song to balance the budget when he was a Provincial MPP.
For more fun on this, read the Provincial Forums and the 407 highway.

But its such a nice highway and you love it ........hehehehehehe

Oleg Bach · November 19, 2008

If these corporate unionist had their way they would be working on the essembly line for 80 dollars an hour watching the robotics at their liesure - and if upper middle management had their way they would attempt to make the guys on the line work of 5 dollars an hour if they could - and if upper management had it's way - they would just take the pension fund and run like rabbits to some sweet island. :lol:

Mr.Canada · November 19, 2008

Many of the unionized workers make way too much money per hour for sure and I know guyser will agree with me on that one but many unionized workers are paid fairly and justly. City workers and autoworkers are the two I think of when I think about it.

However Argus is 100% correct. It's the unions job to push for forever higher benefit packages and the establishments job to shoot low. Imho the establishments give in way too easily and these two wage groups are way too high.

A fair wage for these two groups should be $32/hr at top rate, which would take 5 years to get to. City workers and the auto makers are two hard jobs that has a lot of public safety involved so they should be paid for it.

A journeyman electrician or plumber who works construction will make $32-35/ per hour and these two groups should be in line with that imo. As it is now they both make upwards of $10 in excess of that figure that I stated.

Oleg Bach · November 19, 2008

The globalist Nazis want us all eating fish head soup - I wish that was the case - but I believe that the whole system is on auto-pilot and there is no wizard behind the curtain..We are on our own and leaderless - someone had better perk up soon - my life will not need adjustment as the economy fails - I am a prototype and am used to poverty at this point - just keep up your appearance and you will surive - dental care may become an issue while you are busy getting by - and if you can afford it get the work done now - nothing more helpless that a poor person in pain.