Kucinich Forces Impeachment Vote

[Guest American Woman]

Few more terms of Bush policies, you might not have to carry the superpower burden anymore.

I hope not. I don't believe in one superpower. The world is all of ours, we all have to live in it, and as such, should not be subject to any one nation's "powers." Having said that, I hope no other nation emerges to simply replace the U.S. in that role. Depending on the nation, one might be hoping that the U.S. had that position again; but no matter what nation(s) it would be, the EU, for example, they would soon be 'hated' too because that's generally what happens when one gets power-- and that's also many people's reaction to power.

[peter_puck]

I hope not. I don't believe in one superpower. The world is all of ours, we all have to live in it, and as such, should not be subject to any one nation's "powers." Having said that, I hope no other nation emerges to simply replace the U.S. in that role. Depending on the nation, one might be hoping that the U.S. had that position again; but no matter what nation(s) it would be, the EU, for example, they would soon be 'hated' too because that's generally what happens when one gets power-- and that's also many people's reaction to power.

I really think it is going to be China at the rate its going. It is gaining rapidly in almost every area where the US has had an advantage in the past. It is also a more functional society than the US. They don't have one lawyer for every 300 people like California does. They don't have the massive welfare state or prison system to weigh them down. They don't really have to worry about public opinion. They graduate massive amounts of Science/Engineering graduates.

Don't get me wrong, I certainly don't admire their policies, I am just saying they are gaining rapidly, and at this rate, will overtake the US at some point.

[bush_cheney2004]

....Don't get me wrong, I certainly don't admire their policies, I am just saying they are gaining rapidly, and at this rate, will overtake the US at some point.

Actually, what they are doing is emulating the United States....not overtaking it. The Chinese graduate students come to the USA, not vice-versa. Only India sends more students to the USA, and they have a huge (English) language advantage.

As mentioned before....when China finally gets to the Moon, the Americans will wave on their way to Mars.

[peter_puck]

Actually, what they are doing is emulating the United States....not overtaking it. The Chinese graduate students come to the USA, not vice-versa. Only India sends more students to the USA, and they have a huge (English) language advantage.

As mentioned before....when China finally gets to the Moon, the Americans will wave on their way to Mars.

Actually, the number of foreign students had been declining (although the dollar's collapse has been helping to slow this down)

No, they are not overtaking the US YET, but they are catching up in a big hurry. The US has a technical advantage right now, but China is training far more engineers and scientists. Is there any reason that there greater number of scientists will not outproduce are smaller number ?

[bush_cheney2004]

Actually, the number of foreign students had been declining (although the dollar's collapse has been helping to slow this down)

That's what Canadians say about the "brain drain" too. Still doesn't stop the net bleeding.

No, they are not overtaking the US YET, but they are catching up in a big hurry. The US has a technical advantage right now, but China is training far more engineers and scientists. Is there any reason that there greater number of scientists will not outproduce are smaller number ?

Yes....the technology transfer is mostly one way...I know this from personal experience. China's post secondary education system is decades behind the United States. There is a reason so many international graduate students come to America (including Canada).

One would expect that the numbers used in such debate would be defensible and grounded. Yet researchers at Duke University have determined that some of the most cited statistics on engineering graduates are inaccurate. Statistics that say the U.S. is producing 70,000 engineers a year vs. 350,000 from India and 600,000 from China aren't valid, the Duke team says. We're actually graduating more engineers than India, and the Chinese numbers aren't quite what they seem. In short, America is far ahead by almost any measure, and we're a long way from losing our edge.

http://www.businessweek.com/print/smallbiz...1212_623922.htm

I heard another metric on the radio this week....the United States has won about 60% of all Nobel Prizes (with citizens and non-citizens). Don't know if that's true, but it is reassuring that America remains very competitive.

Edited June 28, 2008 by bush_cheney2004

[peter_puck]

I heard another metric on the radio this week....the United States has won about 60% of all Nobel Prizes (with citizens and non-citizens). Don't know if that's true, but it is reassuring that America remains very competitive.

I would not take a lot of comfort in that. Most Nobel Prizes (with the exception of the peace prize) are for old work. Up until recent years, the resources to conduct top level research were only available in the US, Western Europe, Canada, Australia and Japan.

Also, remember two of those prizes belong to Carter and Gore :-)

[bush_cheney2004]

I would not take a lot of comfort in that.

Of course you wouldn't...you're Canadian...right!?

Most Nobel Prizes (with the exception of the peace prize) are for old work. Up until recent years, the resources to conduct top level research were only available in the US, Western Europe, Canada, Australia and Japan.

OK...I will be waiting for the plethora of awards to Chinese "resources".

Also, remember two of those prizes belong to Carter and Gore :-)

Both are Americans...no?

[peter_puck]

Of course you wouldn't...you're Canadian...right!?

OK...I will be waiting for the plethora of awards to Chinese "resources".

Of course not. The Chinese are still behind - my point is that they are catching up. I think Japan would be a good analogy. At the end of world war two, they produced cheap crap. Everyone laughed at their cars. Now they make better cars than the US does. It will take time, but thats the problem you face. Eventually Chinese scientists are going to catch up to your Chinese scientists.

The question then is what happens when they catch up. Japan has the same problem as the US - they are a democracy. The prosperity gets directed towards personal needs.

China is different, prosperity can be directed towards scientific and military aims. They don't have to go into debt because it is an election year- There are no "earmarks".They don't have the welfare state or prison problems that suck so much energy from the US economy. They don't have to worry about polution. There is little ethical restraint on their foreign policy.

[bush_cheney2004]

Of course not. The Chinese are still behind - my point is that they are catching up. I think Japan would be a good analogy. At the end of world war two, they produced cheap crap. Everyone laughed at their cars. Now they make better cars than the US does. It will take time, but thats the problem you face. Eventually Chinese scientists are going to catch up to your Chinese scientists.

At the end of WW2, they had no choice but to produce "crap"...such was not the case during the war. Catching up to an America that existed deacdes ago is not catching up. The Japanese quality systems came from Americans (e.g. Dr. W. Edwards Deming).

The question then is what happens when they catch up. Japan has the same problem as the US - they are a democracy. The prosperity gets directed towards personal needs.

China is different, prosperity can be directed towards scientific and military aims. They don't have to go into debt because it is an election year- There are no "earmarks".They don't have the welfare state or prison problems that suck so much energy from the US economy. They don't have to worry about polution. There is little ethical restraint on their foreign policy.

I think you have answered the question as to why "catching up" will be harder than you think. The Americans have something that China has never had.

[GostHacked]

You don't have the post secondary, or even secondary, may even be primary education systems in China. They do have the technology, and plenty of that came from 'western' countries. But they do not have the brain power. Or China has no idea how to effectively use that brainpower.

But once they get the brainpower, they already have the technology, they will be able to do much more. Being a communist country, all the top brains would work on the common goal. No spotlight, no ego, no problem. Even if you have Nobel Prize potentials in China, does not mean you will ever hear about them.

[bush_cheney2004]

You don't have the post secondary, or even secondary, may even be primary education systems in China. They do have the technology, and plenty of that came from 'western' countries. But they do not have the brain power. Or China has no idea how to effectively use that brainpower.

It goes beyond just "brain power"....it's the cookie cutter group-think approach that will always be a drag. One of the most valuable experiences that Chinese students get in America is the ability to think (and act) independently. China is one of the longest surviving cultures on earth, but the answers it seeks come from abroad.

But once they get the brainpower, they already have the technology, they will be able to do much more. Being a communist country, all the top brains would work on the common goal. No spotlight, no ego, no problem. Even if you have Nobel Prize potentials in China, does not mean you will ever hear about them.

That's what the Soviet Union thought too. Ditto the Maoists. China is straining under the load of what we long ago recognized as "Future Shock" (Toffler). It is the Chinese youth mimicking American pop culture, not vice versa. I watched an interesting PBS piece on an aspiring Chinese hip-hop artist living in poverty....makes burned out Detroit look pretty damn good in comparison.

[GostHacked]

That's what the Soviet Union thought too. Ditto the Maoists. China is straining under the load of what we long ago recognized as "Future Shock" (Toffler). It is the Chinese youth mimicking American pop culture, not vice versa. I watched an interesting PBS piece on an aspiring Chinese hip-hop artist living in poverty....makes burned out Detroit look pretty damn good in comparison.

The Soviet Union was different. During the cold war, the US outspend the USSR to death. The USSR invested in the technology and equipment, but lacked funds after the fact to pay the personelle. The military took a huge hit because of it. This was their demise.

We know that many Chinese want to emulate and live the 'American Dream'. The emerging middle class in China is proof of this. China has a better chance than the USSR. There is more of an ecomonic tie to the US and the rest of the world, which gives them a huge advantage with being able to survive in the open markets. China has ben invested in by the US and other western countries with textiles and electonics manufacturing.

I could be wrong, but I doubt the USSR had as much foreign investement as China now has. I doubt they even came close. Has the US or any american company invested in China during the Cold War??

I will grant you the Chinese could suffer from futureshock, only because the amount of investing that has taken place in China. The USSR never had the oppourtunity, not many invested in them. This is why the USSR does not exist anymore. China is still China. They have survived this long as China, I don't see them going away anytime soon.