Deaths of Aboriginal Children

[AngusThermopyle]

I really like this part, its good.

leaves the tobacco trade alone and stops stealing cargo and vehicles,

So in your opinion enforcing the laws against smuggling is actually "stealing"?

Must be some more of that reality you like to imagine I guess.

[charter.rights]

I really like this part, its good.

So in your opinion enforcing the laws against smuggling is actually "stealing"?

Must be some more of that reality you like to imagine I guess.

There is no "smuggling" going on. Tobacco trade between First Nations is a right protected by the Charter. The production of cigarettes for sale is not illegal either, nor is the sale of those products without taking tax. Many First Nations have laws that prohibit First Nation members from paying tax or charging tax when dealing with the public on their territories.

The idea of "smuggling" is a myth perpetrated by the federal government and their gestapo the RCMP, because they have lost tax revenue to local ma and pop variety stores on reserve. Instead of stopping Canadians who shop there at the border and demanding those who purchase pay the taxes, they prefer to vilify First Nations people and spread lies about their operations.

What is interesting is that the RCMP have stopped a number of vehicles and confiscated their shipments. Yet after stealing their goods, they quickly drop the charges. There has not been a conviction of a First Nation person for "smuggling" tobacco since it would never hold up in court. Yet they submit all kinds of myths and propaganda about native cigarettes being illegal, or harmful or that gangs are behind the production. Obviously you have been taken in hook line and sinker.

[AngusThermopyle]

There is no "smuggling" going on. Tobacco trade between First Nations is a right protected by the Charter. The production of cigarettes for sale is not illegal either, nor is the sale of those products without taking tax. Many First Nations have laws that prohibit First Nation members from paying tax or charging tax when dealing with the public on their territories.

The idea of "smuggling" is a myth perpetrated by the federal government and their gestapo the RCMP, because they have lost tax revenue to local ma and pop variety stores on reserve. Instead of stopping Canadians who shop there at the border and demanding those who purchase pay the taxes, they prefer to vilify First Nations people and spread lies about their operations.

What is interesting is that the RCMP have stopped a number of vehicles and confiscated their shipments. Yet after stealing their goods, they quickly drop the charges. There has not been a conviction of a First Nation person for "smuggling" tobacco since it would never hold up in court. Yet they submit all kinds of myths and propaganda about native cigarettes being illegal, or harmful or that gangs are behind the production. Obviously you have been taken in hook line and sinker.

Obviously this is just about the biggest crock of shit I've ever heard. Its amazing how you contort and twist the truth to suit your agenda. It is smuggling, there are many many recorded and proven cases of it and you are now at the point where what you say is a totall fabrication. Do you honestly believe anyone here is stupid enough to believe your opinion and "truth" based on your variable reality.

One quick example

That was just one of many links that I grabbed quickly. You want to continue your fabrications and specious justifications and make me post link after link? Or will you just do the honest thing and admit that you made it up based on wishfull thinking?

Edited May 8, 2008 by AngusThermopyle

[charter.rights]

Obviously this is just about the biggest crock of shit I've ever heard. Its amazing how you contort and twist the truth to suit your agenda. It is smuggling, there are many many recorded and proven cases of it and you are now at the point where what you say is a totall fabrication. Do you honestly believe anyone here is stupid enough to believe your opinion and "truth" based on your variable reality.

One quick example

That was just one of many links that I grabbed quickly. You want to continue your fabrications and specious justifications and make me post link after link? Or will you just do the honest thing and admit that you made it up based on wishfull thinking?

That was a waste of time. None of the legislation applies to First Nations, whose aboriginal right to manufacture and trade in tobacco is protected under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. And apart from the RCMP piracy that takes place along major highways it is all a myth and a charade used to try to bully natives into complying. CRA tries the same tactics but never succeeds in gaining convictions because they eventually drop the charges too. But alas, this has been going on for 20 years and still...no native convictions...You don't suppose that the government knows that aboriginal right trumps the law..you know that law that is inconsistent with the Charter is struck....and that is why all the charges get dropped. In 20 years I say....no native convictions. Why would YOU think that is......?

And yet....There are more tobacco sales today than 20 years ago and $millions each month in revenues for First Nations. That's because it isn't illegal and natives have no obligation to collect excise taxes, or duty on products they sell and exchange with other First Nations. That would also be known as a "colour of right" under the law.

I would suggest you get real. This tough guy routine is getting tiresome and you my friend are least of all on the higher moral ground. But being a pretender, I can see the resemblance to the RCMP tactics and understand why you think that bully and not complying with the law is the way to go.... I mean if an native has his day in court and is found not guilty, how will it make all the government thugs really look like?

Edited May 9, 2008 by charter.rights

[Drea]

... products they sell and exchange with other First Nations.

I was approached just the other day to purchase cigs from natives. I declined. But the offer was there for me to buy them. Is this legal?

[charter.rights]

I was approached just the other day to purchase cigs from natives. I declined. But the offer was there for me to buy them. Is this legal?

Perfectly legal if you were on a reserve, or in a designated smoke shop. Remember, First Nations are not required to collect taxes from anyone when selling on a reserve.

[AngusThermopyle]

Perfectly legal if you were on a reserve, or in a designated smoke shop. Remember, First Nations are not required to collect taxes from anyone when selling on a reserve.

Wrong again. Non Natives are not allowed to by cigarettes from natives. Yes, there have been many convictions for smuggling. Instead of making shit up why don't you post proof that there have been no convictions?

Oh, thats right, because you cant. Who do you think you're fooling with your rather obtuse circular rationalizations?

Thanks though, once again you have confirmed what everyone knows about the dishonest nature of your posts.

So very predictable.

(Edited to add.)

This is one reason why we can't just go to the reserve here and buy cigarrettes, if they sold to us and were caught they would be guilty of selling duty free products without license to do so. Being a smoker this subject is near and dear to my heart, I've checked it out and I will admit have bought the cigarrettes before. Just because I could buy them does not make it legal to do so however.

Heres another link for you, once again it contradicts what you say and confirms the illegality of this practise.

No, make something up and I'll once more have to waste my time with another link to further underscore the dishionest nature of your posts.

Of particular interest is the section on smuggling and taxes as relates to Canada.

Edited May 9, 2008 by AngusThermopyle

[Melanie_]

What does any of this have to do with the deaths of children? Charter Rights, you keep trying to deflect the topic of this thread into other issues, but it remains that the thread was originally about children dying, and how we as a society can prevent it. Lets try to stay on task, rather than getting diverted down other avenues.... start a new thread if you must, but I for one would like to refocus this thread on the topic at hand.

In case it hasn't been clear, my perspective is that children need to be protected, regardless of their race. If there is a White child in danger and an Aboriginal family available to foster him/her, let that child go to that family. If the child is Black and there is a Filipino family available, let the child go there. If the child is Aboriginal and there is an Oriental family available, let the child go there. Race and culture are secondary to the child's safety and security.

[AngusThermopyle]

Race and culture are secondary to the child's safety and security.

Excellent point, one that no rational sane person would dispute.

[charter.rights]

Wrong again. Non Natives are not allowed to by cigarettes from natives. Yes, there have been many convictions for smuggling. Instead of making shit up why don't you post proof that there have been no convictions?

Oh, thats right, because you cant. Who do you think you're fooling with your rather obtuse circular rationalizations?

Thanks though, once again you have confirmed what everyone knows about the dishonest nature of your posts.

So very predictable.

(Edited to add.)

This is one reason why we can't just go to the reserve here and buy cigarrettes, if they sold to us and were caught they would be guilty of selling duty free products without license to do so. Being a smoker this subject is near and dear to my heart, I've checked it out and I will admit have bought the cigarrettes before. Just because I could buy them does not make it legal to do so however.

Heres another link for you, once again it contradicts what you say and confirms the illegality of this practise.

No, make something up and I'll once more have to waste my time with another link to further underscore the dishionest nature of your posts.

Of particular interest is the section on smuggling and taxes as relates to Canada.

Wrong again Sgt. Bucko....

The RCMP and the CRA have said that it is perfectly legal for non-natives to purchase cigarettes on reserve if it is for their personal use. They essentially take the position that one carton or bag constitutes"personal use".

BTW you can cite all the legislation you want. It still doesn't diminish the fact that natives have a Charter right to sell and trade in tobacco....and I think if it ever did get to court....if the federal government ever followed through with taking natives to court, the Supreme Court would rule that that means earning a reasonable income from it as well. It is like the fishery or timber harvesting rights. As long as it is not for corporate profits, selling small amounts is reasonable and justified as their aboriginal right.

Edited May 9, 2008 by charter.rights

[charter.rights]

What does any of this have to do with the deaths of children? Charter Rights, you keep trying to deflect the topic of this thread into other issues, but it remains that the thread was originally about children dying, and how we as a society can prevent it. Lets try to stay on task, rather than getting diverted down other avenues.... start a new thread if you must, but I for one would like to refocus this thread on the topic at hand.

In case it hasn't been clear, my perspective is that children need to be protected, regardless of their race. If there is a White child in danger and an Aboriginal family available to foster him/her, let that child go to that family. If the child is Black and there is a Filipino family available, let the child go there. If the child is Aboriginal and there is an Oriental family available, let the child go there. Race and culture are secondary to the child's safety and security.

No Melanie. I'm just following the rhetoric that some try to put out to justify our paternalistic treatment of aboriginal children. They can't stand the truth so they attempt to change the subject in hopes of winning one.....legally they are in dead water.

[Who's Doing What?]

Maybe a club will get it through you Neanderthal head.

ALL taxes are collected by companies, including the ones you work for, the ones you buy from and the ones you get your vacuum fixed at collect taxes on behalf of the government and add that to the total price we pay for goods and services. It doesn't matter whether it is shown or not, it is part of the total price we pay. Taxes don't belong to any of us and are used to redistribute the wealth while the government takes their costs for running the scheme. As have provinces those who put more into the tax system than others get all their needs met through the tax system, equally. That's what transfer payments are for. And since Six Nations puts more tax into the system than they receive back they should at least have their needs met, like clean safe water, like full funding of social, education and health services, like roads and infrastructure etc. BUT being underfunded by 10% of the mainstream it is evident that the federal government is deliberately imposing poverty on Six Nations.

I pegged you as a racist along time ago. I can't be a racist unless I hated myself, Dopey. BTW How's Snow White?

LMFAO

Six Nations should be thankful they recieve ANY taxes back. Just because they collect it does not mean it goes back to them to get distributed amongst the people. Are you really so dense? If you could prove that all of the taxes collected came from Natives and only Natives I might agree with you about them not getting it all back, but since Natives don't pay taxes we can only conclude that those taxes collected came from Non-natives who do pay taxes. Therefore since the taxes were paid by non-natives why should the money go back to Natives? If the money was collect from non-natives than it would stand to reason that it is their communites who should receive the transfer payments and not the reserves.

As for clean water and other infrastructure I suggest you look at the people who are supposed to be taking care of that kind of thing. Like say the Band Council. You want to talk underfunded? Find me a municipality that isn't underfunded. Everyone is underfunded. That is perhaps the one area where reserves and the rest of Canadian municipalities are equal. But wait, Municipalities, collect land taxes to make up for the underfunding. Hmmm.... The deeper we get into this the more it looks like the natives have f*cked it up for themselves with their isolationist ways. Natives living off reserves that I know have clean water and plowed streets. I wonder why? Oh right, they joined society instead of hating it from behind the boundaries of the reserves.

Buddy you are about the biggest racist here, proclaiming that because of race, one group of people is more deserving than another. That is the essence of racism.

Wanting equality for all, regardless of race, is the opposite of racism. Maybe someday you will be able to recognize this, but I won't ever bet on it.

Edited May 9, 2008 by Who's Doing What?

[August1991]

And since Six Nations puts more tax into the system than they receive back they should at least have their needs met, like clean safe water, like full funding of social, education and health services, like roads and infrastructure etc. BUT being underfunded by 10% of the mainstream it is evident that the federal government is deliberately imposing poverty on Six Nations.

CR, you have absolutely no evidence to support that claim.

But look at this:

For instance, Ms. Fraser found that Indian and Northern Affairs Canada is spending about $450-million a year to fund on-reserve foster home programs for 8,000 First Nations children in the department's care. This works out to the unconscionable sum of more than $56,000 per child, per year. So it should surprise no one that Ms. Fraser found little or no accountability for how the money is spent. There is no way of telling whether this federal program meets the care standards in effect in each province. And the funding formula is so outdated that it allocates federal subsidies without regard for reserve population, the number of children in Ottawa's care or the cost of services being provided.

And perhaps most importantly, it is also not possible to tell whether federal welfare for aboriginal children has helped a single child.

NP

CR, above you stated that reserve Indians on Six Nations only receive about $1600 per capita from the federal government for various social needs. Yet, the budget of Indian and Northern Affairs is about $10,000 per Indian. Even tripling your wildly innacurate number, there's still a whole lot of cash going missing.

Something has to change in this monumental mess and throwing more money at Indians is not the solution. I started this thread because a good place to start would be aboriginal children. This is a travesty on a horrendous scale. Canadian non-Indian taxpayers hand over $450 million per year to care for 8000 Indian kids - and Indian kids freeze to death in the snow or get shot by random gang wars.

At this point, I'd almost say that we should abolish INA, remove all treaty rights and send every registered Indian an annual cheque for $9000 in perpetuity. (Call it rent for the use of your so-called land.) The result couldn't be worse than what we have now.

[truthwins]

Why didn't the Neo-Cons follow the Kelowna Accord through ? If you blindly allow an entire segment of the poulation to fall through the cracks, it DOES have an effect on the country as a whole.

Why close your eyes to high infant mortality, poverty, crime, shoddy living conditions and poor educational standards ? Why not try to stimulate a boosting of said group through programs, until they come more in line with the rest of the population WRT socio-economic statistical indicators ?

Hopefully, no callous and malicious dismissivity abounds...

[charter.rights]

CR, you have absolutely no evidence to support that claim.

But look at this:NP

CR, above you stated that reserve Indians on Six Nations only receive about $1600 per capita from the federal government for various social needs. Yet, the budget of Indian and Northern Affairs is about $10,000 per Indian. Even tripling your wildly innacurate number, there's still a whole lot of cash going missing.

Something has to change in this monumental mess and throwing more money at Indians is not the solution. I started this thread because a good place to start would be aboriginal children. This is a travesty on a horrendous scale. Canadian non-Indian taxpayers hand over $450 million per year to care for 8000 Indian kids - and Indian kids freeze to death in the snow or get shot by random gang wars.

At this point, I'd almost say that we should abolish INA, remove all treaty rights and send every registered Indian an annual cheque for $9000 in perpetuity. (Call it rent for the use of your so-called land.) The result couldn't be worse than what we have now.

I have proven those figures on a number of occasions. You must have slept through the class.

The $1600 comes from the INAC list of transfers cited before. INAC eats up about $3-4 billion in ministry administration costs. Then deduct from that the private non-native contractors hired to deliver many of the programs, and the cost of band administration that is used to track the money through mounds of paperwork.

What it boils down to is that using Six Nations as an example, one of the largest reserves in Canada, they only receive about $1600 per capita. Social services also funded through those transfers that INAC has cited in their document comes in at 10% of the mainstream while at the same time suffering from about 40% more in social issues. If we want to help children, we must help their parents and their communities by funding social service agencies, such as Children's Aide on reserve, or family services at a rate that will have some effect. Underfunding has only exacerbated the problem and placed a greater burden on neigbouring communities and larges urban centres where they too can't handle the extra load without additional funding.

Since only 43% of natives live on reserve, the remaining 57% are also paying taxes, so it is misleading to suggest that "Canadian non-Indian taxpayers hand over $450 million per year to care for 8000 Indian kids..." Native people contribute their share as well.

As to gangs and child neglect I suggest that you tackle the entire issue of poverty because the same kinds of things are prevalent in our cities and towns as well. The common denominator is poverty and even with urban funding sources it does not eradicate the entire problem. However, providing proper housing, safe drinking water and family support is a great start to recovery.

I would suggest that you worry less about taxes and worry more about the children affected by government induced poverty. Without proper funding a band council cannot turn a sows ear into a silk purse.

They are not to blame. We are for letting our government continue on with assimilation and subjugation of native people and then blaming them fro our choices.

Fact Sheet - The Reality for First Nations in Canada

Edited May 9, 2008 by charter.rights

[Wild Bill]

Why didn't the Neo-Cons follow the Kelowna Accord through ? If you blindly allow an entire segment of the poulation to fall through the cracks, it DOES have an effect on the country as a whole.

Why close your eyes to high infant mortality, poverty, crime, shoddy living conditions and poor educational standards ? Why not try to stimulate a boosting of said group through programs, until they come more in line with the rest of the population WRT socio-economic statistical indicators ?

Hopefully, no callous and malicious dismissivity abounds...

Perhaps it's all those programs that helps to keep them in perpetual poverty! From outside it looks like the entire reserve system is one big mess of do-gooder socialist programs. Great success story, eh? All those years and all that money.

The root of it seems to be that the "system" sucks away initiative and individual responsibility. Without such a community CAN'T prosper! Unless it has a perpetual and ever-increasing welfare cheque. The approach of some in this thread appears to be defining FN as entitled to a cosmically big "repatriations" cheque for alleged historical abuse that it would be centuries before they could spend it all, no matter how wastefully. Of course, they would expect the monthly cheques to keep coming as well.

Yet it seems obvious that even if we implemented such a hyperbole form of "solution" when that first big cheque was finally used up centuries from now the situation on many reserves would likely be EXACTLY the same!

Ask people who have been involved on the "ground" level how well the government money is spent. You'll hear stories of how the government paid for a water treatment plant, that the local band of course insisted they would run themselves. A few years later the plant is falling apart and working poorly or not at all. When the water goes bad no one mentions this. They just blame the government and demand a new one.

There are a host of such stories but they are rarely featured in the media. You have to talk to the people who were actually there. I've met a few in my life and my eyes were opened, often in shock!

Of course, many supporters of the present system would dismiss these stories as merely anecdotal, or racism to put down native peoples. As they stand in front of the crumbling water treatment plant.

These reports struck me as very similar to many foreign aid programs. In Trudeau's time the "poor nation of the month" was Tanzania. Canada gave huge sums of money to projects that seemed downright screwy. We shipped over crates and crates of tractors, that ended up rusting away on the docks because there was no local money or resources to transport and distribute them out from the cities into the hands of farmers. We build a hydro-electric dam and the power never reached the neighbouring city. Tanzania had a very primitive wire distribution network and the transmission towers stopped some miles from the city.

I saw pictures on one documentary of villagers walking a few miles out of town to get fresh water. We paid for a clean water source but nobody looked after enough piping to reach the village!

These goofy approaches only make sense if you understand the initial premises. First off, it's not to help the FN people or poor folks in Africa. That's just the photo-op and the ego-boo. By throwing government money out for "charity" ordinary people (voters!) get to feel all warm and fuzzy, and approving of their politicians. Even better, they don't have to feel any need to do something PERSONALLY! They can bask in the glow of knowing "the government is looking after it!"

If you dig a little deeper, who gets the paid for a native water treatment plant or tractors for Tanzania? Somebody has to build that plant. Somebody has to manufacture those tractors. So some John Deere workers keep their jobs and the executives make some political donations.

These are inevitable consequences of any system that denies individual responsibility. If you know any expatriate Russians you should talk to them about the old Soviet system, where more food was grown on tiny plots "for the farmers own use" than on huge government collectives. Cabbages would be loaded onto unrefrigerated boxcars and then rot before they ever were delivered to the cities.

For all these years we've let these folks treat reserves as their very own socialist experiments. It's sad but not surprising that we have had all this suffering.

Hopefully, my words will not be dismissed as racism simply because I disagree with you...

[Drea]

Wrong again Sgt. Bucko....

The RCMP and the CRA have said that it is perfectly legal for non-natives to purchase cigarettes on reserve if it is for their personal use. They essentially take the position that one carton or bag constitutes"personal use".

I was at a mall in the parking lot having a smoke before I went in.... the mall is not located on a reserve. So the native was illegally trying to sell cigarettes to me.

They are also not allowed to sell salmon off reserve but they do.

When I was a kid, we used to go "dipping" for salmon in the Fraser River. We never took more than we could eat. And yes, it was illegal, but sure was fun (I was the lookout and many times I raced to the river on my Yamaha to save everybody from the DFO) We never once sold the salmon... we ate it -- we did not make a profit from the fish. And isn't that what the natives are supposed to do -- eat the salmon themselves; smoke the cigs themselves? They don't care about "maintaining" their culture -- they care about what everyone else cares about -- making money.

[charter.rights]

I was at a mall in the parking lot having a smoke before I went in.... the mall is not located on a reserve. So the native was illegally trying to sell cigarettes to me.

They are also not allowed to sell salmon off reserve but they do.

When I was a kid, we used to go "dipping" for salmon in the Fraser River. We never took more than we could eat. And yes, it was illegal, but sure was fun (I was the lookout and many times I raced to the river on my Yamaha to save everybody from the DFO) We never once sold the salmon... we ate it -- we did not make a profit from the fish. And isn't that what the natives are supposed to do -- eat the salmon themselves; smoke the cigs themselves? They don't care about "maintaining" their culture -- they care about what everyone else cares about -- making money.

Natives are permitted to sell fish for for profit off reserve. That was decided in a SCoC case where it was determined that earning a moderate income from a resource was consistent with their aboriginal right to hunt and fish and provide for the community.

The sale of tobacco currently is supposed to be limited to on-reserve. We do know there are non-native vendors reselling native brand cartons off the reserve as well. This is clearly illegal. However, since the fishing case allows natives to earn a moderate income from the sale of the fish, it would stand to reason that doing the same with tobacco products would be covered under the same right. While the government claims there is a health issue at stake, the reality is this is all about the loss of revenue the government suffers. Native tobacco, is unadulterated free from the ammonia used to enhance the nicotine and other chemicals and pesticides super dosing the commercial brands. That isn't to make an argument for smoking, but that if one does smoke - a legal activity in Canada - native brands are likely less harmful than commercial brands.

So it is about taxes that puts a whopping $80 per carton on top of the actual cost of about $4.00. Losing that revenue and seeing that natives are profiting and prospering from the tobacco trade is an irritant. It is not illegal, nor is it immoral to profit on something the government normally gouges us over.

[AngusThermopyle]

The sale of tobacco currently is supposed to be limited to on-reserve. We do know there are non-native vendors reselling native brand cartons off the reserve as well. This is clearly illegal. However, since the fishing case allows natives to earn a moderate income from the sale of the fish, it would stand to reason that doing the same with tobacco products would be covered under the same right. While the government claims there is a health issue at stake, the reality is this is all about the loss of revenue the government suffers. Native tobacco, is unadulterated free from the ammonia used to enhance the nicotine and other chemicals and pesticides super dosing the commercial brands. That isn't to make an argument for smoking, but that if one does smoke - a legal activity in Canada - native brands are likely less harmful than commercial brands.

So it is about taxes that puts a whopping $80 per carton on top of the actual cost of about $4.00. Losing that revenue and seeing that natives are profiting and prospering from the tobacco trade is an irritant. It is not illegal, nor is it immoral to profit on something the government normally gouges us over.

You're done, give it up. This entire post merely accents the fact.

A dead give away is when you start using phrases such as "stands to reason". Just because in your opinion this is how it should be does not make it so. Once again you cite examples with not a shred of proof to back them up, SOP.

As for a moderate income. Well the proceeds from illegal tobacco sales are far more than just moderate, admittedly, freedom from tax does give a huge advantage in that area. Perhaps your confussion stems from not being aware of what a restricted substance is and the laws covering distribution and use of such substances. In short additional controls and taxes are applied to restricted substances. They can not just be sold to anyone like a pack of hot dog buns. Licenses and permits must first be issued and the restrictions applicable to the item(s) must be clearly understood.

In short, Natives do clearly brake the law, they clearly smuggle and they clearly make handsome profits from such activities. They are not, as you surmise, pure as the wind driven snow, neither are they some sort of saintly beings who can do no wrong.

They are merely human, just like the rest of us. As such they are as subject to fault and misbehaviour as anyone else on this planet.

Further to that we also know that there are many many Native vendors selling to any one with the money. Thus circumventing the law in an illegal manner. You can try to deny this if you wish but all you'll be doing is discrediting yourself.

[Wild Bill]

In short, Natives do clearly brake the law, they clearly smuggle and they clearly make handsome profits from such activities. They are not, as you surmise, pure as the wind driven snow, neither are they some sort of saintly beings who can do no wrong.

They are merely human, just like the rest of us. As such they are as subject to fault and misbehaviour as anyone else on this planet.

Further to that we also know that there are many many Native vendors selling to any one with the money. Thus circumventing the law in an illegal manner. You can try to deny this if you wish but all you'll be doing is discrediting yourself.

Angus, about a decade or so ago we had the last go-around here in Ontario over illegal smokes. I was an on the road salesman and at least once a week I made sure my route would take me home through part of the Six Nations Reserve. On that stretch of rural highway there must have been over a hundred "smoke shacks". I would pick up a couple of dozen cartons for workmates and family. None for myself as they weren't my vice and I never charged a nickel's profit. I did it as a favour to those I cared about and to satisfy the ghosts of my Bluenoser ancestors, who used to row booze in dories from Yarmouth to Boston. Well, maybe they used real boats.

I always went to the same shack. The operator and myself had a common interest. I could tell from all the Sun-shine Girl clippings taped up on the wall of his shack! Also, on his front lawn was another common interest. He had a beautiful 1957 blue Chevy Bel-air convertible! Cigarettes had been "berry, berry good" to him, to coin a phrase.

His service was excellent! He was a friendly and well-informed fellow who was very interesting to talk to. If he was out of any particular request he would hand me a couple of packs of something he suggested as very similar for FREE and promised he could supply those the following week.

Never got that kind of treatment at any regular store!

Often there would be a lineup. I would wonder how the cops could even pretend to police this situation. There are a multitude of country roads coming into and out of that area, and a couple of rural highways. Even if they blocked them all off (and the natives did nothing about it!) what were they expecting to do? Bust the entire blue-haired bingo playing old lady population of Brantford, Ontario? They alone were a good part of the lineups.

I remember guys with sacks of cigarettes on their backs walking from business to business in the industrial malls of Mississauga, selling openly to the employees inside. It was just like the "coffee truck"!

The story I saw in the papers is what finally got through to Chretien to lower the fed taxes was riding in his limo down a Quebec highway and seeing roadside vendor after roadside vender selling cigarettes off the tailgate of a truck. The magnitude of the problem was so obviously enormous that even he could finally see it.

The situation is very similar today. It's just being done a bit more discretely. The players have learned that if you don't openly embarrass the politicians they won't get off their collective asses. Besides, McGuinty is so terrified of sparking a confrontation with natives that they know they can operate with impunity. Noises are made but nothing is actually done.

Most variety stores in this part of Ontario at least are buying contraband for resale. If they don't they have no hope of competing.

It's an interesting situation and oh, so peculiarly Canadian!

[AngusThermopyle]

Very true Bill. As I said, I've bought them before myself, always with the understanding that I wasn't supposed to. Orillia was the place I'd go to, along the stretch of road that runs by the casino. And yes, the guy who ran the shop I went to was a nice guy, we had something in common, he had a beautifull Bass boat. Over the years we became closer to the point where we'd sometimes go fishing together (beautifull boat).

It was always clear to both of us as to the legal disposition of cigarette sales, but as you said it was lucrative and also gave a break to non Native smokers, I for one am all for it on a personal level. However the law doesn't accommodate personal desires. This is why when I hear ridiculous statements such as Natives don't break the law I have to comment.

Of course a certain fabricator of reality will probably loudly proclaim that my friend was a token. They would probably also loudly proclaim that my girlfriend's beautifull little half native girl is just a token as well. The fact that I adore this little jewel will be swept aside and she'll be proclaimed as some sort of trophy. Such is the blind fanaticism of the zealot. It has been mentioned before that reality is whatever you imagine it to be (its not, sane people realize this). Given this mind set it becomes quite obvious as to how upholding the law could be called stealing.

[capricorn]

The story I saw in the papers is what finally got through to Chretien to lower the fed taxes was riding in his limo down a Quebec highway and seeing roadside vendor after roadside vender selling cigarettes off the tailgate of a truck. The magnitude of the problem was so obviously enormous that even he could finally see it.

Wild Bill I hadn't heard that interesting tidbit. The Ontario government shot itself in the foot when it banned smoking in bingo halls. Before the ban, players would remain in the hall throughout intermission. Since the ban, they all go outside at the break for a cigarette. This is when the vendors of illegal smokes show up and make the rounds selling to the players standing outside. It's a brisk business all done in the open. Before the ban, those sellers would not have been allowed inside the hall to sell their smokes. So the government, through some of their policies actually exacerbate the problem of contraband cigarettes.

[Wild Bill]

Wild Bill I hadn't heard that interesting tidbit. The Ontario government shot itself in the foot when it banned smoking in bingo halls. Before the ban, players would remain in the hall throughout intermission. Since the ban, they all go outside at the break for a cigarette. This is when the vendors of illegal smokes show up and make the rounds selling to the players standing outside. It's a brisk business all done in the open. Before the ban, those sellers would not have been allowed inside the hall to sell their smokes. So the government, through some of their policies actually exacerbate the problem of contraband cigarettes.

Interesting! Not being a bingo player (I'm not THAT old yet!) I never knew. It makes perfect sense, of course.

I've always believed that when the official line and what happens in reality are dramatically different you should check the initial premises. I simply don't believe that politicians raise tobacco taxes and impose lifestyle restrictions to "protect us". They do it to APPEAR to be protecting us! Quite a different thing, if you think about it a while.

Also, it makes a very popular appeal. A wise man once said that "There is nothing so popular as telling your neighbour what to do, except making him pay for your own big idea!" Too many people see anti-smoking as a chance to feed their own ego. They might be very humble in their own life but as a "nico-nazi" they can feel important!

I'm sure I'm not the only one who has worked in an office where there's always someone who harps to management at the slightest infraction by his co-workers. The Smoking War gives these people a perfect opportunity to strut.

In Hamilton it's now illegal to smoke at a bus stop streetcorner, amongst all the diesel fumes and the emissions from two major steel companies. Doesn't make sense, you say? Check your initial premise. The goal is not to protect non-smokers from passive smoke. The goal is to take away yet another place for smokers to light up! Eventually they will have nowhere but the folks leading the charge will claim that they haven't taken away a smoker's choice to smoke!

It's a side of human nature that frankly I find rather ugly. It helps me understand how concepts like racism and anti-semitism can catch on so easily in a community.

Anyhow, politicians just get in front of a parade. They usually are too shallow and/or machiavellian to be bothered by any thought of morality.

It's been said that "Democracy is a system where the 'little guy' may think he knows what he wants but he ends up getting it good and hard!"

[DangerMouse]

I was at a mall in the parking lot having a smoke before I went in.... the mall is not located on a reserve. So the native was illegally trying to sell cigarettes to me.

They are also not allowed to sell salmon off reserve but they do.

When I was a kid, we used to go "dipping" for salmon in the Fraser River. We never took more than we could eat. And yes, it was illegal, but sure was fun (I was the lookout and many times I raced to the river on my Yamaha to save everybody from the DFO) We never once sold the salmon... we ate it -- we did not make a profit from the fish. And isn't that what the natives are supposed to do -- eat the salmon themselves; smoke the cigs themselves? They don't care about "maintaining" their culture -- they care about what everyone else cares about -- making money.

Hey Drea! I want to use your post to give each and everyone of you a lightbulb moment to ponder When the natives buy the cigarettes, that money still ends up back to the Feds. Just like fuel...natives also fall under Federal government jurisdiction. So when you think about it, natives are just middle men in this great big mess created by all you bozos who have always slammed natives over your laws. If they tax the natives that basically means that the government would be taxing themselves (where's the lightbulb icon that I need for all of you fine forum posters?) But all you lightbulbs view it as tax-free status The money goes back to the government anyways. Also wasn't tabocco traditional amongst natives?...and we all know that fishing was...so if Drea claims she does all this! Then congratulations! You are a white assimilated to native culture

[Drea]

If you weren't such a dense goofball you would get it by now.

I also eat Indian food (no, not native american food, food from people from a country far, far away --> India!) so does that make me Indian? Should I dress in a Sari and get a Bindi dot?

The POINT (if you can ever get it) is that we dipped, but we did not profit from it. Our government allows natives to dip for fish (as per tradition) but they are not to sell the fish for a profit. They are to take home and feed to your children. BUT many natives sell the fish and buy booze rather than food for the chldren.

You people don't give a rat's ass about "tradition" or "nature"... tell me, did the natives replant every tree they took for building longhouses, canoes, totems? Hmmm?