Peace with Fellow Man, Not With G-d Paramount

[jbg]

Deleted. I did not realize that the rules related to a largely dormant thread.

Happy New Year.

Edited October 2, 2008 by jbg

[jbg]

Oops. Duplicate post.

[Oleg Bach]

Once I spoke to an Israili youth. I asked him if he believed in God? He said no, but he believes in the state of Israel. I alway thought that the contract or covenant with God was paramount in order to get a few perks from the Christian world. The way I look at it - as in our greatest documents that state..."The supremacy of God and the rule of law their under" I hope I got that preamble correct. I believe that it does not really matter if you believe in God as far as law and order are concerned - putting God on top of the heap forces those participation in government or the judical system into a state of higher mindedness...If you don't make God paramount then someone will play god and that is always real irritating and troublesome.

The problem Israel has is economic..when you send a billion dollars to Israel in aid - and a few lousy bucks to Palistine - you create a slave master relationship - and the Jews who are so proud of challenging slavery and freeing themselves don't seem to mind having slaves.. No peace will come untill they stop behaving in a manner is oppressive. You can not expect peace and harmony with your Palistinian brothers and sisters if they get 50 bucks and you get 5 million...resentment will form...so the whole crisis is economic...for instance the Iraq situation - If they dumped 100 thousand dollars on every man woman and child in that torn nation..there would be no conflict -they would all be our shopping.

[jbg]

I do not want this thread to drift to the Arab-Israeli situation, but more than a "few bucks" are given to "Palestine". It's not the Jews' fault that the corrupt murderers squander it.

Otherwise what are your thoughts on the meaning of the Day of Atonement?

[Rue]

...the contract or covenant with God was paramount in order to get a few perks from the Christian world. The way I look at it - as in our greatest documents that state..."The supremacy of God and the rule of law their under" I hope I got that preamble correct. I believe that it does not really matter if you believe in God as far as law and order are concerned - putting God on top of the heap forces those participation in government or the judical system into a state of higher mindedness...If you don't make God paramount then someone will play god and that is always real irritating and troublesome.....

The problem Israel has is economic..when you send a billion dollars to Israel in aid - and a few lousy bucks to Palistine - you create a slave master relationship

Let me respond to both of the above concepts.

In regards to 1, the convenant with God Jews are supposed to have, is in fact an obligation they are alleged to have by what God told Jews. This obligation has been referred to as a covenant or in terms of Jews being chosen, but what we are talking about simply is a concept continually misrepresented and misunderstood by non Jews.

All we are talking about is the belief followers of the Jewish religion have that they have an obligation to God to worship God and nothing else. Jews believe God ordered us to obey this obligation. It is not something where jews engaged God in dialogue over a cup of coffee. In this concept it was commanded by God. This concept of God is a God that demands obedience unilaterally and can not be questioned.

Now as part of this demand Jews are supposed to worship God following certain processes and procedures and one of them is supposed to be through a nation, i.e., through a collective nation not just on an individual basis.

Trust that once again clarifies that concept so you don't keep rolling your eyes.

In regards to 2, you have once again completely missed the point. You lecture JBG that he has an obligation to send money to Palestinians. Really? Why? Because he is a Jew? Let's see now. If I follow your logic then, Jews must send money to Palestinians if they send money to Israel.

Now do you hold anyone else to that standard? Oh but of course not. See we Jews, we have a collective responsibility to Palestinians right? That is what you suggest.

So tell me following that logic do you send money to aboriginals because you are Canadian? Do you send money back to the country you were born in and have them pay it in repatriation to the descendants of people of that nation who they engaged in conflict with?

Well? Do you?

Where do you get off lecturing Jews on who they should be morally responsible for when you do not practice what you preach? Is that the Christian in you? I do note many people in the name of Christianity demand others follow a moral code they themselves do not...how about you...is that what you are doing, preaching to Jews to be Christian and full of tolerance for the people they are conflicted with? How righteous of you. Care to share us examples of how you do that so we can be inspired? I know a heathen like myself needs such inspiration.

Israel has a moral responsibility first and foremost to its citizens and for you to suggest otherwise is bullshit.

Secondly Israel's moral responsibility to assist Palestinians find peace does not magically mean no one else has a responsibility.

To start with Palestinians must first accept responsibility by renouncing terrorism as a means of political expression and instead of taking the money charities of given them to arm themselves with weapons and to finance terrorist activities invest it in their infrastructure.

Let's get real. Billions of dollars was sent by the world community including Israel and Jewish charities to Palestinian organizations. Where is it? Well we know what Arafat and his cronies did. Maybe you would like to go to Switzerland and France to see the banks it sits in and find out how it was stolen by corupt Palestinians.

Secondly why don't you save your preaching for the Arab League. Remember them. They are the ones that ordered Palestinians into refugee camps and told them they would never be allowed citizenship in any Arab League nation and would remain in these camps as a reminder to the world that they will stay their and multiply until Israel was disbanded.

This same Arab League that deliebrately created them and the camps they placed them in have not sent one penny to Palestinians not one damn penny. All the money has come from nations and charities other than Arab League nations, the very nations that created them. But do lecture us on why Jews must give Palestinians money but are remarkably silent about the Arab League.

Tell me what about Britain and France? Do you feel they have any moral responsibility for the roots of this conflict? How about Germany? Maybe you should try find out why these particular nations might merit some consideration for their roles.

Say here is another wild thought. Maybe you might want to find out just how much money the Israeli government has sent to the PLO and Hamas over the years in an attempt to live peacefully. How about you do that.

Maybe you would like to do some research and find out that in the past when Hamas renounced terrorism openly as a means of political expression, the Israeli government funded many charities in Palestine affiliated with Hamas and built roads, community centres, an elaborate greenhouse system to feed Palestinians, schools, government buildings and hospitals. Then maybe you might want to find out who blew all those things up.

My problem you see is I hate people who lecture me when their fly is undone and I can see all their short-comings Oleg.

Now as for you JBG, the Day of Atonement for me still has meaning. I reject all conventional and fundamentalist approaches to Judaism. I am far more a Buddist-Taoist-Unitarian in actual religious approach to the concept of being civil and at one with the thing beyond all things. I don't see God in the Old Testament sense of an abgry, forboding, vengeful authority that has tanrtrums and blasts people to shreds.

I also don't like stoning people for being gay nor am I into growing a beard and no I really do not like wearing black nor do I want women segregated from me and yes I do believe in engaging in sex other than to procreate and I believe there are many mystic traditions from Judaism that have been misplaced and shunted by conventional Jewish worship similiar to how the gnostic traditions of Christianity were misplaced and shunted to the side by a council hell bent on fusing paganism with Christianity to create a central organ of control.

To me religion is a personal and individual thing. I take no solace in worshipping in a crowd or organized manner. I find that too political and invariably subject to humans trying to dictate to others how to think and feel.

As a Jew I see it as a collective responsibility to remember the suffering of Jews. As a Jew the Day of Atonement means I should remember I am an idiot-asshole-imperfect and make mistakes and instead of hating myself for that, using it to learn humility and to remind me to try harder not to be such an ass. Its also a time to rememebr all the Jews that have suffered and who may suffer again if I do not remember.

God? To me it is an abstract concept I do not define other than the thing beyond and behind everything and anything-the reason patterns emerge from chaos-the concept that by exercising free choice and striving to be have positive prevail over negative, this creates this thing called God.

I am not so sure praying works for me. I need to be in the woods watching nature or seeing something in nature for it to connect to me. Chants don't work for me. The Kol Nidre music does. That deep melody most certainly does. I can hear all the sadness and misery but also the hope of better things to come.

[jbg]

Another High Holidays' thought (link):

Say unto them As I live saith the Lord GOD I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked but that the wicked turn from his way and live turn ye turn ye from your evil ways for why will ye die O house of Israel

[jdobbin]

This is cross posted in another forum.

http://www.republicanoperative.com/forums/...t-part-1-a.html

[jbg]

Deleted.

Edited October 2, 2008 by jbg

[jbg]

This is cross posted in another forum.

http://www.republicanoperative.com/forums/...t-part-1-a.html

My apologies. I did not mean to upset anyone.

Happy New Year to all.

Edited October 2, 2008 by jbg