Tories Contradict Themselves on Death Penalty

[Pliny]

Parties do tend to be partisan. That is why they are parties.

I can't recall the Liberal MP that supported the death penalty in the free vote. I am fairly certain it was an MP from Ontario.

The death penalty was so controversial an issue that both Trudeau and Mulroney had free votes on the issue. There was a fear that if the vote was whipped for any party (given the support the death penalty had at the time) that there would be a backlash against that party. Each MP went to great lengths to explain why the supported it and why they didn't.

If you read Hansard which is available online, you can see the very personal reasons given by MPs. The three leader gave very impassioned speeches. Read Mulroney's in particular.

I don't subscribe to the present day partisan theory that the 1987 vote was whipped or that pressure was put on any MP by the party. Anyone who was paying attention to the debates back then knows that the issue was so completely controversial that each MP had to stand up and make their view known. There was no hiding behind party discipline. If someone voted against what the majority of their constituents, they had to give a legitimate reason other than the party made me do it.

His name starts with an "N", I think.

But why was the vote so close? Somebody was voting the party line...shall we say it was the Conservatives?

So everyone got up and ruffled their feathers, I don't think that changed anything. Who brought the bill forward and for what reason did it get so much attention at the time?

I am not an advocate of the death penalty. I don't believe anyone or the State should have the right to take another person's life. The privilege is too open to abuse.

[jdobbin]

There is no cite to provide. In spite of the fact that more criminals were being charged, the Liberals never built one single prison to accommodate the growing prison population. Now we have nowhere to house the increasing number of convicted criminals.

However, the Liberals did close the women's prison in Kingston in 2000.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/story/2007...bel-mcneil.html

And they moved women to medium security prisons.

You know if you don't have any stats on this, it is really hard to believe a word you say.

[eyeball]

For starters if a Canadian makes the choice to break the law while in a foreign country, they should not look to the Canadian government and the taxpayers of this country to bail them out of whatever they have gotten themselves into. As for the death penalty, I don't agree with it personally, BUT I feel that when Canada did away with the death penalty it should have been replaced with a sentence of natural life in prison. Anyone who commits this type of crime, the only way they should get out of prison, is in a prone position, inside a pine box.

With the appointment of bleeding-hearts to the judiciary, our justice system has become nothing but a joke. Just this week I heard on the radio where a pedophile with multiple convictions, and who has refused treatment while in prison, was denied parole because of the refusals, and now his time is up and they have to set him free even though the experts are predicting that it is a 100% certainty that he will re-offend. Something is terribly wrong when we have a justice system that is supposed to protect the public, and we allow someone to go free that we know will harm more children.

We also have the situation whereby Canadians who are convicted of crimes in other countries, and the first thing they do is apply to serve their sentence in a Canadian prison, because they know that our justice system is far too lenient and will oftentimes allow them back on our streets long before their sentence is complete. We need to change our justice system, build more prisons, and keep dangerous offenders, including pedophiles, behind bars until they die.

I can live with keeping truly dangerous offenders in a corrections facility until they are no longer dangerous but when they're obviously to old and infirm to be a threat to anybody, what's the point? I see no good reason for building more jails, we should make more space by reducing crime starting with the legalization of drugs. Prohibition is by far the biggest generator of crime in this country violent and otherwise. Pedophilia is clearly in a class of its own and its more appropriate to think of it as a disease. Normally we treat sick people, we don't punish them, anymore that is. If this means institutionalizing some for their natural life then so be it.

The thing that alarms and sickens me the most are the vindictive anti-bleeding hearts who could care less how brutal our justice system is. The type of people, and sadly there's lots of them, who cheer at the thought of prisoners raping and beating other more reviled prisoners to death. These are not the kind of people we want being appointed to our judicary. I'm not even comfortable letting these sorts of people vote and the thought that one or two might get elected to power horrifys me. I see no difference whatsoever between the state wrongfully executing a convict or putting a convict into a situation where they can be preyed upon or turned into a victim of crime themselves. Not in my name.

If there is anything we need more prison space for it's to relieve the over-crowded conditions that exist now in Canada's prisons and repealing prohibition would go a long way towards accomplishing this. Prisoners also need to be better protected from violence and physical and sexual abuse so a better environment where they have a chance to be rehabilitated can exist.

[capricorn]

And they moved women to medium security prisons.

Yeah. Nice, new cushy pads.

You know if you don't have any stats on this, it is really hard to believe a word you say.

No need to get personal.

[jdobbin]

Yeah. Nice, new cushy pads.

From mimumum to medium security prisons? That should warm most right wing hearts.

No need to get personal.

You routinely ask me for citations. When you asked for a citation that the Tories had promised to cap spending, I showed you the Tory election platform on the Tory website.

I am asking for evidence for what you said. If it is just your opinion then I apologize.

[capricorn]

I am asking for evidence for what you said. If it is just your opinion then I apologize.

Thanks. Looking back at my post where I said "scaling back", it was not a precise way of explaining my thoughts. I'll clarify.

Given that:

overpopulation in Canadian federal prisons has been documented since the mid-nineties,

no new prisons have been built and

the rate of incarceration has increased as you pointed out,

my opinion is that the Liberals have not done what they could and should have to address and fix this problem.

[jdobbin]

His name starts with an "N", I think.

I can't honestly recall and I don't want to have to look up Hansard for it because it will take forever.

But why was the vote so close? Somebody was voting the party line...shall we say it was the Conservatives?

So everyone got up and ruffled their feathers, I don't think that changed anything. Who brought the bill forward and for what reason did it get so much attention at the time?

I am not an advocate of the death penalty. I don't believe anyone or the State should have the right to take another person's life. The privilege is too open to abuse.

The vote was close because so many of the Tories came from hardline ridings on the issue. I saw no evidence of party manipulation of individual MPs votes on the matter. I remember how many Tory MPs said they felt the same way as their constituents on the matter and gave reasoned speeches why.

I wish they would re-play those debates some time. It truly was a Parliament that rose above its usual rancor on such a controversial issue.

[jdobbin]

Thanks. Looking back at my post where I said "scaling back", it was not a precise way of explaining my thoughts. I'll clarify.

Given that:

overpopulation in Canadian federal prisons has been documented since the mid-nineties,

no new prisons have been built and

the rate of incarceration has increased as you pointed out,

my opinion is that the Liberals have not done what they could and should have to address and fix this problem.

Did I say incarceration levels were up? All the evidence I have seen says they are down along with crime rates until 2006. There are obviously exceptions to this but overall rates are way down province by province.

http://www.prisonjustice.ca/politics/facts_stats.html

While the incarceration rate is dropping, the number of Aboriginal prisoners and women in prison continues to increase.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/11/21/...ns.html?ref=rss

The rate of incarceration has risen in Canada for the first time in a decade, largely because courts are sending more people to jail to await trials and sentencing hearings, according to a Statistics Canada report released Wednesday.

You'll note that in 2005, the law was tightened to remand more people until trial.

The Tories have been in power since 2006. What new prisons are they are building?

[noahbody]

I saw no evidence of party manipulation of individual MPs votes on the matter.

If I recall, Brian encouraged MPs to vote their conscience, not as their constituents would have them vote.

[Pliny]

If I recall, Brian encouraged MPs to vote their conscience, not as their constituents would have them vote.

Most politicians don't have a conscience so....they voted along party lines..constituents have no clue and the party will not have a problem, or perhaps it is their only problem, convincing them the opposition are wrong.

[jdobbin]

Most politicians don't have a conscience so....they voted along party lines..constituents have no clue and the party will not have a problem, or perhaps it is their only problem, convincing them the opposition are wrong.

I guess I can take the cynical view of all professions from cops, doctors, nurses, lawyers etc. They're all hateful self-interested people who don't care for anyone else! They have no conscience! All humans bad, bad, bad!