Plan to boost use of French in Montreal

[maldon_road]

The province's road surfaces are 3rd world, the health system is maybe the worst in the country, over 150 overpasses need repair and what does the government do? It hires people to see if store owners have an "ouvert" sign as well as an "open" sign on the door.

Plan to boost use of French in Montreal

QUEBEC CITY - Quebec's Culture Minister says she hopes incentives, rather than coercive measures will increase the use of French, especially in Montreal-area businesses.

Christine St-Pierre has announced a $12-million dollar, two-year plan aimed at addressing the fact studies released last month by the provcince's language watchdog, the Office Quebecoise de la Langue Francaise (OQLF) show those who consider French their mother tongue now represent slightly fewer than half of residents on the island of Montreal.

The plan includes hiring 20 additional inspectors for the OQLF who St-Pierre says will "help companies provide their customers with service in French."

A publicity campaign called "I shop in French" will also be launched to encourage customers to demand French service. Businesses will also be encouraged to offer service in French....

BOOSTING FRENCH

[Sean Hayward]

I understand that Quebec's language policies are controversial among English-speaking Canadians, but as an English-speaking Canadian, I personally support them. These policies try to preserve the French language in Quebec and that is a valid goal for the government of Quebec to be pursuing. The government of Quebec has a responsibility to preserve Quebec's culture and this is a part of that.

[oreodontist]

I find it all amusing in the year 2008. The 'state' promoting a language, religion, culture, etc. is similar to the boy with his finger in the dyke. There may be some temporary relief from the onslaught of outside forces but it is futile in the long run. The Internet, etc. has more or less boosted the English language into the stratosphere as a lingua franca around the world.

I grew up in a bilingual household in Pointe-aux-Trembles and everyone who was well educated, etc. speal fluent English, but more importantly, USE English as the principal language of work or the sciences. The sign on the store is irrelevent. Tokenism. I still prefer watching a hockey game in French, some music and so on but, for the most part, since moving to Alberta and travelling around the world, the use of the language is very much a niche.

Ones 'community' has become like minded individuals on the Internet and not necessarily the person next door. The common language of the 14 year-old in Tokyo, Trois Rivieres, Glasgow and Jakarta is English. French, like most languages, has been relegated to a physical locale (Quebec, Belgium, etc.). In 50 years most higher education in the world will be in a few languages with mobility being second nature among students. Classes will be an international mix needing a mass language....English, Mandarin Chinese and Spanish will dominate. Educated Germans, Indians, etc, will study in English. Almost all science will be conducted in English (as it largely is now).

[maldon_road]

I find it all amusing in the year 2008. The 'state' promoting a language, religion, culture, etc. is similar to the boy with his finger in the dyke.

Allophones will obviously opt for English. They know which language is of more value to them. Mme St-Pierre herself acknowledges that Quebec's 6 million francophones are surrounded by 350 million English speakers.

Edited March 21, 2008 by maldon_road

[Sean Hayward]

Allophones will obviously opt for English. They know which language is of more value to them. Mme St-Pierre herself acknowledges that Quebec's 6 million francophones are surrounded by 350 million English speakers.

As for you assertion that allophones "obviously opt for English", I believe there is census data to the contrary. Actually, I think that the percentage of the population of Quebec speaking French went up slightly between the 2001 Census and the 2006 Census.

You say that the Quebec Culture Minister acknowledges that Quebec's French-speaking society is surrounded by a much larger English-speaking society as if you think that is a rejection of Quebec's language policies. You miss the point entirely. The purpose of Quebec's language policies is to protect the use of French within Quebec from the influence of English from outside of Quebec. Therefore the fact that there are so many English-speakers surrounding Quebec provides more reason for the language policies.

[maldon_road]

As for you assertion that allophones "obviously opt for English", I believe there is census data to the contrary. Actually, I think that the percentage of the population of Quebec speaking French went up slightly between the 2001 Census and the 2006 Census.

You say that the Quebec Culture Minister acknowledges that Quebec's French-speaking society is surrounded by a much larger English-speaking society as if you think that is a rejection of Quebec's language policies. You miss the point entirely. The purpose of Quebec's language policies is to protect the use of French within Quebec from the influence of English from outside of Quebec. Therefore the fact that there are so many English-speakers surrounding Quebec provides more reason for the language policies.

Reports by Statistics Canada and the language office indicate that fewer than half of Montrealers claim French as their mother tongue, and while newcomers are increasingly gravitating to the French majority, most are still drawn to the English community.

LANGUAGE

This will continue. French is no longer relevant as an international language and immigrants to Canada know this. The ones with ambition will select English as the language to learn. Efforts to prevent this by Quebec will at best have modest success.

[Sean Hayward]

OK but you have to realize that the situation in Montreal is different from the situation in the province as a whole. The percentage of the Quebec population speaking French was 80.9 in 1996 and 81.2 in 2001, and it is likely that the level of French use in Quebec is remaining stable. Other factors to consider are that a large proportion of immigrants to Quebec come from French-speaking countries and so they will obviously just continue to use French rather than learning English, and that the majority of immigrants going into Quebec are selected by the government of Quebec, which uses knowledge of French as a primary requirement.

[maldon_road]

OK but you have to realize that the situation in Montreal is different from the situation in the province as a whole. The percentage of the Quebec population speaking French was 80.9 in 1996 and 81.2 in 2001, and it is likely that the level of French use in Quebec is remaining stable. Other factors to consider are that a large proportion of immigrants to Quebec come from French-speaking countries and so they will obviously just continue to use French rather than learning English, and that the majority of immigrants going into Quebec are selected by the government of Quebec, which uses knowledge of French as a primary requirement.

I have no problem with any of that. The most important thing is that immigrants continue to choose which language stream they prefer. Even though immigrants are required to send their kids to French-language schools many (perhaps most) of them choose to learn English too.

[seabee]

English is a mandatory subject in the entire french-speaking school system. All their students, whether immigrants or not learn french there, willy nilly.

[August1991]

Ones 'community' has become like minded individuals on the Internet and not necessarily the person next door. The common language of the 14 year-old in Tokyo, Trois Rivieres, Glasgow and Jakarta is English. French, like most languages, has been relegated to a physical locale (Quebec, Belgium, etc.). In 50 years most higher education in the world will be in a few languages with mobility being second nature among students. Classes will be an international mix needing a mass language....English, Mandarin Chinese and Spanish will dominate. Educated Germans, Indians, etc, will study in English. Almost all science will be conducted in English (as it largely is now).

I don't know if I entirely agree.

In Sweden, Finland and Holland - to pick three examples that I know about - many people even after several generations speak English as a second language but would never dream of giving up their maternal language. It's an expression of who they are. Language is more than just a way to communicate. It's a part of how one sees the world.

In some ways, the Internet makes it easier to work in one's own language because the Internet makes it easier to communicate around the world.

Even if you go far into the future - say, several centuries to the year 2600 - people will likely still speak different languages in different ways with different accents and dialects. Individuals have their own way of imposing their individuality in any social environment. We are not designed to fit a mould or to be homogenous. We like freedom. As soon as a single language were adopted, assuming that ever happened, some kids would start their own slang terms that no one else would understand. And off we'd go.

----

As to the issue of this thread, it's just Quebec politics. There have been several studies and reports based in part on the 2006 Census. Péquistes have tried to use this data to imply that French is slipping into a second place in Montreal. In their view, defence of the French language justifies Quebec sovereignty. At the same time, the ADQ has been arguing that Quebec accepts too many immigrants and can't properly assimilate them. In response, Charest's Liberal Party has had to offer some response.

This announcement ($12 million is not very much) was designed to get a headline and show that the government was "doing something".

Edited March 22, 2008 by August1991

[maldon_road]

I don't know if I entirely agree.

In Sweden, Finland and Holland - to pick three examples that I know about - many people even after several generations speak English as a second language but would never dream of giving up their maternal language. It's an expression of who they are. Language is more than just a way to communicate. It's a part of how one sees the world.

In some ways, the Internet makes it easier to work in one's own language because the Internet makes it easier to communicate around the world.

Even if you go far into the future - say, several centuries to the year 2600 - people will likely still speak different languages in different ways with different accents and dialects. Individuals have their own way of imposing their individuality in any social environment. We are not designed to fit a mould or to be homogenous. We like freedom. As soon as a single language were adopted, assuming that ever happened, some kids would start their own slang terms that no one else would understand. And off we'd go.

----

As to the issue of this thread, it's just Quebec politics. There have been several studies and reports based in part on the 2006 Census. Péquistes have tried to use this data to imply that French is slipping into a second place in Montreal. In their view, defence of the French language justifies Quebec sovereignty. At the same time, the ADQ has been arguing that Quebec accepts too many immigrants and can't properly assimilate them. In response, Charest's Liberal Party has had to offer some response.

This announcement ($12 million is not very much) was designed to get a headline and show that the government was "doing something".

Just as the ambitious francophones learn English, as well of course, as retaining French. And I don't think any serious commentator would suggest that they "give up" French.

Isn't everything politics? Charest has tried to be as non-intrusive as possible. "Promotion" of French rather than trying to expand Bill 101 to smaller employers. Even the $12 mil was taken from the "culture" budget.

[oreodontist]

There is another phenomenon happening that we in Alberta see but doesn't get much press. In the last two or three years the number of young Francophones moving to this province has skyrocketed. There's always been a lot of in migration from Quebec but it was nearly all Anglophones. Now many Francophones are loking for careers elsewhere.Out of 18 employees we now have one from the Gaspe and one from Sherbrooke. Last summer we had requests from students in Quebec wanting to come out West for seasonal work. What used to be a trickle of Francophones leaving the province isn't a flood by any means but is now much more of a reality for those starting ot in life. The demagraphics in Quebec may change dramatically in the next couple decades.

[maldon_road]

There is another phenomenon happening that we in Alberta see but doesn't get much press. In the last two or three years the number of young Francophones moving to this province has skyrocketed. There's always been a lot of in migration from Quebec but it was nearly all Anglophones. Now many Francophones are loking for careers elsewhere.Out of 18 employees we now have one from the Gaspe and one from Sherbrooke. Last summer we had requests from students in Quebec wanting to come out West for seasonal work. What used to be a trickle of Francophones leaving the province isn't a flood by any means but is now much more of a reality for those starting ot in life. The demagraphics in Quebec may change dramatically in the next couple decades.

That phenomenon has gotten some commentary in the MSM. I'm not sure how much of a "Quebec" issue it is as much as people gravitating to where the roads are paved with goal. I suspect there has been an influx into Alberta from other provinces too.

[Sean Hayward]

It's not a question of whether people in Quebec learn English too. I personally think that's a necessity for interprovincial and international business. The issue is the presevation of French as the "common language" of Quebec, the language used by people in daily activities. As someone else said, it is an expression of their identity as Quebecois.

[oreodontist]

It's not a question of whether people in Quebec learn English too. I personally think that's a necessity for interprovincial and international business. The issue is the presevation of French as the "common language" of Quebec, the language used by people in daily activities. As someone else said, it is an expression of their identity as Quebecois.

'Identity' based on geography will decline in the western world whether it' Quebec, England, California or 'wherever'. Quebec, in North america, is one of the few areas that a sizeable amount of the population, Francophones, has retained mobility largely within it's own borders. That is changing and the pace of that change will accelerate in the next couple generations. The Francophone 25 year old will look to Alberta, New York and so on as a place to move to. When that person moves they become assimilated into the 'real' new culture of as you put it 'daily living'. Their spouse and children are not Quebecois as much as possibly speaking French language for another generation. Even culture in Quebec will be Walmart, Mcdonalds, Microsoft with a veneeer of French language, but not culture, on top. A big part of 'daily living' is on line and not geographic based. In fact the wired-in part of 'daily living' will be much more significant than physical interaction with a sign of a store that has French print larger than English.

[maldon_road]

The issue is the presevation of French as the "common language" of Quebec, the language used by people in daily activities.

I don't see that changing; however, expecting immigrants to assimilate is questionable. They will want to learn English over French to permit more mobility. If Quebec is facing any danger signs it's a low birth rate. And only francophones can do anything about that.

[Leafless]

If Quebec is facing any danger signs it's a low birth rate. And only francophones can do anything about that.

Its thumbs down to that to relating to marriage and religion.

Maybe reruns of the Plouffe family will encourage a return to marital stability and a return of the good old days in Quebec when families of 6-8 or more were fairly common.

[maldon_road]

Its thumbs down to that to relating to marriage and religion.

Maybe reruns of the Plouffe family will encourage a return to marital stability and a return of the good old days in Quebec when families of 6-8 or more were fairly common.

Half the couples in Quebec now don't bother to get married. No idea why. Maybe they don't plan to stay together or perhaps marriage has bad connotations.

The answer is not Dumont's idiotic attempt to bribe people into having kids. What woman is going to have three kids just to get 5000 bucks?

[seabee]

Half the couples in Quebec now don't bother to get married. No idea why. Maybe they don't plan to stay together or perhaps marriage has bad connotations.

In Québec, religion has gone out the window some 40 years ago. Since then, at least half the churches have either been destroyed or sold for other uses such as cultural centers, condos, libraries, etc. Today a good proportion of the remaining churches are nearly abandonned. In some parishes, a priest comes only once or twice a month. The average age of priests, brothers and nuns is now well over 70.

Marriage is seen as an obsolete religious sacrament, which is meaningless ot the yourger generations.

Many married couples have divorced, and many non-married couples stay together for decades.

[maldon_road]

In Québec, religion has gone out the window some 40 years ago. Since then, at least half the churches have either been destroyed or sold for other uses such as cultural centers, condos, libraries, etc. Today a good proportion of the remaining churches are nearly abandonned. In some parishes, a priest comes only once or twice a month. The average age of priests, brothers and nuns is now well over 70.

Marriage is seen as an obsolete religious sacrament, which is meaningless ot the yourger generations.

Many married couples have divorced, and many non-married couples stay together for decades.

Nothing to prevent them from having a civil marriage but it seems to be the concept of marriage itself, not just the religious variety, that seems to be turning people off.

[oreodontist]

In Québec, religion has gone out the window some 40 years ago. Since then, at least half the churches have either been destroyed or sold for other uses such as cultural centers, condos, libraries, etc. Today a good proportion of the remaining churches are nearly abandonned. In some parishes, a priest comes only once or twice a month. The average age of priests, brothers and nuns is now well over 70.

Marriage is seen as an obsolete religious sacrament, which is meaningless ot the yourger generations.

Many married couples have divorced, and many non-married couples stay together for decades.

Excuse the pun but thank heavens to that! My siblings and I were subjected to the terror tactics of the Catholic Church in Quebec. Catholicism and Christianity is increaisngly flushed down the toilet in Quebec (applause).

Language without an underlying distinct culture is a veneer that will slip away. The oppresive influence of the Catholic Chruch was the anchor that the French language survived in. In the 1970's that anchor changed from religion to nationalism. With a changing sense of community and 'real' daily culture, nationalism will decline in Quebec and elsewhere. There will always be flag wavers in Quebec just as there will also always be 'Catholics'... and both of those are on he down slide. It's silly to think a language will survive by having 'more babies'. Those babies will grown up wired ito the English-language world and most likely will go to college outside of Quebec and move to California or Portugal in the year 2030. Incentives for women to have babies is actually funding future labour markets wherever the opportunities will be.

[Sean Hayward]

You leave a thread alone for a couple days and it can get so off topic.

[Borg]

You leave a thread alone for a couple days and it can get so off topic.

Like any conversation, the topic tends to wander - so it goes on any board.

Borg