How Immigration Policy has Created a "Cultureless" Canada

[CANADIEN]

Somali taxi drivers socialize 95% of the day and evade taxes.

They do not work.

Modern Immigrants are amongst the laziest people i've ever worked with in my life and I honesty have no clue where this 'hard working' thing came from. Maybe it was from immigrans of yesteryear? I dont know..

They feel 'entitled' to miss work for family events and religous and cultural gatherings. They easily get the most time off work and the best schedules. The will sign up for 24x7 availibility, get hired, and always have excuses on their first day why they need the 8-4 shifts. We all sat there in training (first job) and whitnessed the immigrants getting the best shifts while the canucks got the crapy hours.

They really do put themselves above Canadians. They feel they are more educated and deserve more and the whities are immoral and trash with no culture. They'll show us a thing or two about how you run things properly... in... Tyran! Or Dehli.. Or Islamabad! Yeah they got it right.... we got it all wrong.

I suggest they learn how to type, read the alphabet and use deoderant.

And then book one way plane tickets back home so we can get our country back on course from our 20 year hiatis.

(oh and take your kids, auntie, and grandparents with you).

Considering the garbage you post (remember when you were planningto tell the family of the Greyhound murder victim immigrants were to blame for their loss), I easily understand why there more than a few immigrants who would feel superiror to YOU.

[jbg]

McGuinty says that Ontario has 100,000 jobs that can't be filled because there aren't qualified people in this province to fill them. If that's the case, then our educational system and governments are failing us.

How can that not be the case when you have public schooteachers (two of them in Peterborough, Ontario that I know of who I met in NYC) who don't know who Montcalm and Wolfe were and don't know what happened at the Plains of Abraham.

Come to think of it, returning to the thread subject, it's kind of hard to imagine how Canadian culture and history can be taught by people who don't know the equivalent of the Pilgrims' or Jamestown settler's exploits. For an American who knows little about Canada to be teaching Montcalme, Wolfe and Plains of Abraham to Canadian schoolteachers is sad. Quite sad.

You cannot blame that on immigrants.

[jbg]

Is English your first language? I suggest that you work on your own skills before criticizing others.

Some post in haste, while tired, etc. And some don't know either of Canada's officiall three languages.

Edited August 27, 2008 by jbg

[jbg]

Considering the garbage that you post (remember when you were planningto planning to tell the family of the Greyhound murder victim that immigrants were to blame for their loss), I easily understand why there more than a few immigrants who would feel superiror superior to YOU.

Post edited. As I would say in certain situations "Engrish prease".

[CANADIEN]

How can that not be the case when you have public schooteachers (two of them in Peterborough, Ontario that I know of who I met in NYC) who don't know who Montcalm and Wolfe were and don't know what happened at the Plains of Abraham.

Let's talk about the American who thought his ancestor came on the Mayflower then walked all the way to what is now Ontario during the American Revolution (yep, the same ancestor). He went through the US education system.

[jbg]

Let's talk about the American who thought his ancestor came on the Mayflower then walked all the way to what is now Ontario during the American Revolution (yep, the same ancestor). He went through the US education system.

That person (whoever that mythical person was) was hopefully not a schoolteacher.

Also, please punctuate your sentences.

[jbg]

JBG,

Care to explain where this "letter" comes from?

Or do I have to tell everyone for you?

I told everyone, on the opening post, exactly where it came from. It came as part of a chain e-mail, unattributed. Post any garbage you wish about its origins.

[Ontario Loyalist]

You cannot blame that on immigrants.

Actually, yes you can, in a way. Some people seem to think that teaching Canadian history equates to imposing dominant culture on (certain) minorities. The educational system is now bent on not trying to offend people from other cultures, recent immigrants, who have their own histories and cultures that apparently are more important to protect than our own. There are certainly some aspects of Canadian history that are not pleasant, but our forefathers recognized this and have made efforts to change this, and in many cases have been successful; Canada has a high standard of living and its citizens freedoms and rights denied to many others as a result. Ignoring our past, not understanding it, or allowing certain agendas to "revise" it, will only lead to further problems.

An excellent book to read on this subject: Who Killed Canadian History?

[CANADIEN]

That person (whoever that mythical person was) was hopefully not a schoolteacher.

That person is no more and no less of a myth than your two schoolteachers. And he had gone to school.

Edited August 26, 2008 by CANADIEN

[jbg]

That person is no more and no less of a myth than your two schoolteachers. And he was taught by a schoolteacher.

Excuse me.

I met those two teachers myself at a Great Big Sea concert in New York City during April 2006. I was shocked at the ignorance. I am not a liar.

Edited August 26, 2008 by jbg

[CANADIEN]

Excuse me.

I met those two teachers myself at a Great Big Sea concert in New York City during April 2006. I was shocked at the ignorance. I am not a lawyer.

Did I call you a liar? Nope. It didn't even cross my mind that the story might not be true. In case you have forgotten, YOU stated that the person I mentioned was mythical.

BTW, that story came to me from a reliable source, and is a true one. Having seen other examples of similar degrees of ignorance from all over the world, I was more amused that shocked.

Edited August 26, 2008 by CANADIEN

[jbg]

That you are not a lawyer has nothing to do with this. As from my story, it came directly from someone who had seen a letter written by the descendant of that surprisingly old Mayflower Pilgrim. Having seen other examples of similar degrees of ignorance from all over the world, I was more amused that shocked.

The post was edited to say "I am not a liar". I am actually an attorney.

There may be worldwide examples of that ignorance. But peddling ignorance in the schools. Yes, in the schools. That is why I'm shocked.

Edited August 26, 2008 by jbg

[jbg]

BTW, that story came to me from a reliable source, and is a true one. Having seen other examples of similar degrees of ignorance from all over the world, I was more amused that shocked.

Amusing story, which I do believe. Stupidity is boundless.

[JB Globe]

I think it says quite a lot about your entire argument that you're relying on a Canadian rip-off of an American email chain letter to provide context to your irrationally xenophobic worldview.

Forget facts, let's stir up some emotions about a past that never existed, yes?

I refer you to the entry on this email from snopes.com (the leading site on urban legends, referenced often by CNN, Fox News, etc) I think it just about covers exactly the kind of revisionist agenda in the American "letter" as is present in the Canadian one.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/immigration/newimmigrants.asp

This piece provides an apt illustration of the phenomenon that one can find in nearly every culture, in every era, a group of people who firmly believe that their civilization once experienced a golden age in which social conditions were much better (if not perfect), and modern society is an increasingly worsening corruption of that arcadian past. The trend continues today, as we commonly see responses to social, political, or economic issues that attempt to contrast the present with earlier eras, to hearken back to times when such problems were significantly ameliorated or simply did not exist. Generally such reactions don't ring true, referring not to the way things really used to be, but to idealized, mythical visions of the past couched in absolute terms. So it is with this letter, which attempts to contrast the "modern immigrant" with immigrants of a century ago, finding the former sadly lacking by comparison. As usual, it references a black-and-white past that never existed.

This fits both the original "letter" and JBG's own account of his family history (and then using that to generalize the history of ALL immigrants of that era). Both accounts are totally absolute - the old immigrants were complete saints, no mention is made of any sort of "wrong" act that may have been committed. For any rational person who knows their history this would immediately send up a red flag - there are no absolutes in any society, at any time. It's a sign that the author is writing more about an imagined myth than the reality on the ground.

Yes, many of the immigrants who streamed through Ellis Island into the United States around the turn of the century worked hard, obeyed the laws, did their best to learn English (and otherwise become assimilated into American culture), raised children who willingly took up arms to defend their adoptive country in times of crisis, and made their way in the world (and perhaps even prospered) with little or no help from the government or anyone outside their immediate families and circles of acquaintances. However, plenty of immigrants in that same era did not fit that mold, such as those who:

* Resorted to scams, petty theft, and all sorts of other crimes to get by, or simply resumed the same kinds of criminal activities they'd been perpetrating in their homelands, sometimes on large, organized scales (e.g., the Italian mafia, Chinese triads).

* Moved to enclaves or communities in which their original cultures and languages were preserved, obviating the need for them to ever assimilate into the broader American culture or learn English. (If the immigrants of earlier eras "stirred the melting pot into one red, white and blue bowl," then who started all the ethnic enclaves, such as Little Germany and Chinatown, found in New York and many other American cities?) Their children (and future generations) were often left to learn English and assimilate as best they could on their own, driven by necessity rather than allegiance to American national ideals.

* Retained their original family names, or changed their names only reluctantly — the latter not to "blend in with their new home," but to try to escape the prejudices, persecution, and violence typically visited upon members of various national, ethnic, and religious groups in the U.S. (e.g., Catholics, Jews, Irish, Italians).

* Declined to participate in fighting for the U.S. against their home countries in World War I (as did their children in World War II), or even left the U.S. to return home and fight for the other side. (And certainly many first-generation Americans of Japanese descent, who found themselves restricted to internment camps merely due to their ancestry, gave plenty of "thought about what country their parents had come from.")

* Disdained free lunches, welfare, and labor laws not because they were virtuous and prized self-sufficiency, but because those government programs did not yet exist, either for native-born American citizens or immigrants.

What this piece illustrates is not so much substantive differences between "old immigrants" and "new immigrants," but rather the truthfulness of the proverb "Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose."

In short, old immigrants are not saints, and new immigrants are not devils. Fact of the matter is that while some people would love to think that their grandparents were part of some golden generation who were all staunch patriots, the reality is that they were just as human as the current crop of immigrants.

And I defy any of you who think otherwise to provide factual and historical information to prove your point. The fact that so far this post is full of nothing but your first-hand impressions of the past illustrates that you're operating in the realm of myth, rather than in reality.

[M.Dancer]

This letter to the editor is from an unknown source. It has shown up in both "American" and "Canadian" versions, leading me to believe that it was never published in a copyrighted manner. My response will be on next post.

How Immigration Policy has Created a "Cultureless" Canada..

=======================================

A Letter to the Editor (excellent letter) .

(Author Unknown)

Hope this letter is read by millions of people all across Canada!!

Like most chain letters, this one is at best nonsense. I would be willing to wager if it was ever sent by the author to a Canadian paper, it didn't get printed....

An ealier version appears here.

http://www.menifee247.com/2008/01/new-cali...s-education.htm

[JB Globe]

When I see the child of an immigrant speaking without an accent, acting and dressing like Canadians, with the same hopes and dreams, the same cultural values, the same belief system, the same attitudes towards freedoms and government and their fellow citizens, then I think immigration isn't such a bad thing.

1 - What is your definition of "acting & dressing Canadian"

2 - Since when do all Canadians have the same belief system in the first place? And what is this system supposed to be? The Catholic faith? Anglican? Does that mean athiests are left out

3 - Since when do Canadians in general have the same attitudes towards freedoms and government? We're a democracy, we're not all supposed to have the same ideas about our institutions.

It sounds like you're holding immigrant-citizens to a ridiculously stringent standard that you wouldn't hold Canadian-born-citizens to.

Unfortunately, I rarely see such a thing. Immigrant parents today are absolutely determined to keep their children foreign.

Do you have any factual information to back this up? If not, than why should anyone believe you?

They fight and claw against losing their home culture, and want to preserve it forever here. They make sure their kids speak their language, make sure they understand the importance of going by their home country's traditions and morality, often sending them to special schools which help keep the old ways and hatreds alive, and even go so far as to send their grown children back to their homeland when it's time to find a spouse. They look disapprovingly, even contemptuously at Canadians and their behaviour and sense of morality, and want no part of it for their kids.

I think this qualifies as a rant.

The poster family for this, of course, is the Khadr family.

Great job. So far you've proven that there's ONE family that fits your definition. Only a few hundred thousand more to go.

[jbg]

I think it says quite a lot about your entire argument that you're relying on a Canadian rip-off of an American email chain letter to provide context to your irrationally xenophobic worldview.

Forget facts, let's stir up some emotions about a past that never existed, yes?

Excuse me Sir.

Someone thought those thoughts and wrote that post. Does it matter a darn where it came from, other than ensuring that it's not from a copyrighted source?

Xenophobic? Do you want Canada to emulate the cr@pholes these people hail from? I sure don't want that for the US. I don't think Obama wants to head back to Kenya or Indonesia.

[jbg]

This fits both the original "letter" and JBG's own account of his family history (and then using that to generalize the history of ALL immigrants of that era). Both accounts are totally absolute - the old immigrants were complete saints, no mention is made of any sort of "wrong" act that may have been committed.

My great grandfather fled while serving in the Czar's army. Now are you satisfied?

[M.Dancer]

My great grandfather fled while serving in the Czar's army. Now are you satisfied?

Ah! A deserter?

DEPORT HIM

[JB Globe]

Someone thought those thoughts and wrote that post. Does it matter a darn where it came from, other than ensuring that it's not from a copyrighted source?

Of course it does. A text which is plagiarized, anonymous, and does not contain any factual information to back up its claims is a BAD TEXT. The only thing the source may do is tell us how the author feels - but since we don't know the author, we can't really say if it was the person's honest feelings, or if the text is actually part of someone or some organizations' propaganda campaign.

Generally, people don't use bad sources as the basis for a supposedly good argument. There's a reason that (no matter what the topic at hand) you won't see any one on this board using plagiarized anonymous chain emails in their posts. The reason? - it makes the poster's argument look weak by association, and it doesn't add anything (say, facts) to the argument either.

I really don't know why you think this was a good thing to post - maybe you were lazy and didn't want to bother looking for something more credible? Maybe you couldn't find anything that supported your argument that was any better? Who knows.

Xenophobic?

Of course it is. I think an absolute statement about ALL (not even some, but ALL) new immigrants being negative, without offering any facts to back it up, qualifies this text as being xenophobic.

Do you want Canada to emulate the cr@pholes these people hail from? I sure don't want that for the US.

I think perhaps you are being lazy, hence this straw man argument.

Perhaps you could actually do some work for a change and connect the dots - show me the relationship between integrating immigrants into a Multicultural Canadian society, and that society turning into a "craphole"

I find it telling you think that all immigrants come from "crapholes," irregardless of which country it is. Your belief that (new) immigrants are crap contributes to your views of where their coming from, and vice-versa.

I don't think Obama wants to head back to Kenya or Indonesia.

Obama isn't from Kenya or Indonesia - he was born in America, and only lived abroad for around two years of his life. Having a parent who is an immigrant doesn't strip you of your citizenship

You regularly make comments such as this - implicating a person isn't Canadian or American simply because they're not white, or because of what religion they follow, while ignoring the obvious criteria for determining someone's nationality - CITIZENSHIP.

Why do you do this?

[JB Globe]

My great grandfather fled while serving in the Czar's army. Now are you satisfied?

I'm not talking about "wrong" acts committed by old immigrants before they came to Canada, I'm talking about things old immigrants did once they got to Canada.

Your rose-tinted, nostalgic mythology of what old immigrants were "really" like is not based in reality, and is not supported by any factual information.

Some Old immigrants:

- lived in ethnic enclaves (Kensington Market, The Ward)

- Were part of organized crime (the Mafia)

- Participated in riots (Christie Pits Riots)

- Didn't learn English, didn't integrate

While most old immigrants lived a productive and law-abiding life, integrated into Canadian society and contributed a great deal to it. That didn't stop xenophobes in society from focusing almost solely on the few bad apples, and ignoring the rest. You can see this in op-ed pieces in the Star & Globe from that era - the way anti-immigrant commentators spoke about those old immigrants is strikingly similar to how they're talked about today.

Old immigrants were no worse or better than new immigrants are today.

The problem is that people are creating false myths about the past in order to justify their anti-immigrant agendas in the present. Most believe the myth to be true, but some know it's false yet still actively promote it because the ends justify the means.

What's most disturbing however is to see the descendants of old immigrants who believe in this false myth. It's very disheartening to watch them fill the role of the xenophobe/anti-immigrant - especially when their parent's lives were made so difficult by those people. There's something stomach-churning about the descendants of people who experienced racism promoting racism against a new crop of immigrants.

I understand it, but I don't condone it - In light of anti-immigrant attitudes, it's a method of distancing oneself from these new "bad" immigrants by claiming one's own immigrant ancestors were totally different from new immigrants, and were angels, in effect.

[Ontario Loyalist]

Old immigrants were no worse or better than new immigrants are today.

I think you seriously misunderstand and underestimate Islam.

[JB Globe]

I think you seriously misunderstand and underestimate Islam.

Please continue . . .

[CANADIEN]

I'm not talking about "wrong" acts committed by old immigrants before they came to Canada, I'm talking about things old immigrants did once they got to Canada.

Your rose-tinted, nostalgic mythology of what old immigrants were "really" like is not based in reality, and is not supported by any factual information.

Some Old immigrants:

- lived in ethnic enclaves (Kensington Market, The Ward)

- Were part of organized crime (the Mafia)

- Participated in riots (Christie Pits Riots)

- Didn't learn English, didn't integrate

While most old immigrants lived a productive and law-abiding life, integrated into Canadian society and contributed a great deal to it. That didn't stop xenophobes in society from focusing almost solely on the few bad apples, and ignoring the rest. You can see this in op-ed pieces in the Star & Globe from that era - the way anti-immigrant commentators spoke about those old immigrants is strikingly similar to how they're talked about today.

Old immigrants were no worse or better than new immigrants are today.

The problem is that people are creating false myths about the past in order to justify their anti-immigrant agendas in the present. Most believe the myth to be true, but some know it's false yet still actively promote it because the ends justify the means.

What's most disturbing however is to see the descendants of old immigrants who believe in this false myth. It's very disheartening to watch them fill the role of the xenophobe/anti-immigrant - especially when their parent's lives were made so difficult by those people. There's something stomach-churning about the descendants of people who experienced racism promoting racism against a new crop of immigrants.

I understand it, but I don't condone it - In light of anti-immigrant attitudes, it's a method of distancing oneself from these new "bad" immigrants by claiming one's own immigrant ancestors were totally different from new immigrants, and were angels, in effect.

Hear, hear!

Reminds me of one man who came from Eastern Europe to Canada just after WWI... One of thousands of immigrants from that part of the world many considered as unable to adapt, unwilling to fully integrate and probably communists to boot. And guess what, there were some that fit the bill perfectly. So perhaps the man should have been sent back to Minsk and his sons and grandsons should have stayed there... on the other hand, there is something wrong about the idea of Vladimir Gretzky, no. 99 of the Soviet hockey team.

And it is a little known fact that in the 1920's and 1930's a particular group of immigrants was targetted by some politicians who considered them undesirables that should be sent back to their "cr@phole"... the London (England) slums.

[CANADIEN]

When I see the child of an immigrant speaking without an accent (...)

I speak English with a fairly noticeable French-Canadian accent. I suppose I am not Canadian enough.

, acting and dressing like Canadians (...)

And how does a Canadian drsses, pray tell?

with the same hopes and dreams, the same cultural values

My mother never liked hockey. I suppose she wasn't Canadian enough

the same belief system, the same attitudes towards freedoms and government and their fellow citizens

We obviously do not share the same belief or the same attitude towards freedom and our fellow citizens (meaning, among other things, I do not think of slavery as a good idea). I suppose I am not Canadian enough.

Unfortunately, I rarely see such a thing. Immigrant parents today are absolutely determined to keep their children foreign. They fight and claw against losing their home culture, and want to preserve it forever here. They make sure their kids speak their language, make sure they understand the importance of going by their home country's traditions and morality, often sending them to special schools which help keep the old ways and hatreds alive, and even go so far as to send their grown children back to their homeland when it's time to find a spouse. They look disapprovingly, even contemptuously at Canadians and their behaviour and sense of morality, and want no part of it for their kids.

As it was said by someone else on this thread, nothing that didn't happen with immigrants who came before. It actually started with the English and French settlers.

Edited August 28, 2008 by CANADIEN