IMF Counters Dion's Claims

[jdobbin]

First off that is not what he said, three weeks ago here is an actual quote (sept 15th):

Actual quote from where?

[Moonbox]

Jdobbin your arguing on this forum is getting a little silly. You've been stumped and the best response you could come up with was to request a direct quotation. For the sake of logical argument, the requirement for an actual quote lies squarely on YOUR shoulders. You need to prove that Harper said what you claimed because it's impossible for us to directly quote someone not saying something.

If you're going to ask someone to put the effort of a direct quotation, at least make the effort of refuting the points they've made.

Pretty much every point you've made in this thread has fallen flat. You're making some really worthless assumptions here and if I asked you to explain your position on what the Conservatives have specifically done to harm the economy and HOW any proposed Liberal plans would make ANY difference at this point you'd miserably fail.

I don't think many people are arguing that the Green Shift wouldn't be good for the environment. What everyone is arguing is that an income redistribution tax which makes life and business more expensive for the VAST majority of taxpayers and businesses will NOT encourage economic growth at this point and help us in ANY way to avert a canadian financial meltdown.

Explain to me what you think Dion has proposed that's going to do anything at this point to help anyone in Canada avoid a financial crisis that originated in another country. Please. Enlighten me. I don't want to hear your random one liners and your emotional appeals. I would really love to hear you go point for point explaining specifically how anything Dion has planned here is going to positively influence any of the forces slowing our economy down right now. Give it a shot.

I'm of the opinion that we do need to take steps towards helping the environment. What I question, however, is the unveiling of a dramatic new taxation scheme in the middle of one of the biggest financial crises in world history.

[independent]

Jdobbin your arguing on this forum is getting a little silly. You've been stumped and the best response you could come up with was to request a direct quotation. For the sake of logical argument, the requirement for an actual quote lies squarely on YOUR shoulders. You need to prove that Harper said what you claimed because it's impossible for us to directly quote someone not saying something.

If you're going to ask someone to put the effort of a direct quotation, at least make the effort of refuting the points they've made.

Pretty much every point you've made in this thread has fallen flat. You're making some really worthless assumptions here and if I asked you to explain your position on what the Conservatives have specifically done to harm the economy and HOW any proposed Liberal plans would make ANY difference at this point you'd miserably fail.

I don't think many people are arguing that the Green Shift wouldn't be good for the environment. What everyone is arguing is that an income redistribution tax which makes life and business more expensive for the VAST majority of taxpayers and businesses will NOT encourage economic growth at this point and help us in ANY way to avert a canadian financial meltdown.

Explain to me what you think Dion has proposed that's going to do anything at this point to help anyone in Canada avoid a financial crisis that originated in another country. Please. Enlighten me. I don't want to hear your random one liners and your emotional appeals. I would really love to hear you go point for point explaining specifically how anything Dion has planned here is going to positively influence any of the forces slowing our economy down right now. Give it a shot.

I'm of the opinion that we do need to take steps towards helping the environment. What I question, however, is the unveiling of a dramatic new taxation scheme in the middle of one of the biggest financial crises in world history.

Where I work less than a month ago they were going to start hiring to replace expected retirees. Just to today they announced cancellation of the hiring because of economic uncertainty. The article I read in the newspaper said there is no way to accurately predict the state of the economy because there is no history. Nothing like this has ever happened before. Everyone at work is very concerned about the economy and can not understand Harper ignoring the problem. What I do know is if the consumer stops buying we will be trouble. Voters are going to be asking themselves which of the parties is most likely to stabilize the economy. Harper needed to step up and say getting the economy back on track is going to be our number one priority. It really make no difference whether he thinks nothing has too be done. The public are not going to buy it. Companies no longer planning on hiring or laying people off are not buying it. The conservative owned newspaper in our area is not buying it. Even if the 33% of voters who still support the conservatives buy into Harpers plan or lack there of that will not be enough too save the the consumer confidence.

[White Doors]

aww... jdobbin is buoyed by the polls. He is in full campaign mode.

I'm happy you are out of your malaise jdob. Good to have you back again

[Argus]

And Tories don't do cynical things to get elected?

Yes, they all do, but not to this extent. Because this is actually endangering people's life's savings, this is endangering the economy. I'm not saying that the opposition crying "The Sky is falling!" on the news every night and in every interview and in every commercial is causing the panic, but it is certainly contributing to an atmosphere of panic. And that's screwing with people's lives and the economy in a big way. And you guys just DO NOT CARE. Because all that matters to you, all that has ever mattered to you, is YOU.

[Argus]

Everyone at work is very concerned about the economy and can not understand Harper ignoring the problem.

Given he predicted this last year, and began to put in place measures to combat it, including the progressively greater corporate tax cuts, I don't see how you can say he's ignoring it. Because he's not out there on the TV wringing his hands and weeping in front of you to show how sorry he is for your pain? Because he's not running around like a headless chicken like Dion and demanding meetings. Meetings!? Riiight. That's gonna solve everything. We'll just have a whole bunch of meetings!

And you find that reassuring, right?

What I do know is if the consumer stops buying we will be trouble.

Correct, which is why Harper is trying to project a calm head, and urging everyone to relax and not panic. Meanwhile, the parties you support are screaming and pulling out their hair and yelling for everyont to head for the hills.

Companies no longer planning on hiring or laying people off are not buying it.

I'm sure those companies will be much more incline to hire and expand after a whopping tax increase, eh?! That is how economics works, right?

[Argus]

It was Harper who said that the worst was over three weeks ago. He apparently doesn't know from a hole in the ground.

I think what Haper meant was that with the US move to prop up its major corporate financial institutions the wrost was over. What we're seeing now is raw panic which is being fanned by the Liberal party - and by you.

You don't care that Harper doesn't know where he is going or what is about what will happen. Your hatred of the Liberals means you will vote for Harper even as he continues to make cynical sales tax cuts.

Given he hasn't proposed any sales tax cuts I think your hatred for Harper means you're more than willing to hold your nose and join in with your fellow Liberal party operatives to try and spread the word "The sky is falling! Another Great Depression is coming! Sell everything! Run for the hills!"

That is your attitude these last few days, after all.

[Argus]

Canada has the soundest banking system on Earth, according to a survey of world banking experts.

Canada rated world's soundest banking system - survey

[Moonbox]

What I do know is if the consumer stops buying we will be trouble. Voters are going to be asking themselves which of the parties is most likely to stabilize the economy. Harper needed to step up and say getting the economy back on track is going to be our number one priority. It really make no difference whether he thinks nothing has too be done. The public are not going to buy it. Companies no longer planning on hiring or laying people off are not buying it. The conservative owned newspaper in our area is not buying it. Even if the 33% of voters who still support the conservatives buy into Harpers plan or lack there of that will not be enough too save the the consumer confidence.

What the public 'buys' is their perogative. I'm on these forums arguing that the centre or centre-right voter is making a wrong choice voting Liberal this election. The Liberals and NDP are most certainly fanning the flames of panic. Our economy has slowed, that's for sure. What the question now is what can realistically be done about the situation?

The economy of the US, where 75% of Canada's exports go, is tanking. Demand for Canadian exports will similarly tank. Carbon taxes are not going to encourage recovery and growth. Increased regulation AFTER the fact is not going to encourage growth. NDP corporate tax increases will DETER growth.

Anyone thinking that a Liberal or NDP government is somehow going to improve the economic situation given their platforms is way out to lunch. They have no plan either, at least none that means anything. They're just blowing hot air and trying to emotionally appeal to the worried voter. Harper may seem insensitive to you but that's because he's trying to calm people down and not exaggerate the situation. Investor and consumer panic hurts the economy just as much or more than the actual market conditions themselves.

[jdobbin]

I think what Haper meant was that with the US move to prop up its major corporate financial institutions the wrost was over. What we're seeing now is raw panic which is being fanned by the Liberal party - and by you.

What utter nonsense. Dion has nothing to do with what is happening on Bay Street. The thing that is influencing Bay Street is all the economists who are saying the U.S. is in recession, that Britain is in recession, that Europe is in recession and that Japan is in recession. The Liberals are not responsible for the world-wide credit crunch.

In fact, no politician in Canada takes the lionshare of blame for Bay Street's decline.

The criticism levelled at Harper from the Opposition is aimed at Harper's management of things under his control such as taxes and spending.

Given he hasn't proposed any sales tax cuts I think your hatred for Harper means you're more than willing to hold your nose and join in with your fellow Liberal party operatives to try and spread the word "The sky is falling! Another Great Depression is coming! Sell everything! Run for the hills!"

What do you call the reduction in the diesel sales tax? Yeesh.

Your love of Harper makes you overlook such things and you and your operatives run around and say "We're alright, the worst is over! No will will suffer!

That is your attitude these last few days, after all.

And your attitude is "I'm alright, Jack."

[jdobbin]

The fact of the matter is that Canada's position is still in jeopardy even according to Flaherty. As was noted by several analysts yesterday, there is no plan B to the world-wide recession as described in the IMF report.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories

"What we are looking at are measures that will increase liquidity in the Canadian market, which would help ensure the availability of credit for Canadian homeowners, for Canadian businesses, for car loans, for credit generally," Flaherty said.

This is exactly what several critics have been talking about these last few weeks. There is a lack of liquidity. The problem is that some Tory supporters think this is the perfect time to let a province like Ontario die. Politics as war.

The Bank of Canada lowered interest rates but the banks are hoarding the cash still. Is it fears because of Dion as some hyperpartisan Tory supporters are saying of their own plans to bail themselves out, hoard cash and sit things out till the government thinks of something different?

Edited October 9, 2008 by jdobbin

[independent]

Given he predicted this last year, and began to put in place measures to combat it, including the progressively greater corporate tax cuts, I don't see how you can say he's ignoring it. Because he's not out there on the TV wringing his hands and weeping in front of you to show how sorry he is for your pain? Because he's not running around like a headless chicken like Dion and demanding meetings. Meetings!? Riiight. That's gonna solve everything. We'll just have a whole bunch of meetings!

And you find that reassuring, right?

Correct, which is why Harper is trying to project a calm head, and urging everyone to relax and not panic. Meanwhile, the parties you support are screaming and pulling out their hair and yelling for everyont to head for the hills.

I'm sure those companies will be much more incline to hire and expand after a whopping tax increase, eh?! That is how economics works, right?

The company I work for has made record profits. They used that money to buy back stocks increasing shareholder value. They bought other companies and then laid off some of their staff. They increased bonuses too top executives. They moved their head office out of Canada to the states. They spent money on new equipment so they can do with less people. What they did is improve share holder value for the people that already have money. The amount of people working for the company have dropped dramatically. I really do not know in what world you live in where companies hire more people just because they have more cash available.

Edited October 9, 2008 by independent

[M.Dancer]

The company I work for has made record profits. They used that money to buy back stocks increasing shareholder value. They bought other companies and then laid off some of their staff. They increased bonuses too top executives. They moved their head office out of Canada to the states. They spent money on new equipment so they can do with less people. What they did is improve share holder value for the people that already have money. The amount of people working for the company have dropped dramatically. I really do not know in what world you live in where companies hire more people just because they have more cash available.

Good for them. This is how campanies should be managed. The equipment they bought will profit themselves and the company they bought it from. Always brightening to hear of well managed companies do what they are supposed to do.

[independent]

Good for them. This is how companies should be managed. The equipment they bought will profit themselves and the company they bought it from. Always brightening to hear of well managed companies do what they are supposed to do.

I agree with you completely. Just do not suggest that dropping taxes of big corporations will automatically increase employment. What creates employment is consumer confidence so companies are willing to expand. People worried about their jobs need more than Harper saying their are good buys in the stock market. They need a government willing too stimulate the economy to get it back on track. They need a government that cares about them and not just certain classes of people. Do I think Dion is capable on his own to fix the economy? NO. Do I think Dion will get the right people in place too find a plan to restore consumer confidence? Yes.

Edited October 9, 2008 by independent

[jdobbin]

They need a government that cares about them and not just certain classes of people.

This is the goal of tax credits: to pick winners and losers. It complicates the tax system and is never as good as an income tax cut.

[Argus]

The fact of the matter is that Canada's position is still in jeopardy even according to Flaherty. As was noted by several analysts yesterday, there is no plan B to the world-wide recession as described in the IMF report.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories

This is exactly what several critics have been talking about these last few weeks. There is a lack of liquidity.

But wait.... I'm confused. According to this Flaherty is actually doing stuff... didn't you say they were doing nothing at all? Didn't your leader say they were doing nothing? That your plan to uhm, talk with people and try and find out what to do was so much better?

[kengs333]

Canada has the soundest banking system on Earth, according to a survey of world banking experts.

Canada rated world's soundest banking system - survey

No thanks to the Conservatives. Had Harper had a majority, what kind of a mess would we be in...?

[Argus]

The company I work for has made record profits. They used that money to buy back stocks increasing shareholder value. They bought other companies and then laid off some of their staff. They increased bonuses too top executives. They moved their head office out of Canada to the states. They spent money on new equipment so they can do with less people. What they did is improve share holder value for the people that already have money. The amount of people working for the company have dropped dramatically. I really do not know in what world you live in where companies hire more people just because they have more cash available.

I live in this one. Not sure about yours. Yours seems to be one in which a single example holds for the entire universe at large. The point is that cutting taxes to business increases business profit and thus expansions. But this is on a macroeconomic scale. Your company bought new equipment. That's good for whoever sells that equipment. Your company bought back stock - which means, in effect, it transferred that money to other people who then turned around and spent it, or invested it in other companies. Whatever they did with the money still went out into the economy where it helpes create production and expansion and jobs. Too bad your company laid people off and left Canada, but do you honestly think Dion adding costs to business in the form of coercive CO2 taxes is going to encourage them to stay? As for shareholder value "to people who already have money" that's just about everyone, whether it's in the form of stocks, RRSPs, pension fund investments or whatever.

[Argus]

No thanks to the Conservatives. Had Harper had a majority, what kind of a mess would we be in...?

Well given he's implimented a number of new regulations stiffening oversight of the financial industry we'd be in uhm, the same position we are now, I suppose.

[jdobbin]

But wait.... I'm confused. According to this Flaherty is actually doing stuff... didn't you say they were doing nothing at all? Didn't your leader say they were doing nothing? That your plan to uhm, talk with people and try and find out what to do was so much better?

I'm sure you are confused. I never said he wasn't doing anything. I said that his plans generally wrong ones.

[Moonbox]

I'm sure you are confused. I never said he wasn't doing anything. I said that his plans generally wrong ones.

So....the business-friendly Harper government has HURT the economy. I see. I had it all wrong!

[jdobbin]

So....the business-friendly Harper government has HURT the economy. I see. I had it all wrong!

Is that the business friendly government who told investors that it wasn't worth investing in Ontario?

[Jobu]

Is that the business friendly government who told investors that it wasn't worth investing in Ontario?

More lies. When did Flaherty or anyone else in goverment say that?

"It discourages investment in the province of Ontario," he said. "If you're going to make a new business investment in Canada, and you're concerned about taxes, the last place you will go is the province of Ontario."

This is a fact. He never said it wasn't "worth" investing in Ontario or that it's the "last place" to invest. He stated a simple fact, that Ontario is not attractive to start up new business due to the high taxes. Do you disagree? I certainly wouldn't invest in Ontario, all things equal.

How's that Dion Kool Aid taste?

Edited October 9, 2008 by Jobu

[Moonbox]

Is that the business friendly government who told investors that it wasn't worth investing in Ontario?

Because Ontario has the 4th highest capital/investment tax rates of any country/state/province in the WORLD.

Dalton McGuinty is a joke and so is his government. He can thank John Tory for hilariously self-destructing last election.

Ontario, taxation-wise, IS one of the VERY WORST places in the world to invest new money. This is a FACT and I've explained this to you on numerous occasions. I'll do so again if you don't understand what capital taxes are but I doubt you'll take me up on that offer.

Dalton McGuinty and the people supporting his government can cry all they want about what Flaherty said but when foreign companies are looking for places to invest they see for themselves how bad the investment capital taxes are. THAT is what is going to affect their decisions, not some silly feud between Flaherty and poor wittle Dalton.

If we're bleeding jobs why on earth would you over-tax companies looking to invest new money and create new jobs???????????

[jdobbin]

If we're bleeding jobs why on earth would you over-tax companies looking to invest new money and create new jobs???????????

So the federal government tries to spur on business to avoid the province? Another reason to not elect a Tory government.

As I have shown you many times, there are a lot of other strong advantages in the business tax situation in Canada. The manufacturing sector has suffered more from the downward turn in the U.S. than anything else.

Edited October 9, 2008 by jdobbin