Disenchanted with Liberals, Conservatives & NDP?

[kengs333]

The interesting thing is that the media seems to have shifted its focus to the Liberals, and as is generally believed the more media pays attention to a certain party the better they tend to do on election day. So it should be interesting to see if Dion can come through during the debates; despite his faltering English, if he can manage to present the Liberals as moderates between the extreme right and left wing, he may just be able to do it.

[PoliticalCitizen]

Of course it requires double blind placebo controlled studies to prove it works. If a placebo gets the same results, then obviously the difference had nothing to do with the herb. How do you determine what that effective dose even is, if the studies can't even show it works at all?

I'm not totally anti natural remedies. I use some. But I'm very carefull to keep abreast of the scientific data. If the data doesn't support effectiveness, I'm not spending dime one.

Science with all its concepts and methods is too young and superficial to be able not only to identify but even to admit the possibility of the root cause of most deseases.

The only truly effective department of medical science is post-traumatic surgery. For the most part the other departments are concentrating their efforts on dealing with the symptoms rather than the root cause.

Short term (a few generations) gains achieved by drugs such as antibiotics can bring long-term (many generations) adverse effects, such as weakened immune system and stronger bacteria.

This is not true either. Doing "something" is not better if there are more cost effective ways. It also requires that there actually is ""something that can be fixed, and that "something" does anything to specifically address it. Carbon tax does nothing to specifically address pollution. It's nebulous.

The funny part is, While people complain that the CPC are not doing enough to address the environment, they are the only party with actual specific pollution controls in their plan. The amount is small, but it's an actual figure, in legislation, not an ethereal projection based on potential tax income vs tax cuts.

What has the CPC done so far (other than not honouring Kyoto?)

[PoliticalCitizen]

Sad to hear that you've bought all of this "natural medicine" quackery. Ginseng and Ginkgo Biloba can cause harmful side effects in some users, and some natural cures, like St. John's Wort, can have adverse side effects; the difference is that these "Natural" medicines are unregulated drugs with no warning labels. And since they are in their natural form, they contain many other chemicals besides the active ingredient that is supposed to have some health benefits. And they are classified as food products, so there is little, if any product testing or analysis of contents.

The suppliers have been known to spike their wonder elixirs with caffeine, codeine and as a personal anecdote: my older brother was taking a "natural" hair growth tonic, which was later discovered to have been fraudulently spiked with minoxidil -- some natural remedy! If he just picked up a bottle of Rogaine, he would have got the same drug with the appropriate medical warnings.

I'm not trying to defend the manufacturers of the herbal extract pills or their lack of quality control.

But since the "Natural" products are indeed not (or not supposed to be) synthesized they do not need the same stringent rules and regulations.

Just as any food product they should be tested for quality and contents.

On this front I'm not just a speaker - I've been taking anywhere from 8 to 12 different "natural" and "food supplement" type of pills daily during the last 4 years, ever since I quit smoking. My overall well-being and energy levels have improved significantly.

But I'm not out to sell this stuff. Just like with food - it's everyone's personal choice.

[PoliticalCitizen]

Yes the gas companies are draining our wallets the worst I agree BUT your sarcasm quite frankly sucked. Considering Climate Change is all a bunch of BS becasue it is not us doing it BUT the SUN!!! That is why Mars, Mercury and Jupiter are having the same issues.

So in short I AGREE we need to be good stewards of our planet. (All my corporate offices recycle, I buy recycled paper and even some recycled plastic products like Staples line of recycled office supplies like staplers, pens, etc. I believe in being "Eco-friendly"

BUT to tax us permanently because supposedly we are causing CLIMATE CHANGE what BS!!!! And if you think all the big multi-national companies are paying the bulk of the Carbon Tax you are wrong! That gets off loaded onto the shoulders of the consumers and the common tax payer, the corporations have loop holes and tax accountants to avoid that. I know because I have one for my company and he will be put hard at work to save my firm as much as possible and yes my clients will end up paying more in the end.

Any tax because of the "CLIMATE CHANGE" or "ECO-FRIENDLY" is just a disguise for the governments hand in our wallet pocket!!! COnservative idea or not IT SUCKS!!!!

Even if the climate change is not caused by CO2 its concentration in the atmosphere increased dramatically.

We shouldn't be shitting where we eat and breathe. I hate inhaling exhaust fumes when I bike (especially sucks when out of breath)...

[PoliticalCitizen]

The interesting thing is that the media seems to have shifted its focus to the Liberals, and as is generally believed the more media pays attention to a certain party the better they tend to do on election day. So it should be interesting to see if Dion can come through during the debates; despite his faltering English, if he can manage to present the Liberals as moderates between the extreme right and left wing, he may just be able to do it.

I can't expect Dion to do much more than embarrass himself and his party (at least in English)...

Both Harper and Layton speak mostly in "pre-packaged sound bytes" (as May put it )

Elisabeth May, on the other hand, is quite eloquent and may win some voters

[Canadian Blue]

Elisabeth May, on the other hand, is quite eloquent and may win some voters

I doubt it, she'll shoot herself in the foot. Any person who reads through a page of that platform will start to wonder if only people that smoked pot, hugged a tree, and was part of a commune, were the ones who wrote it up.

[PoliticalCitizen]

I doubt it, she'll shoot herself in the foot. Any person who reads through a page of that platform will start to wonder if only people that smoked pot, hugged a tree, and was part of a commune, were the ones who wrote it up.

LoL

The Green Party is the only true global party, with Greens in 70 countries and elected members of parliament in Europe, Australia and New Zealand.

http://www.greenparty.ca/en/policy/visiongreen/partfive

I guess all these people around the world smoke grass and hug trees.

[segnosaur]

Now that we know each other's positions AND respect them, we can stop arguing and share.

When did I start respecting your postion? Must have missed that.

Here's my understanding of human health:

Energy is life. A person with high energy levels ususally doesn't get sick. A person with very low energy levels can take 10 different prescription drugs and still be sick.

If you want to argue that people will be healthier/live longer if they're more active and eat right, I'd have to agree... yes they will. But that does not negate the science behind modern medicine.

Someone who is active and willing to use modern medicine (including modern drugs) is going to be healthier than someone who is active and doesn't use modern medicine. Similarly, someone who eats junk food and does not exercise but does use modern medicine will be healthier than someone who eats junk food and doesn't exercise and doesn't use modern medicine.

You see, in science we have to worry about proper experimental controls... If you are trying to see of some drug/medical procedure/etc. works, you have to be able to compare groups with similar characteristics, with the only difference being whether someone gets a drug and whether someone gets a placebo.

Ginseng doesn't require "double-blind" studies to prove its beneficial effects in almost every way. Ginco Biloba is almost in the same category.

Yes, they do require double-blind studies. That's the only way you can prove that any benefit they have is not due to the 'placebo effect'.

It appears that you are basing your 'proof' of their effectiveness on anecdotes and history. If so, ask yourself this: Do you believe in faith healing? That some religious person can heal the sick by touch or prayer? Do you believe in televangilists like Peter Popoff? Just like your 'alternative medicine', there has been a long history of faith healing (heck, its even in the bible). And just like alternative medicine, we can find anecdotes of people being 'healed' by Popoff.

Now, if you say that you believe in alternative medicine, but don't believe in the healing power of televangilists, then why? Both of them have the same 'evidence'... namely a long history of claimed success and multiple anecdotes.

Oh, as for Ginkgo Biloba, here's an article for you to look at:

http://www.aafp.org/afp/20030101/tips/3.html ...There is no benefit from using ginkgo biloba in cognitively intact elderly people.

These supplements sold in the stores have the dosages of active ingredients in the plants regulated.

First of all, keep in mind that not all supplements are sold through stores... many are sold through private sales or through the web or people who claim to be 'healers' (even though they have no actual medical training). In those cases, the dosages of 'active ingredients' may vary widely. (Someone else has already mentioned a relative who bought 'natural' medication only to find it contained unexpected quantities of 'real' medication.)

Here are some other examples:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/12/...e=related_story

Some men in their 30s who went to emergency rooms after taking herbal sex pills were presumably otherwise healthy, but they showed the transitory side effects of the active ingredients in regulated impotency pharmaceuticals, such as difficulty seeing clearly or severe headaches, records show.

http://www.canada.com/topics/bodyandhealth...e4-151339bc833a

...55-year-old Michael Berggren died in a single-vehicle rollover after unwittingly taking prescription estazolam in a herbal sleep medicine...

Secondly, the issue is not just whether the 'alternative medicine' has a certain amount of active ingredient (although that is certainly one aspect), the other issue is whether such medicines actually have the desired effect. (It doesn't matter if the package of Ginkgo is properly labeled with the right amount of chemicals, if they claim it helps memory and it doen't, then its worthless.)

They can do no more harm than salt or sugar.

There are many problems that can occur with so-called 'alternative medicine'...

In the best case, someone wastes money on something that doesn't work. Perhaps you may feel that giving people false hope is worth something, but most people probably would value honesty. When I use salt or sugar I don't expect to be 'cured' of anything. Its a different story if I take something that's advertised as "improving memory", or "curing erectile disfunction".

In the worst case, you can either get sicker from the medication (as I've shown in the references above). Or, a person may delay getting proper treatment in favour of 'alternative' treatment. Here's a case of a family that let their baby die because they decided to use an ineffective homeopathic remedy rather than proper antibiotics.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/htmlContent.jht.../05/nboy05.html

Now about the "environmental science" - there are many opinions and methods. But a quite unambiguous approach would be to say that doing something is better than doing nothing.

Not exactly a great approach....

Doing 'something' may actually be counterproductive, or have unexpected detrimental effects. For example, any environmental plan which causes a negative effect on the economy may be counterproductive since fewer businesses will be able to afford to upgrade to 'green' technology.

There's also the possibility that doing 'something' may end up diverting resources away from a more optimal solution.

So far we haven't done much. The Greens have an action plan that they will stick to.

Whether they would actually 'stick to' their plan is something we are unlikely to ever find out. But I do recognize problems with their plans.

As I pointed out before, they want to eliminate nuclear power. Yet they also want to reduce carbon emissions. Those 2 items are actually opposing goals. (At least with our current level of technology.)

[Alta4ever]

Even if the climate change is not caused by CO2 its concentration in the atmosphere increased dramatically.

We shouldn't be shitting where we eat and breathe. I hate inhaling exhaust fumes when I bike (especially sucks when out of breath)...

Without C02 there would be no life on this planet. Its not the cabon dioxode you are gaging on, its the other byproducts of the burn that leave you gagging.

[WIP]

I'm not trying to defend the manufacturers of the herbal extract pills or their lack of quality control.

But since the "Natural" products are indeed not (or not supposed to be) synthesized they do not need the same stringent rules and regulations.

Just as any food product they should be tested for quality and contents.

On this front I'm not just a speaker - I've been taking anywhere from 8 to 12 different "natural" and "food supplement" type of pills daily during the last 4 years, ever since I quit smoking. My overall well-being and energy levels have improved significantly.

But I'm not out to sell this stuff. Just like with food - it's everyone's personal choice.

I'd be willing to bet that most of your improved feelings of wellbeing came from quitting smoking and making other lifestyle changes. What you are attributing to those natural supplements is likely nothing more than a placebo effect.

[WIP]

Without C02 there would be no life on this planet. Its not the cabon dioxode you are gaging on, its the other byproducts of the burn that leave you gagging.

This is not about pollutants! It's about gases that trap heat energy from the Sun, creating a greenhouse effect. Now I don't care for getting bogged down in the minutia about climate models and arguments about what's causing temperatures to rise, but it seems that there is pretty substantive proof that the Arctic Ice Cap is melting and CO2 levels are rising.

According to the IPCC, CO2 levels that have inched their way up to 380 ppm recently, are the highest they've been for 650,000 years. Does it seem reasonable that we can keep pumping up the CO2 and methane levels in the atmosphere without suffering any repercussions? I figure something's got to give; and we may end up triggering a runaway greenhouse effect and be too late to do anything about it before there is enough consensus to take action.

[Smallc]

This is not about pollutants! It's about gases that trap heat energy from the Sun, creating a greenhouse effect. Now I don't care for getting bogged down in the minutia about climate models and arguments about what's causing temperatures to rise, but it seems that there is pretty substantive proof that the Arctic Ice Cap is melting and CO2 levels are rising.

According to the IPCC, CO2 levels that have inched their way up to 380 ppm recently, are the highest they've been for 650,000 years. Does it seem reasonable that we can keep pumping up the CO2 and methane levels in the atmosphere without suffering any repercussions? I figure something's got to give; and we may end up triggering a runaway greenhouse effect and be too late to do anything about it before there is enough consensus to take action.

I fail to see your point as the earth is 4.5B.

Edited October 1, 2008 by Smallc

[segnosaur]

I'm not trying to defend the manufacturers of the herbal extract pills or their lack of quality control.

Yet you seem to support a party that is fighting against a bill (C-51) which would help provide safegards against poor quality control.

But since the "Natural" products are indeed not (or not supposed to be) synthesized they do not need the same stringent rules and regulations.

And under bill C-51, they won't be under the same rules as modern drug companies. But they will have more oversight than they have now; that oversight is justified by the fact that many alternative drugs A: do contain chemicals that are more harmful than you would find in, lets say, food, and B: often make false claims.

Just as any food product they should be tested for quality and contents.

Differences between food and 'alternative medicines'....

- Alternative medicines often make bogus claims as to their effectiveness. Not so with food. (I've never seen a head of lettuce that makes medical claims)

- Some 'alternative medicines' do actually contain chemicals that can be harmful if not used properly. Last time I checked, you weren't in much danger from overdosing on a BLT.

On this front I'm not just a speaker - I've been taking anywhere from 8 to 12 different "natural" and "food supplement" type of pills daily during the last 4 years, ever since I quit smoking. My overall well-being and energy levels have improved significantly.

Ummm... someone else already pointed this out, but it bears repeating...

Don't you see the problem with your 'claim'? You started taking the supplements at the same time you quit smoking. From a scientific point of view, that little 'experiment' does not have a proper control.

Just the act of quitting smoking may be responsibile for your improved condition.

But I'm not out to sell this stuff. Just like with food - it's everyone's personal choice.

Yes, it is "everyone's personal choice". But I feel such choices should actually be informed choices. As such, anyone should have the right to buy and use any alternative medicine, but they should not be lied to about whether such alternatives actually work.

[Alta4ever]

This is not about pollutants! It's about gases that trap heat energy from the Sun, creating a greenhouse effect. Now I don't care for getting bogged down in the minutia about climate models and arguments about what's causing temperatures to rise, but it seems that there is pretty substantive proof that the Arctic Ice Cap is melting and CO2 levels are rising.

According to the IPCC, CO2 levels that have inched their way up to 380 ppm recently, are the highest they've been for 650,000 years. Does it seem reasonable that we can keep pumping up the CO2 and methane levels in the atmosphere without suffering any repercussions? I figure something's got to give; and we may end up triggering a runaway greenhouse effect and be too late to do anything about it before there is enough consensus to take action.

Did you not read the quote from Political Citizen, or did you fail to read that and just go in to the gorical talking points

[WIP]

I fail to see your point as the earth is 4.5B.

The point is that unlike past spikes in CO2 caused by volcanic activity, today's increase is man-made, and increased by 35% in the last 150 years; and will keep on going up as the world's population increases, especially as third world countries industrialize and put cars on their roads. So what are the limits before catrastrophic changes start to occur -- 500 ppm, 1,000 ppm? Arguing about whether this year's average temperature was higher or lower than last year, is pointless! CO2 levels are rising and we don't know what the consequences are going to be!

[WIP]

Did you not read the quote from Political Citizen, or did you fail to read that and just go in to the gorical talking points

Does it matter? Who doesn't know CO2 is used by plants for photosynthesis! It's a matter of getting too much of a good thing.

[Alta4ever]

Does it matter? Who doesn't know CO2 is used by plants for photosynthesis! It's a matter of getting too much of a good thing.

Political Citizen was attributing the lack of fresh air to c02, which is not the case. It is the common confusion between real pollution and AGW.

[Alta4ever]

CO2 levels are rising and we don't know what the consequences are going to be!

So why are we rushing into government policy.

[PoliticalCitizen]

Without C02 there would be no life on this planet. Its not the cabon dioxode you are gaging on, its the other byproducts of the burn that leave you gagging.

Good point. I guess the "Drive Clean" program doesn't work 100%. But I'm pretty sure it was both CO2 and the more nocive gases.

About "no life without CO2" - I'm sure you don't believe that by increasing CO2 concentration in the atmosphere we're doing global vegetation a service.

My main point is that there are many benefits and almost no downsides to the Zero Emission Vehicles.

[PoliticalCitizen]

When did I start respecting your postion? Must have missed that.

Not respecting the opponent's position makes one's argument a waste of time and effort.

If you want to argue that people will be healthier/live longer if they're more active and eat right, I'd have to agree... yes they will. But that does not negate the science behind modern medicine.

I agree. It only makes it unnecessary for the ones conducting a phisically and spiritually healthy lifestyle.

Someone who is active and willing to use modern medicine (including modern drugs) is going to be healthier than someone who is active and doesn't use modern medicine. Similarly, someone who eats junk food and does not exercise but does use modern medicine will be healthier than someone who eats junk food and doesn't exercise and doesn't use modern medicine.

I agree if you refer to multi-vitamins and such.

You see, in science we have to worry about proper experimental controls... If you are trying to see of some drug/medical procedure/etc. works, you have to be able to compare groups with similar characteristics, with the only difference being whether someone gets a drug and whether someone gets a placebo.

Yes, they do require double-blind studies. That's the only way you can prove that any benefit they have is not due to the 'placebo effect'.

There's no reason to try to prove something that has been practiced for millenia, uless you really believe that people were idiots until very recently.

It appears that you are basing your 'proof' of their effectiveness on anecdotes and history. If so, ask yourself this: Do you believe in faith healing? That some religious person can heal the sick by touch or prayer? Do you believe in televangilists like Peter Popoff? Just like your 'alternative medicine', there has been a long history of faith healing (heck, its even in the bible). And just like alternative medicine, we can find anecdotes of people being 'healed' by Popoff.

I don't need to ask myself. I know what I believe, and I do not "believe" something that I have not experienced.

I am not a religious person but I am practicing some of the Eastern traditional self-healing / personal evolution methods. Based on what I have EXPERIENCED, I am ready to believe in healing by energy. It goes much futher than just healing and it also falls completely outside of what modern science is ready to admit.

Oh, as for Ginkgo Biloba, here's an article for you to look at:

http://www.aafp.org/afp/20030101/tips/3.html ...There is no benefit from using ginkgo biloba in cognitively intact elderly people.

First of all, keep in mind that not all supplements are sold through stores... many are sold through private sales or through the web or people who claim to be 'healers' (even though they have no actual medical training). In those cases, the dosages of 'active ingredients' may vary widely. (Someone else has already mentioned a relative who bought 'natural' medication only to find it contained unexpected quantities of 'real' medication.)

Here are some other examples:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/12/...e=related_story

Some men in their 30s who went to emergency rooms after taking herbal sex pills were presumably otherwise healthy, but they showed the transitory side effects of the active ingredients in regulated impotency pharmaceuticals, such as difficulty seeing clearly or severe headaches, records show.

http://www.canada.com/topics/bodyandhealth...e4-151339bc833a

...55-year-old Michael Berggren died in a single-vehicle rollover after unwittingly taking prescription estazolam in a herbal sleep medicine...

Secondly, the issue is not just whether the 'alternative medicine' has a certain amount of active ingredient (although that is certainly one aspect), the other issue is whether such medicines actually have the desired effect. (It doesn't matter if the package of Ginkgo is properly labeled with the right amount of chemicals, if they claim it helps memory and it doen't, then its worthless.)

There are many problems that can occur with so-called 'alternative medicine'...

In the best case, someone wastes money on something that doesn't work. Perhaps you may feel that giving people false hope is worth something, but most people probably would value honesty. When I use salt or sugar I don't expect to be 'cured' of anything. Its a different story if I take something that's advertised as "improving memory", or "curing erectile disfunction".

In the worst case, you can either get sicker from the medication (as I've shown in the references above). Or, a person may delay getting proper treatment in favour of 'alternative' treatment. Here's a case of a family that let their baby die because they decided to use an ineffective homeopathic remedy rather than proper antibiotics.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/htmlContent.jht.../05/nboy05.html

Being the knowledgeable man you claim to be you probably know that for each case of "natural remedy" use going wrong there's probably tens of thousands of cases of bad effects for most drugs (including the most benign ones).

For every death caused by NOT taking drugs there are probably hundreds of thousands of cases where death was a result of TAKING them (either the wrong ones, or incorrect dosage, or a bad combination, etc.)

Doing 'something' may actually be counterproductive, or have unexpected detrimental effects. For example, any environmental plan which causes a negative effect on the economy may be counterproductive since fewer businesses will be able to afford to upgrade to 'green' technology.

Unfortunately "going green" is almost never cheap and has to be forced on corporations as their only goal is maximizing profits.

There's also the possibility that doing 'something' may end up diverting resources away from a more optimal solution.

Whether they would actually 'stick to' their plan is something we are unlikely to ever find out. But I do recognize problems with their plans.

Are you saying we sholdn't do anything until we find the "holy grail" of environmental plans? What if that doesn't happen in the next 100 years? What will our grandchildren drink and breathe?

As I pointed out before, they want to eliminate nuclear power. Yet they also want to reduce carbon emissions. Those 2 items are actually opposing goals. (At least with our current level of technology.)

Not quite. Even at current levels of technology people can transform their houses from energy guzzlers into energy generators. There's a big initial investment required, but that's where the government could pitch in with incentives like no tax and 0% interests on loans to "green" your home.

[PoliticalCitizen]

I'd be willing to bet that most of your improved feelings of wellbeing came from quitting smoking and making other lifestyle changes. What you are attributing to those natural supplements is likely nothing more than a placebo effect.

You're partially right but I discontinue the intake of supplements for the week-ends / holidays / vacations (to allow the body to return to its status quo) and there is a noticeable difference.

Again, just to make sure I'm not misunderstood - I do not sell or work for a distributor of the supplements / remedies. I can recommend trying them (one at a time, for no longer than a week) if you feel chronically tired or need a mental boost at work. Then, based on your PERSONAL EXPERIENCE (not on something you read somewhere).

[PoliticalCitizen]

Yet you seem to support a party that is fighting against a bill (C-51) which would help provide safegards against poor quality control.

And under bill C-51, they won't be under the same rules as modern drug companies. But they will have more oversight than they have now; that oversight is justified by the fact that many alternative drugs A: do contain chemicals that are more harmful than you would find in, lets say, food, and B: often make false claims.

How much do you know of the Bill C-51? Here are some interpretations of what's in it:

http://www.vivelecanada.ca/article/2359300...s-a-health-bill

Under Bill C-51 the State could:

• Enter private property without a warrant

• Take your property at their discretion

• Dispose of your property at will

• Not reimburse you for your losses

• Seize your bank accounts without a warrant

• Charge owners shipping and storage charges for seized property

• Store your property indefinitely

• Levy fines of up to $5,000,000.00 and/or seek 2 years in jail per charge

• Will not have to report seizures to a court.

• They can charge you just for talking about or promoting natural alternatives

Differences between food and 'alternative medicines'....

- Alternative medicines often make bogus claims as to their effectiveness. Not so with food. (I've never seen a head of lettuce that makes medical claims)

Have you seen greesy sausages that claim zero trans fat? How about 0 calories coke?

- Some 'alternative medicines' do actually contain chemicals that can be harmful if not used properly. Last time I checked, you weren't in much danger from overdosing on a BLT.

What about melanine in milk? Ring a bell?

Or our home-made disaster - "Death by a thousand cold cuts" listeriosis? Would that be kosher?

Ummm... someone else already pointed this out, but it bears repeating...

Don't you see the problem with your 'claim'? You started taking the supplements at the same time you quit smoking. From a scientific point of view, that little 'experiment' does not have a proper control.

Just the act of quitting smoking may be responsibile for your improved condition.

See my reply to WIP above...

Yes, it is "everyone's personal choice". But I feel such choices should actually be informed choices. As such, anyone should have the right to buy and use any alternative medicine, but they should not be lied to about whether such alternatives actually work.

Everyone can conduct their personal trial, wich is (as long as you stick to brand names) quite safe and relatively inexpensive.

[PoliticalCitizen]

I fail to see your point as the earth is 4.5B.

I'm sure you realize that our planet was unable to sustain complex organic life for the biggest part of its existence.

[PoliticalCitizen]

Political Citizen was attributing the lack of fresh air to c02, which is not the case. It is the common confusion between real pollution and AGW.

If you have a gas stove (which I do) try breathing right beside it when it's on. Knowing that CO2 is "benign" doesn't make up for the lack of oxigen in the air.

[Alta4ever]

Good point. I guess the "Drive Clean" program doesn't work 100%. But I'm pretty sure it was both CO2 and the more nocive gases.

About "no life without CO2" - I'm sure you don't believe that by increasing CO2 concentration in the atmosphere we're doing global vegetation a service.

My main point is that there are many benefits and almost no downsides to the Zero Emission Vehicles.

C02 is what the plants breath it is required for photosynthesis.