The Liberal Green Shift

[mcqueen625]

The reality is that most Canadians do not trust the Liberals with anything that comes out of their mouths, because they have proven themselves to be liars and thieves. Dion talks about doing this or doing that for the economy when he knows full well that we are no different that most countries in the world, because the problems currently happening are global and whatever Dion is proposing will not fix it. We are a very little player in the global picture. Maybe it is time that Dion goes back to lecturing to naive idealist college kids who have no life experience, because working Canadians are not buying the crap he is selling. Unfortunately for the Liberal Party, but fortunately for us they will never form a government with Dion or anyone else from Liberal old boys club as their leader. Canadians have been lied to for so long and so often by the Liberals, that they simply have no credibility. If the Liberal caucus had any brains they would outright refuse to listen to Dion. I glad they are listening to his rantings because it very well could mean we could end up with a majority Conservative government. Dion is even despised in his own province, er sorry his citizenship if of France is it not, a gift from mommy?

[mcqueen625]

Corporate and personal income tax cuts.

Which you would still be unhappy about.

The Tory plan though raises gas 40 cents a litre but that plan is gold.

Many of the people who are going to be hurt by a carbon tax are the poor and working poor of this country who presently pay little or no income tax, so how is cutting income taxes going to help this large segment of the Canadian population? I'll tell you, it will not help them at all, and in fact they will suffer a loss of income due to the rising costs of virtually everything they pay for. The reality is that corporations although they whine and cry about their tax burden, they don't pay those taxes. For every expenditure they write of those expense on their tax returns, or they pass it on to consumers though increased pricing. Why is that politicians think people are stupid and can't observe those costs being passed down every time thery go to the supermarket for a loaf of bread or a jug of milk. In NB it was just annouced that because of the rising transportation costs the cost of a litre of milk will increase October 1st, by 3.5 cents. Poor people could not afford to purcahse milk for their children as it was, and they are going to raise the prices so even more people will have to stop buying it. We are not stupid Mr. Dion, and his roving band of misfits.

[jdobbin]

Ya right, like where? That could be a tougher sell than the Green Shift. "I'm entitled to my entitlements" remember.

Seems to me that wasn't the government speaking.

As far as where to cut, plenty there to cut. The Liberals have done it before and can do it again. Just because the Tories don't know how to cut spending doesn't mean the Liberals don't.

It's nice of you to admit however that reducing emissions is not the primary purpose of this tax.

It will reduce emission and it is the primary goal.

Edited September 8, 2008 by jdobbin

[jdobbin]

Many of the people who are going to be hurt by a carbon tax are the poor and working poor of this country who presently pay little or no income tax, so how is cutting income taxes going to help this large segment of the Canadian population? I'll tell you, it will not help them at all, and in fact they will suffer a loss of income due to the rising costs of virtually everything they pay for. The reality is that corporations although they whine and cry about their tax burden, they don't pay those taxes.

Not true.

As for broken promises: The Tories promised to eliminate the excise tax, they promised not to end income trusts and they promised not to call an election before the fixed date.

Edited September 8, 2008 by jdobbin

[mcqueen625]

And therein lies the problem. The Liberals have openly rolled their Poverty Agenda into their Green Shift Plan......and that's likely just the tip of the iceberg. Don't forget the promise that Dion made - to reduce poverty by 30% over the next 5 years and overall child poverty by 50% - the 30/50 plan - introduced with much media fanfare. Liberals and their media friends have gone to great lengths to tout Mr. Dion as a man of great integrity. So where will he find the money? - just like the Europeans - a shell game with environment taxes.

Dion's talk about reducing by 1/3 poverty over his first mandate, and child poverty by 50% over that same time frame. Well, politicians have been promising to totally eliminate child poverty by the year 2000, and here we are in 2008 and thif anything the problem has gotten far worse, and that happend at least for 15 years with a Liberal PM at the helm. Dion can promise whatever he likes, becasue he is just like most Liberal politicaisn they wouldn't know the truth if it jumped out and smacked them. It's treally nothing more that a feel good comment meant to initiate a new social program with another huge bureacracy to administer it.

[Wilber]

Seems to me that wasn't the government speaking.

As far as where to cut, plenty there to cut. The Liberals have done it before and can do it again. Just because the Tories don't know how to cut spending doesn't mean the Liberals don't.

It will reduce emission and it is the primary goal.

Are you saying that the programs initiated with the revenue from this tax are more important than the tax or it's effect? Are you saying that you will not reduce or get rid of the tax and that you will cut other spending before you will cut the programs that were initiated with the revenue from this tax? Are you saying that those programs are more important than any reduction in emissions or other spending that a Liberal government might have in effect at the time should carbon tax revenues go south? As of course is the primary reason for this tax. If not, what exactly are you saying? Not only do I think that reducing emissions is not the primary object of this tax, it isn't really much of a consideration at all, rather it is a red herring to sell a tax increase for the middle and working classes in order to finance your social engineering projects.

[mcqueen625]

Some of that money is already within the tax Dion has outlined. And has been mentioned this week, a lot of the rest of the plan will entail working with the provinces using present resources to do a better job.

What are you talking about when you say Dion will work with the provinces?? BC has already imposed their very own carbon tax that took affect on July 1st of this year, and already the prices on virtually all goods and services have increased. Ask the people of BC how happy they are with Gordon Campbell and his carbon tax. Now Dion wants to come along and give the knock-out punch by imposing his version of this rip-off on top of the shafting Gordon has already perpetrated on the people of that province. NB is also playing with the same idea in a province that is already one of the poorest in the country. I have to question why these stupid Liberals would want to do that to fellow Canadians?

[blueblood]

What are you talking about when you say Dion will work with the provinces?? BC has already imposed their very own carbon tax that took affect on July 1st of this year, and already the prices on virtually all goods and services have increased. Ask the people of BC how happy they are with Gordon Campbell and his carbon tax. Now Dion wants to come along and give the knock-out punch by imposing his version of this rip-off on top of the shafting Gordon has already perpetrated on the people of that province. NB is also playing with the same idea in a province that is already one of the poorest in the country. I have to question why these stupid Liberals would want to do that to fellow Canadians?

Those programs need funds which were stripped when the tories slashed the GST. Not that that's a bad thing.

[jdobbin]

Are you saying that the programs initiated with the revenue from this tax are more important than the tax or it's effect? Are you saying that you will not reduce or get rid of the tax and that you will cut other spending before you will cut the programs that were initiated with the revenue from this tax? Are you saying that those programs are more important than any reduction in emissions or other spending that a Liberal government might have in effect at the time should carbon tax revenues go south? As of course is the primary reason for this tax. If not, what exactly are you saying? Not only do I think that reducing emissions is not the primary object of this tax, it isn't really much of a consideration at all, rather it is a red herring to sell a tax increase for the middle and working classes in order to finance your social engineering projects.

That is all your opinion.

Carbon taxes are for reducing emissions. I suppose if you want a cap and trade instead just say so.

The Liberal plan is to reduce other taxes to balance out the increase on carbon.

[mcqueen625]

It is a a reduction plan as much as your want to deny it.

You just keep telling yourself that, and when the Liberals wind up devastated on October 14th, the Liberal Party of Canada will end up where they deserve to be, destined to become a party that will be years if ever coming out of the woods. It will be embarassing for anyone to even admit they were stupid enough to vote Liberal. Don't gt me wrong, I hold a Liberal Party card, but I wouldn't vote Liberal again if they paid me, because likely they would be trying to buy my vote with my own money. In NB we presently have a first term Liberal Premier and he is going to wind up as one of the only Premiers in history to serve only one term. He certainly won't get relected by his present record of stupidity and calous disregard for the people of this province.

[jdobbin]

What are you talking about when you say Dion will work with the provinces?? BC has already imposed their very own carbon tax that took affect on July 1st of this year, and already the prices on virtually all goods and services have increased. Ask the people of BC how happy they are with Gordon Campbell and his carbon tax. Now Dion wants to come along and give the knock-out punch by imposing his version of this rip-off on top of the shafting Gordon has already perpetrated on the people of that province. NB is also playing with the same idea in a province that is already one of the poorest in the country. I have to question why these stupid Liberals would want to do that to fellow Canadians?

Please refrain from the insults in regards to political parties. Things will downgrade pretty fast otherwise.

Dion has already indicated that he will be negotiating with provinces who have instituted a plan. He said so again in Winnipeg this past week.

The Tory cap and trade plan will pass on more costs in regards to fuel. Have you spoken against Harper yet in that regard?

[Wilber]

That is all your opinion.

Carbon taxes are for reducing emissions. I suppose if you want a cap and trade instead just say so.

The Liberal plan is to reduce other taxes to balance out the increase on carbon.

No it is not my opinion it is what you are saying. You will not address how you would pay for the entitlements made possible by this tax should the revenue disappear, other than you would cut spending by a Liberal government that had already been in power for four years.

Edited September 8, 2008 by Wilber

[jdobbin]

You just keep telling yourself that, and when the Liberals wind up devastated on October 14th, the Liberal Party of Canada will end up where they deserve to be, destined to become a party that will be years if ever coming out of the woods. It will be embarassing for anyone to even admit they were stupid enough to vote Liberal. Don't gt me wrong, I hold a Liberal Party card, but I wouldn't vote Liberal again if they paid me, because likely they would be trying to buy my vote with my own money. In NB we presently have a first term Liberal Premier and he is going to wind up as one of the only Premiers in history to serve only one term. He certainly won't get relected by his present record of stupidity and calous disregard for the people of this province.

I've already said that the Liberals will likely suffer a massive defeat in the election and will probably cease to be a functioning party afterwards. My prediction was the end of the Liberal party and probably a two party left/right scenario where the NDP/Greens are one side and the Conservative on the other. The Liberal supporters would split between the two parties or in my case probably just drop out of the process.

The carbon tax, however, is to place a fixed cost on carbon. This is something that the cap and trade cannot do. Both plans will reduce emissions but the tax works steadily while the cap takes a long time to work and passes on much heavier costs on things like fuel.

If someone doesn't believe in global warming then no solution is any good. The problem is Harper says he supports the cap and trade. He will have to be clear that he still supports that and to be upfront on the possible costs. The issue won't go away.

As for New Brunswick, I have not seem many polls from there recently but I seem to remember hearing cheers in regards to their overall tax plan. Am I wrong?

[jdobbin]

No it is not my opinion it is what you are saying. You will not address how you would pay for the entitlements made possible by this tax should the revenue disappear, other than you would cut spending by a Liberal government that had already been in power for four years.

It is your opinion.

The Liberals have a record of spending cuts. They certainly wouldn't throw the country into deficit and would cut across the board if there was a threat of it. We haven't seen that sort of commitment from the Tories in recent memory.

[blueblood]

It is your opinion.

The Liberals have a record of spending cuts. They certainly wouldn't throw the country into deficit and would cut across the board if there was a threat of it. We haven't seen that sort of commitment from the Tories in recent memory.

A recent record, remember Trudeau?

[jdobbin]

A recent record, remember Trudeau?

And I remember Chretien.

In any event, the polls now indicate a massive majority for the Tories. I am now wondering if the Liberals will even have 50 seats after the election. I think the party might be destroyed and come to an end.

[Riverwind]

The carbon tax, however, is to place a fixed cost on carbon. This is something that the cap and trade cannot do. Both plans will reduce emissions but the tax works steadily while the cap takes a long time to work and passes on much heavier costs on things like fuel.

The carbon tax does nothing of the sort. It discriminates between different sorts of carbon emissions and offers kick backs and incentive to various groups that serve to negate any effect it might have. More imporantly, it does nothing to address the fact that alternative technologies do not exist or cost much more than the carbon tax. This means that the most probable result of this tax will be a slow down in economic activity as businesses close or move operations to other countries.

[mcqueen625]

Not true.

As for broken promises: The Tories promised to eliminate the excise tax, they promised not to end income trusts and they promised not to call an election before the fixed date.

You can't even argue logically, because the things you speak of have nothing to do with the subject of this forum. It's irrelevant about what the Tories did or didn't do, we are talking here about a carbon tax that is both ill-conceived and will make the poor and working poor of this country worse off than they already are. Income-tax reductions be damned as most of the people I refer to don't pay income tax anyway. For them the only thing that will happen is that they may have to visit the food bank or soup kitchen more often and that is assuming that those agencies have any food on their shelves to give to them.

The Canadian Association of Food Banks has already spoken to this issue and outlined the fact that people will be far worse off than they are presently, and the agencies whom they rely on will also suffer from a huge reduction in donations. I can speak from experience when I say that already with the high costs of energy the numbers of clients needing the services of food bank or soup kitchens has gone up, and we haven't even got to the cold weather yet, when electricity bill will increase because people just can't turn off the thermostat and freeze. When the cost of living escalates, food bank donations decline right along with it. Presently in Canada approximately 720,000 individuals require the services of a food bank every month, and that number is expected to increase dramatically due to increased energy costs.

After all of the years of Liberal socialist programs and all of the money wasted on useless programs like a gun registry, that by he way also did not do what it was supposedly designed to do, which was to take guns out of the hands of criminals. All it did under the Liberal was create yet another huge bureaucracy. I'm not sure what Chretien was thinking, but maybe during one of his delusions he dream of t all of the criminals in Canada in possession of illegal firearms would rush to the nearest registry office and register their weapons. Of course that didn't happen but they wasted how many $Billion. I know that rant was off topic as well but I was just attempt to illustrate just how ridiculous the Liberal are when it comes to dreaming up half-baked plans to siphon even more money out of the pocket of Canadians.

Edited September 8, 2008 by mcqueen625

[blueblood]

And I remember Chretien.

In any event, the polls now indicate a massive majority for the Tories. I am now wondering if the Liberals will even have 50 seats after the election. I think the party might be destroyed and come to an end.

No argument there, that's why I emphasized recent record. I think the Liberals gaffed in the Leadership gig when they wanted to take the party more to the left.

[Wilber]

It is your opinion.

The Liberals have a record of spending cuts. They certainly wouldn't throw the country into deficit and would cut across the board if there was a threat of it. We haven't seen that sort of commitment from the Tories in recent memory.

Look, unless you think that the CO2 reductions will take place the day after the Liberals pass this legislation, they will be in power for several years before any environmental effects of this tax take place. Any spending cuts that result in order for these programs to stay in place will already have been budgeted by the Liberal government in power. So, it is not my opinion that the entitlements generated by this tax are less important, you continue to state that they are not because you will cut other spending in order to keep them in place, regardless of any revenue (or lack of) generated by a carbon tax. Ergo, the spending is more important than any environmental effects of the tax.

[jdobbin]

Look, unless you think that the CO2 reductions will take place the day after the Liberals pass this legislation, they will be in power for several years before any environmental effects of this tax take place. Any spending cuts that result in order for these programs to stay in place will already have been budgeted by the Liberal government in power. So, it is not my opinion that the entitlements generated by this tax are less important, you continue to state that they are not because you will cut other spending in order to keep them in place, regardless of any revenue (or lack of) generated by a carbon tax. Ergo, the spending is more important than any environmental effects of the tax.

I think you forget that there are other tax cuts associated with the plan.

I also said that if the government looks to go into deficit, they would cut across the board including whatever spending was part of the plan. Dion was specific about that last week.

[jdobbin]

You can't even argue logically, because the things you speak of have nothing to do with the subject of this forum. It's irrelevant about what the Tories did or didn't do, we are talking here about a carbon tax that is both ill-conceived and will make the poor and working poor of this country worse off than they already are. Income-tax reductions be damned as most of the people I refer to don't pay income tax anyway. For them the only thing that will happen is that they may have to visit the food bank or soup kitchen more often and that is assuming that those agencies have any food on their shelves to give to them.

I was responding to the argument that the Liberals broke their promises in the past. I have said they certainly have done so. The Harper government has done so as well.

The Canadian Association of Food Banks has already spoken to this issue and outlined the fact that people will be far worse off than they are presently, and the agencies whom they rely on will also suffer from a huge reduction in donations. I can speak from experience when I say that already with the high costs of energy the numbers of clients needing the services of food bank or soup kitchens has gone up, and we haven't even got to the cold weather yet, when electricity bill will increase because people just can't turn off the thermostat and freeze. When the cost of living escalates, food bank donations decline right along with it. Presently in Canada approximately 720,000 individuals require the services of a food bank every month, and that number is expected to increase dramatically due to increased energy costs.

They also spoke out against ethanol increasing the price of food. On that issue, all the parties are out of step.

After all of the years of Liberal socialist programs and all of the money wasted on useless programs like a gun registry, that by he way also did not do what it was supposedly designed to do, which was to take guns out of the hands of criminals. All it did under the Liberal was create yet another huge bureaucracy. I'm not sure what Chretien was thinking, but maybe during one of his delusions he dream of t all of the criminals in Canada in possession of illegal firearms would rush to the nearest registry office and register their weapons. Of course that didn't happen but they wasted how many $Billion. I know that rant was off topic as well but I was just attempt to illustrate just how ridiculous the Liberal are when it comes to dreaming up half-baked plans to siphon even more money out of the pocket of Canadians.

As with most threads, the tendency to roam freely over other issues is expected.

[Wilber]

I think you forget that there are other tax cuts associated with the plan.

I also said that if the government looks to go into deficit, they would cut across the board including whatever spending was part of the plan. Dion was specific about that last week.

As I said, spending is more important than the environmental effects of this tax.

You seem to think money grows on trees. If Dion is going to move massive amounts of money into the pockets of lower income people, that money is going to come out of the pockets of middle and working class people. The Green Shift is just code for doing so. A tax on carbon is a tax on everything. There is nothing that we consume which will not be effected by it. There is nothing that is manufactured, transported, sold or consumed in this country which will not be subject to it. In fact it is a much more wide reaching tax than the GST.

[jdobbin]

As I said, spending is more important than the environmental effects of this tax.

Not true.

You seem to think money grows on trees. If Dion is going to move massive amounts of money into the pockets of lower income people, that money is going to come out of the pockets of middle and working class people. The Green Shift is just code for doing so. A tax on carbon is a tax on everything. There is nothing that we consume which will not be effected by it. There is nothing that is manufactured, transported, sold or consumed in this country which will not be subject to it. In fact it is a much more wide reaching tax than the GST.

As I said that is your opinion.

[Wilber]

As I said that is your opinion.

One you will not refute it seems.