Deaths of Aboriginal Children

charter.rights · May 5, 2008

An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim.
and you have the audacity to call me on AH after your response to Melanie above

nice try six fig but people in your income class and people in my income class will always have differing views

I see corruption , misspending and a broken system firsthand and think it must be fixed for the future of first nations in Canada

Your view will not obviously change as you think throwing more money at the issue is the answer. You are part of the system, and to admit fault would admit that maybe your life is an exercise in futility and that you are part of a broken system that wastes tyaxpayers dollars

Rose coloured glasses don`t work well in the trenches where I work - must be more effective in your ivory tower - must be an issue of perspective and the people who do not share yours being ``loads of crap``

Good luck six fig - I truly hope you do succeed - it would be good for Canada

Don`t forget to cue DM to sling viceral insults on your behalf

You view is warped by the mass conditioning and myths perpetrated by colonialism and likely by your parents who were also subjects of the backward thinking.

If you had half as much ambition as the native people I work with, you might be able to earn six figures too. But alas you don't and you would rather complain about native people then to get your hands dirty working beside them. Poverty isn't an issue on the many of the reserves I deal with since they are tobacco manufactures with hundreds of millions to spend on SUVs and cottages. If only you had it so good!

nothinarian · May 5, 2008

You view is warped by the mass conditioning and myths perpetrated by colonialism and likely by your parents who were also subjects of the backward thinking.
. Poverty isn't an issue on the many of the reserves I deal with since they are tobacco manufactures with hundreds of millions to spend on SUVs and cottages. If only you had it so good!

bang or twang six fig - now you indirectly insult my parents - see Ad Homiun

Your direct experience with natives and my direct experience with natives are worlds apart

Yours may be working but the one I am familiar with in Eastern Canada has seen third party managers installed, 5 band employees are being investigated by the RCMP, and millions have been lost in one misguided venture after another

Two different realities are impossible to debate and but I do hope yours prevails for the sake of the bottom line of this country

If you had half as much ambition as the native people I work with, you might be able to earn six figures too. But alas you don't and you would rather complain about native people then to get your hands dirty working beside them

Are you for real - As mentioned earlier I have an aboriginal business partner - I guess my backward thinking(and recently deceased in the case of my mother) parents weren`t effective in brainwashing me

charter.rights · May 5, 2008

bang or twang six fig - now you indirectly insult my parents - see Ad Homiun
Your direct experience with natives and my direct experience with natives are worlds apart

Yours may be working but the one I am familiar with in Eastern Canada has seen third party managers installed, 5 band employees are being investigated by the RCMP, and millions have been lost in one misguided venture after another

Two different realities are impossible to debate and but I do hope yours prevails for the sake of the bottom line of this country

Are you for real - As mentioned earlier I have an aboriginal business partner - I guess my backward thinking(and recently deceased in the case of my mother) parents weren`t effective in brainwashing me

Native bands are thrust into third party management for as little as failing to submit all that paperwork INAC doesn't look at. Your perceptions still are not accurate even thought there may be some differences in the people populating the reserves. That fact is that the government continues to undermine First Nations and I'l bet a dime to a dollar that the government has some hand in the venture failures. You see they don't want native to get ahead, nor it seems do you.

BTW I have a dutch client but that does not give me a clue at what happens in Holland from my dealings with him. Your trophy native partner is of no importance to this discussion.

Edited May 5, 2008 by charter.rights

nothinarian · May 5, 2008

Native bands are thrust into third party management for as little as failing to submit all that paperwork INAC doesn't look at. Your perceptions still are not accurate even thought there may be some differences in the people populating the reserves

Not in this case six fig - they are in debt due to corruption and mismanagement, millions of dollars in debt, and 5 individuals are being investigated by the RCMP

My native partner sees the corruption and agrees with me that the system is broken and needs to be fixed - and like me he believes in ec dev just not in the present form

Are you that arrogant that you believe your experience with natives is somehow the defining experience?

but forgive me six fig - you would know more about his situation and he probably had backward parents as I did who led him astray - he'll be interested to hear of your perspective

sleep well six fig and keep those rose colured Raybans polished as you milk the native bands for your six figure salary

Udder arrogance

DangerMouse · May 5, 2008

Not in this case six fig - they are in debt due to corruption and mismanagement, millions of dollars in debt, and 5 individuals are being investigated by the RCMP
My native partner sees the corruption and agrees with me that the system is broken and needs to be fixed - and like me he believes in ec dev just not in the present form

Are you that arrogant that you believe your experience with natives is somehow the defining experience?

but forgive me six fig - you would know more about his situation and he probably had backward parents as I did who led him astray - he'll be interested to hear of your perspective

sleep well six fig and keep those rose colured Raybans polished as you milk the native bands for your six figure salary

Udder arrogance

Hey at least charter is up front about it...all you other bimbos don't even see the true picture...the majority of tht cash falls elsewhere and not directly to natives--this is what I meant about a "lightbulb" moment...needless to say, one day nothinaryan may see the light :lol:

nothinarian · May 5, 2008

Native bands are thrust into third party management for as little as failing to submit all that paperwork INAC doesn't look at. Your perceptions still are not accurate even thought there may be some differences in the people populating the reserves. That fact is that the government continues to undermine First Nations and I'l bet a dime to a dollar that the government has some hand in the venture failures. You see they don't want native to get ahead, nor it seems do you.
BTW I have a dutch client but that does not give me a clue at what happens in Holland from my dealings with him. Your trophy native partner is of no importance to this discussion.

six fig - just so you know of what we speak - see grassroots native website link alleging corruption; and third party managers report of dec 12,2007 detailing investigations underway

http://www.tfnam.org/TPM%20Report%2012.12.07.pdf

http://www.newtfn.com/fdup.html

six fig - deer in the headlights -bang , twang baby yet again :lol:

this is getting to be fun

August1991 · May 5, 2008

Hey August, do you get some sort of cheap thrill from the term Indian? Grow up? Your worse than the "little boy right wingers." When you say half baked, do you mean half ripped? The way you post, you're the whining one....

It is called the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs and the main legislation is the Indian Act so I guess we can refer to them as Indians. In deference however, I used aboriginal in the thread title.

I agree that giving support to children in crisis is the first step to justice.

I think you missed my point, CR.

As long as someone can avoid responsibilty for one's acts, then there will be no good. True, punishing this father will not bring these two children back to life. But punishing him might make other fathers think twice before committing similar acts.

It is the lack of responsibility that I find so offensive in discussions with and about Indians. The Indian Act has turned them into children.

First Nation band councils only receive about $1600 per person per year to cover all things we take for granted in our towns and cities. Comparatively our municipal council receive about $16,000 per year in federal and provincial transfers. If you think you can turn that $1600 into $16,000 worth of services I have a pond you might want to walk on.

Do you have a link to support that claim?

You also realize that there are more native children in foster care today than all of those that attended residential schools in a one year period? 27,000 native children have been removed from their families on reserved and trek away to our towns and cities as foster children. 27,000! All that and they underfund child and family services on reserve by over 70%. And did you know what the number one reason that native children are removed form their homes? It isn't abuse. It isn't neglect. It isn't because their homes are unsafe. IT IS for poverty!

Once again CR, do you have a link to support this claim?

In general, children are only removed from families in extreme cases of neglect. Simple poverty is not a reason. I am inclined to wonder how many more cases of frozen children or shot toddlers there would be if they stayed with their parents.

----

Land on reserve is held in common and should never be titled. The reason the Tories want to create a title system is so they can steal it by forcing natives to sell their lands.

CR, I suppose that you consider your six figure salary as "yours" and not "common" property. So, I'm a bit intrigued that you would object to extending this notion of property beyond your bank account to land. Several centuries ago, many people around the world had notions of common property but these have evolved over time. Nowadays, most people believe that property is best defined to an individual. For example, slavery is rare in this world since it is best that we all own at least ourselves.

Anyway, I'm not certain what this or your salary has to do with protecting aboriginal children. Then again, we need some outside the box thinking on this.

charter.rights · May 5, 2008

It is called the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs and the main legislation is the Indian Act so I guess we can refer to them as Indians. In deference however, I used aboriginal in the thread title.
I think you missed my point, CR.

As long as someone can avoid responsibilty for one's acts, then there will be no good. True, punishing this father will not bring these two children back to life. But punishing him might make other fathers think twice before committing similar acts.

It is the lack of responsibility that I find so offensive in discussions with and about Indians. The Indian Act has turned them into children.

Do you have a link to support that claim?

Once again CR, do you have a link to support this claim?

In general, children are only removed from families in extreme cases of neglect. Simple poverty is not a reason. I am inclined to wonder how many more cases of frozen children or shot toddlers there would be if they stayed with their parents.

----

CR, I suppose that you consider your six figure salary as "yours" and not "common" property. So, I'm a bit intrigued that you would object to extending this notion of property beyond your bank account to land. Several centuries ago, many people around the world had notions of common property but these have evolved over time. Nowadays, most people believe that property is best defined to an individual. For example, slavery is rare in this world since it is best that we all own at least ourselves.

Anyway, I'm not certain what this or your salary has to do with protecting aboriginal children. Then again, we need some outside the box thinking on this.

See the discussion here. Then follow the math - the example of Six Nations. And they are one of the largest and more affluent reserves in Canada.

See AFN Nation Chief Phil Fountaine's speech and look for "Child Welfare Crisis".

August1991 · May 7, 2008

See the discussion here. Then follow the math - the example of Six Nations. And they are one of the largest and more affluent reserves in Canada.

From the link you provided:

The health transfer results in $228 per person for one whole year. Do you think that is a lot? On the other hand the transfers to towns and cities equates to about $13,000 per year per person in Ontario. I'm not sure you are making the point you think you are. So let's take all of Six Nations as an example. I added up all the transfers that Six Nations recieved from policing to education to health etc. and it comes to $36,267,804 and with a band membership of about 22000 people that comes to about $1648.54 per person to cover all their infrastructure, health care, policing and educational costs.

Do you just make these numbers up?

Indian and Northern Affairs transferred around $6 billion according to the stats provided. That would put transfers to the Six Nations, on a per capita basis, around $200 million.

Money is not the problem here.

----

See AFN Nation Chief Phil Fountaine's speech and look for "Child Welfare Crisis".

From Fontaine's speech, I find this quote:

There are three times as many First Nation children in the care of child welfare agencies than there were in attendance at the height of the residential schools.
As we sit here today, approximately 27,000 First Nations children have been removed from their families, most as a result of poverty and neglect.

...

At the heart of our Action Plan is jurisdiction. As with all Canadians, First Nations have the right to determine what is best for the future of their children, and within their communities.

Jurisdiction means not only the authority to take control; it means the ability to do so. First Nations governments will require a fair share of resources for child welfare.

IOW, give us more money.

----

I can imagine some native activists in 2060 starting a "Truth and Reconciliation Commission" and demanding compensation from the federal government because they were taken from their parents 50 yeaqrs before and put into the child welfare system and then into foster care.

CR, I fear that it will still be about blaming the whites and getting them to give more money. I would hope rather that in 2060, young Indian kids are not dying because their Dad was too drunk to know any better.

Who's Doing What? · May 7, 2008

First Nation band councils only receive about $1600 per person per year to cover all things we take for granted in our towns and cities. Comparatively our municipal council receive about $16,000 per year in federal and provincial transfers. If you think you can turn that $1600 into $16,000 worth of services I have a pond you might want to walk on. The fact is that WE do that THEM. The reason is patently clear. If they are kept poor their are less apt to complain when we steal their land or resources if their are pre-occupied with living for the next meal.

AGAIN WITH THIS CRAP!!!!!

Once your precious Natives start contributing TAXES to the Federal and Provincial coffers then maybe they will get more transfer payments. Until then, SHUT-THA-HECK-UP and enjoy our money!

charter.rights · May 7, 2008

From the link you provided:Do you just make these numbers up?
Indian and Northern Affairs transferred around $6 billion according to the stats provided. That would put transfers to the Six Nations, on a per capita basis, around $200 million.

Money is not the problem here.

----

From Fontaine's speech, I find this quote:IOW, give us more money.

----

I can imagine some native activists in 2060 starting a "Truth and Reconciliation Commission" and demanding compensation from the federal government because they were taken from their parents 50 yeaqrs before and put into the child welfare system and then into foster care.

CR, I fear that it will still be about blaming the whites and getting them to give more money. I would hope rather that in 2060, young Indian kids are not dying because their Dad was too drunk to know any better.

Six Nations of the Grand only received about $1600 per person per capita. The $6 billion is the total amount of transfers to ALL First Nations in Canada. Once it is divided up it still only comes to about $1600 pert person. Try reading the whole thread past Slims first comment. I've presented all the numbers that verify the $1600.

charter.rights · May 7, 2008

AGAIN WITH THIS CRAP!!!!!
Once your precious Natives start contributing TAXES to the Federal and Provincial coffers then maybe they will get more transfer payments. Until then, SHUT-THA-HECK-UP and enjoy our money!

Hello again child.

Between the taxes that First Nations people off reserve pay, those with industries that pay taxes and the trusts that the government holds on behalf of First Nations, the net is they pay 10 times more in taxes per capita than they receive back in federal transfers. And if you include royalties that should have been paid on resources that we taken from their lands illegally then it turns out, they are paying more than us and contributing more to the tax base than us.

I realize this angers you since it bursts the little racist bubble you have built for yourself, but you know what? You had to grow up sometime.....

M.Dancer · May 7, 2008

Six Nations of the Grand only received about $1600 per person per capita. The $6 billion is the total amount of transfers to ALL First Nations in Canada. Once it is divided up it still only comes to about $1600 pert(sic) person. Try reading the whole thread past Slims first comment. I've presented all the numbers that verify the $1600.

Get a dictionary so you can learn how to spell. That way we might know what you are trying to say. Intelligence isn't your strong suit , now is it....?

See how it works?

charter.rights · May 7, 2008

Get a dictionary so you can learn how to spell. That way we might know what you are trying to say. Intelligence isn't your strong suit , now is it....?
See how it works?

Get a life, Ophelia. You have way too much time on your hands.

Who's Doing What? · May 8, 2008

Hello again child.
Between the taxes that First Nations people off reserve pay, those with industries that pay taxes and the trusts that the government holds on behalf of First Nations, the net is they pay 10 times more in taxes per capita than they receive back in federal transfers. And if you include royalties that should have been paid on resources that we taken from their lands illegally then it turns out, they are paying more than us and contributing more to the tax base than us.

I realize this angers you since it bursts the little racist bubble you have built for yourself, but you know what? You had to grow up sometime.....

Let me use a sledge hammer to try and drill this into your overly thick cranium.

The taxes off reserve natives pay goes to their own communities. It is not put aside in some seperate account to be handed over to the reserves. Their taxes are part of what each province and municipality gets back in transfer payments to keep their water clean, their roads plowed and for other general maintainence and local projects.

The taxes you refered to in the other thread were sales taxes collected by the Native company for the Govt. No company gets to keep the taxes on goods and services they provide. It doesn't matter if the company is run by a Native or Ikkbar straight off the boat from Saudi Arabia. The company is a collector and nothing more.

Time to get off the propaganda pipe my friend. You are getting more holes in your brain than a crystal meth addict.

I find it funny how everytime you are shown to be wrong you scream racism. FYI it makes you look even more foolish. Truth is I want equality for all Canadians. You are the one who seems to feel one race of people should be treated with privilege. So who is really the racist??

Edited May 8, 2008 by Who's Doing What?

charter.rights · May 8, 2008

Let me use a sledge hammer to try and drill this into your overly thick cranium.
The taxes off reserve natives pay goes to their own communities. It is not put aside in some seperate account to be handed over to the reserves. Their taxes are part of what each province and municipality gets back in transfer payments to keep their water clean, their roads plowed and for other general maintainence and local projects.

The taxes you refered to in the other thread were sales taxes collected by the Native company for the Govt. No company gets to keep the taxes on goods and services they provide. It doesn't matter if the company is run by a Native or Ikkbar straight off the boat from Saudi Arabia. The company is a collector and nothing more.

Time to get off the propaganda pipe my friend. You are getting more holes in your brain than a crystal meth addict.

I find it funny how everytime you are shown to be wrong you scream racism. FYI it makes you look even more foolish. Truth is I want equality for all Canadians. You are the one who seems to feel one race of people should be treated with privilege. So who is really the racist??

Maybe a club will get it through you Neanderthal head.

ALL taxes are collected by companies, including the ones you work for, the ones you buy from and the ones you get your vacuum fixed at collect taxes on behalf of the government and add that to the total price we pay for goods and services. It doesn't matter whether it is shown or not, it is part of the total price we pay. Taxes don't belong to any of us and are used to redistribute the wealth while the government takes their costs for running the scheme. As have provinces those who put more into the tax system than others get all their needs met through the tax system, equally. That's what transfer payments are for. And since Six Nations puts more tax into the system than they receive back they should at least have their needs met, like clean safe water, like full funding of social, education and health services, like roads and infrastructure etc. BUT being underfunded by 10% of the mainstream it is evident that the federal government is deliberately imposing poverty on Six Nations.

I pegged you as a racist along time ago. I can't be a racist unless I hated myself, Dopey. BTW How's Snow White?

Jerry J. Fortin · May 8, 2008

CR you are a fool, there is simply no doubt in my mind. If we were to take a poll of members here I am sure that a majority would peg you as a racist troll.

charter.rights · May 8, 2008

CR you are a fool, there is simply no doubt in my mind. If we were to take a poll of members here I am sure that a majority would peg you as a racist troll.

Coming from a racist troll like you, should I consider that a compliment?

M.Dancer · May 8, 2008

Maybe a club will get it through you Neanderthal head.

tsk tsk tsk...

AngusThermopyle · May 8, 2008

I can't be a racist unless I hated myself, Dopey. BTW How's Snow White?

Right there you loudly and proudly proclaim for all to hear that you dont have the foggiest notion of what racism actually is and how it manifests itself.

it is evident that the federal government is deliberately imposing poverty on Six Nations.

Pure unfounded speculation without a single shred of proof, as usual. Just more of your cherished SOP.

Edited May 8, 2008 by AngusThermopyle

charter.rights · May 8, 2008

Right there you loudly and proudly proclaim for all to hear that you dont have the foggiest notion of what racism actually is and how it manifests itself.
Pure unfounded speculation without a single shred of proof, as usual. Just more of your cherished SOP.

Underfunding essential services meets the UN definition of genocide. It is design to keep natives impoverished.

M.Dancer · May 8, 2008

Underfunding essential services meets the UN definition of genocide. It is design to keep natives impoverished.

Yeah, that's the plan..keep them impoverished so they can continue to suck on the public tit...better stop funding their education too or one day some might become entrepreneurs and professionals and not need welfare...because we want them on welfare, right?

charter.rights · May 8, 2008

Yeah, that's the plan..keep them impoverished so they can continue to suck on the public tit...better stop funding their education too or one day some might become entrepreneurs and professionals and not need welfare...because we want them on welfare, right?

If you could get something for less than 10% of the actual cost would you turn it down?

The government is quite aware that as natives gain professional titles, education and understanding that what they have been told all these years is a lie, there is more resistance to the status quo. Paying 10% and being able to steal land is more attractive for the government than having to support a small minority of native people on reserve at 10% of the going rate.

I realize that you don't understand how our government could do such thing but maybe you should talk to natives as I have done instead of playing make-believe with people's lives. Unless you change your perceptions, you will remain part of the bigger problem with your paternalistic attitudes.

You obviously don't want natives to have equality with you and would prefer the status quo...? Otherwise equality cannot be realized without first realizing equity as the basis of all equality.

M.Dancer · May 8, 2008

You obviously don't want natives to have equality with you and would prefer the status quo...? Otherwise equality cannot be realized without first realizing equity as the basis of all equality.

great. lets end the welfare, lets end the education grants and let natives tax themselves.

You realize that self sufficiancy is the basis for all autonomy?

charter.rights · May 8, 2008

great. lets end the welfare, lets end the education grants and let natives tax themselves.
You realize that self sufficiancy is the basis for all autonomy?

Absolutely. So when the Government of Canada pays Six Nations the $1 trillion in their trust in full, and stops imposing a $120 million excise on Grand River Enterprises, leaves the tobacco trade alone and stops stealing cargo and vehicles, then you will see just how self-sufficient (and powerful) Six Nations will become. Once other First Nations recognize the power in all of that I'm sure they'll have no trouble following alone....although some First Nations do consider themselves Canadian....so that is a bit of a wrinkle.

You do realize that self-sufficiency is the basis for all autonomy, right?

Perhaps Canada can then get off the use of First Nations land, stop from stealing resources our Courts say we have no right to, and start looking for oil and uranium (that kill ducks) in Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal. That would certainly be a first step in getting us off of theft as a basis for a country, now wouldn't it.....It might even comply with our laws, rather than ignoring the law because our money is more important than human rights.