Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian

[WIP]

God has the real...the enemy has the counterfiet..There is no middle road...only dangerous deception.

The enemy bares much fruit in the church setting because of a lack of knowledge... (My people perish for a lack of knowledge)

It takes a good understanding of the word and the help of the Holy Spirit to not be fooled in todays church and world.

I think this is the point where we hit the Mexican Standoff! Your position is based on personal understanding that I don't really relate to. I'm not going to pretend that I can make completely objective judgements about how our Universe really functions; everybody has beliefs that they have built upon influence from people or sources that they trust, and the greater the degree of certainty about a belief, the greater the amount of emotional attachment to that belief. Nobody with a firm belief in whatever the subject is - can just give it up and walk away as soon as he or she hears something to the contrary.

My goal is to try to limit the amount of emotional attachment I feel to my strongest beliefs, and after many decades of waffling a bit, I have always ended up rejecting religious interpretations, I have no doubt that my negative early experiences are a primary cause. But I have to carry that baggage with me and soldier on. I've never understood the point of liberal believers, such as my wife, who could be described as a liberal Catholic - she agrees with me on many of my beliefs, but for some reason that's foreign to me, finds value in maintaining her connection the the church of her mother, father and forebears. The church experience that she finds comforting, just leaves me bored and continually looking at my watch!

So I guess we can't all agree to believe the same things! Since there is so much subjectivity in the way we form our core beliefs, it seems clear that there is always going to be a great diversity of belief. Hopefully, in the future, we will gradually come together on the most important issues that affect everyone - like surviving annihilation through nuclear war or environmental catastrophe or something similar. We don't have to all have the same beliefs about how we got here, to make some progress on issues of survival and improving the quality of life.

[michele]

WIP says:

Your position is based on personal understanding that I don't really relate to.

It's true WIP... You have to want it for yourself bad enough. It has to be your first priority. God doesn't turn anybody down...But he also doesn't go around proving himself because people have a temper tantrum.

Your wife wouldn't be riding the fence if she'd had a close encounter with Christ...and she probably wouldn't be sitting in a Catholic Church much longer. The church as a whole has become corrupt with the Catholics leading the way. But the Protestants have their own brand of corruption.

According to Biblical history this always happens before judgement is allowed to take place by ones own enemies...Sad huh...But WIP..there's always a few good grapes left...He would have spared Sodom for 10..Has he changed since then? No. But he chastises those he loves and the shaking will cause the fence sitters to shift to one side or the other...then the end will come.

Nice talking to you...I'm thinking you want to be on your way... l hope you find it.

[sharkman]

I don't think God wants his reality to be proven to people by persuasion or cold logic. People ask why, if God is real, doesn't He prove himself. This would remove free will out of the picture, and therefore, love and faith. God does not force His reality on anyone.

[WIP]

WIP says:

It's true WIP... You have to want it for yourself bad enough. It has to be your first priority. God doesn't turn anybody down...But he also doesn't go around proving himself because people have a temper tantrum.

No, it's generally not the people who reject religion who have the temper tantrums; it's the religious who get frustrated, angry and hostile when people - especially their children - refuse to follow the script! For all of the boasting and proclaiming of absolute certainty of faith that evangelicals proclaim, they show themselves to be fragile and insecure when faced with rejection! Converts to the faith give the evangelical confidence and assurance that they aren't fumbling in the dark, but have the truth - otherwise others wouldn't be joining! But rejection of the true faith gives the proselytizing evangelical an uncomfortable choice, they either have to question their new found faith, or they have to reject family members for refusing to see through "the eyes of faith."

I've been through several different religions growing up, and after I left home at 17. And if I'm angry about this concept of dividing the "sheep" from the "goats," it has alot to do with situation when I left home; I had a choice - accept the Jehovah's Witness sect, or leave home! I chose to leave! That crazy, offbeat apocalyptic cult has probably broken up many families with their New Testament justification in Matthew 10 v.34 -36:

10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

I think of those verses whenever I hear the family values blather...................... Jesus the homewrecker!

Your wife wouldn't be riding the fence if she'd had a close encounter with Christ...and she probably wouldn't be sitting in a Catholic Church much longer. The church as a whole has become corrupt with the Catholics leading the way. But the Protestants have their own brand of corruption.

Who says she's riding the fence, and who are you to declare that an emotional experience that you have interpreted as "Christ" has to apply to everyone else? By setting up your interpretation as the only one that's right, that inevitably means that everyone else in wrong! Not, just non-Christians, but Catholics and Protestants with different doctrines of salvation are also damned just the same as the unbeliever! So much for Pascal's Wager!

I don't fully understand why my wife would rather hold on to her Catholic traditions (most of her family quit the Church), but obviously she chose not to reject her religion completely.

According to Biblical history this always happens before judgement is allowed to take place by ones own enemies...Sad huh...But WIP..there's always a few good grapes left...He would have spared Sodom for 10.Has he changed since then? No. But he chastises those he loves and the shaking will cause the fence sitters to shift to one side or the other...then the end will come.

Every generation since the first century has had end time preachers telling us that judgement day was coming. We are living in dangerous times now, but it's foolish to expect a magical divine intervention to save us now, since it didn't work in the past, and many believers acted wrecklessly because of their firm faith that God would intervene and deliver them from their enemies.

In the first century, Judeans were certain that the Messiah would come and free them from Roman bondage. They were also sure that the temple in Jerusalem could not be destroyed. They were wrong on both counts! I am reminded of the first century Zealots, Essenes and other apocalyptic Jewish sects who were so sure that they would be delivered that they provoked a rebellion and subsequent Roman invasion, whenever I read about apocalyptic Christians who look upon an all out MiddleEast war as a sign of the 2nd Coming. They expect to be raptured before all hell breaks loose; but from where I see it, they are going to be stuck right here on Earth with the rest of us!

Since you mention Sodom, what sort of yardstick did Yahweh use to decide who was righteous and who was unrighteous? I mean, if Lot, a man who throws his daughters to a mob in order to save the angels who were staying over at his house from the indignity of being raped; what were the bad guys like?

Genesis 19 v. 5-8

19:5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

19:6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,

19:7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.

19:8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.

Later on, in verses 30 to 36, his daughters get him drunk and have sex with him. Charming family!

Seriously, an in-depth reading of the Bible shows how different the values, interpretations of God, and even differ on what happens to us after we die. Part of the reason there are so many different religions, is because of the diversity of teachings in the 66 books of the bible.

.

Nice talking to you...I'm thinking you want to be on your way... l hope you find it.

I find it every day! To me, this is not about trying to solve a riddle; it's a search for knowledge that I don't expect to end with having every question answered.

[michele]

Wip, I didn't mean to be offensive about your wife...when you said "such as my wife, who could be described as a liberal Catholic - she agrees with me on many of my beliefs, but for some reason that's foreign to me, finds value in maintaining her connection the the church of her mother, father and forebears." .... l was reminded of a double minded person... like l am a lot of the time. It's hard not to be on the fence..It's hard to be a Christian.

2 Timothy 3:1-9

Difficult Times Will Come

1 But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. 2 For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, 4 treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these. 6 For among them are those who enter into households and captivate weak women weighed down with sins, led on by various impulses, 7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men of depraved mind, rejected in regard to the faith. 9 But they will not make further progress; for their folly will be obvious to all, just as Jannes’s and Jambres’s folly was also.

Some people stay in their Church because they're trying desperately to hang on to some sort of moral compass...but the whole lump is leavened. We are to "occupy" until he comes. (Such an appropriate word). There ARE good grapes scattered here and there. In every church God has a people. In my personal opinion...it has nothing to do with the church they're in...it's not a religion but a relationship with Christ. These poor souls not only battle the world but they stand battered within the church. Rejected on both fronts...........................

You said "fumbling in the dark"...sure. When people are born into this new life they are born as babes a new...and people go through stages as they struggle to run the race and reach maturity.

Nobody is born being there It's a struggle between flesh and spirit.. kind of like fence sitting.

The world sees the fleshly struggle and judges the church the same way the church judges the world..

WIP says:

By setting up your interpretation as the only one that's right, that inevitably means that everyone else in wrong! Not, just non-Christians, but Catholics and Protestants with different doctrines of salvation are also damned just the same as the unbeliever!

Jesus said "I am the way the truth and light...no man comes to the Father but by me".

It's not about religion it's about believing the God has the power to preserve his written word for mankind from beginning to end. Do you think if God is, who he says he is, he could do this?

I feel sorry for you about your Mom and Dad.. I went to church alone as a child. I grew up in the 50's and it was the culturally acceptable thing to go to church. Since l had an 8 year old "experience", l would go to Sunday school with my 2 sisters. My father would drop us off. My sisters would go right home after having been made to go to Sunday school. I would stay for the church service by myself and then walk home afterwards. I look back at how amazing that is..and how it must have looked to other people... seeing this lone girl sitting Sunday after Sunday...nobody said boo to me...Funny...l still go alone. My husband is a disillusioned X-Catholic.

Edited May 19, 2008 by michele

[Oleg Bach]

Wip, I didn't mean to be offensive about your wife...when you said "such as my wife, who could be described as a liberal Catholic - she agrees with me on many of my beliefs, but for some reason that's foreign to me, finds value in maintaining her connection the the church of her mother, father and forebears." .... l was reminded of a double minded person... like l am a lot of the time. It's hard not to be on the fence..It's hard to be a Christian.

Some people stay in their Church because they're trying desperately to hang on to some sort of moral compass...but the whole lump is leavened. We are to "occupy" until he comes. (Such an appropriate word). There ARE good grapes scattered here and there. In every church God has a people. In my personal opinion...it has nothing to do with the church they're in...it's not a religion but a relationship with Christ. These poor souls not only battle the world but they stand battered within the church. Rejected on both fronts...........................

You said "fumbling in the dark"...sure. When people are born into this new life they are born as babes a new...and people go through stages as they struggle to run the race and reach maturity.

Nobody is born being there It's a struggle between flesh and spirit.. kind of like fence sitting.

The world sees the fleshly struggle and judges the church the same way the church judges the world..

WIP says:

Jesus said "I am the way the truth and light...no man comes to the Father but by me".

It's not about religion it's about believing the God has the power to preserve his written word for mankind from beginning to end. Do you think if God is, who he says he is, he could do this?

I feel sorry for you about your Mom and Dad.. I went to church alone as a child. I grew up in the 50's and it was the culturally acceptable thing to go to church. Since l had an 8 year old "experience", l would go to Sunday school with my 2 sisters. My father would drop us off. My sisters would go right home after having been made to go to Sunday school. I would stay for the church service by myself and then walk home afterwards. I look back at how amazing that is..and how it must have looked to other people... seeing this lone girl sitting Sunday after Sunday...nobody said boo to me...Funny...l still go alone. My husband is a disillusioned X-Catholic.

Paulism is not Christianity..nor is the faith "built on Peter" - the only useful information is what comes from the mouth of the Christ - the rest is a fraud.

[michele]

Hi OB..I just now read your other post too. I didn't see it before. I guess l'm not quite sure what you mean? Do you think the Bible is just a book of men with philosophies based on Christ's teachings?

[WIP]

Wip, I didn't mean to be offensive about your wife...when you said "such as my wife, who could be described as a liberal Catholic - she agrees with me on many of my beliefs, but for some reason that's foreign to me, finds value in maintaining her connection the the church of her mother, father and forebears." .... l was reminded of a double minded person... like l am a lot of the time. It's hard not to be on the fence..It's hard to be a Christian.

Thankyou Michele, I didn't think you were deliberately being offensive, it's just that I don't think that most Christians realize how arrogant it sounds to others that their beliefs are meaningless and without value because they have a different interpretation. It's also comes across as sort of "divine blackmail" to be subjected to a fear-based argument with a threat of hellfire, for not being convinced by logic and reason alone.

There are two approaches for an evangelical to take: one is to preach to all non-Christians(including wrong Christians) as tactfully as possible, or the other option is to say nothing - which I think is chosen by the majority of evangelicals, since I have discovered so many who through third parties that have never talked to me directly about their beliefs, and why I need them.

Many people are offended by Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons and the handful of evangelical churches that do street-preaching; but I figure, if someone really believes the first century Christian attitude that they are in a race against time to make converts before they are eternally damned, then they have no choice other than constant proselytizing. I think many in that second group fear social ostracism if they express their beliefs to others, and are in the uncomfortable position of worrying about whether their shyness is condemning unbelievers to hell. My problem is not with the believers, but with the manner that this belief system has been set up. Even when I was a Christian, I could never get it out of my mind that the majority of people are condemned to eternal damnation regardless of who has the true version of Christianity, unless the true Christian doctrine is the universal salvation where no one goes to hell, that is expressed by Unitarian/Universalists and possibly a few others. Come to think of it, Judaism and Sikhism come close to be universalist also, since everyone who's righteous is supposed to be favoured in the eyes of God. Some like Buddhism, Taoism and I believe Hinduism, have temporary hells where the unrighteous and wicked serve their term before they can restore their Karma.......but this is going totally off track, let's just say, not every religion uses eternal punishment to try to keep people in line! The nagging doubts about the ethics of the Christian reward/punishment system cause many to deny or ignore this teaching that doesn't mesh with doctrine of a loving creator. My wife likely fits that category, but we don't spend a great amount of time discussing religion.

Belief is a subjective experience, so I can't say exactly what Catholicism means to her, except that it's something that she chooses to hold on to, whereas I was motivated at a young age to make a complete break from the J.W.'s, then from fundamentalist Christianity, then from Christianity completely, and finally from the religious experience as a way of finding meaning in life. The problem for people who reject the conventional approaches to dealing with life's big questions is that rejecting tradition means you have a lot of homework to do! That's why I don't see "atheist" as a very good descriptive tag to describe the unreligious; all it identifies is what you don't believe in - supernatural forces that exist and operate outside of nature - it doesn't identify what a person DOES believe in. An atheist has to decide on what sort of system of ethics to follow since there are no "thou shalt nots", and build an understanding of the natural world and human nature. Most people who go this route are already involved in philosophy or scientific fields of research, so it's a lot of work for the non-academic!

Some people stay in their Church because they're trying desperately to hang on to some sort of moral compass...but the whole lump is leavened. We are to "occupy" until he comes. (Such an appropriate word). There ARE good grapes scattered here and there. In every church God has a people. In my personal opinion...it has nothing to do with the church they're in...it's not a religion but a relationship with Christ. These poor souls not only battle the world but they stand battered within the church. Rejected on both fronts.........................You said "fumbling in the dark"...sure. When people are born into this new life they are born as babes a new...and people go through stages as they struggle to run the race and reach maturity.

Nobody is born being there It's a struggle between flesh and spirit.. kind of like fence sitting.

The world sees the fleshly struggle and judges the church the same way the church judges the world..

WIP says:

Jesus said "I am the way the truth and light...no man comes to the Father but by me".

It's not about religion it's about believing the God has the power to preserve his written word for mankind from beginning to end. Do you think if God is, who he says he is, he could do this?.

I hear this point made many times that there are people who will be saved in the apostate churches (like the Catholic Church), but looking at the requirement for salvation, I have to ask how do the apostates get "saved" when they have a different salvation model that requires membership in the one church that claims apostolic succession - in other words, they claim to have the "true" church that was founded by St. Peter.

Now, on the Catholic side, they use the same argument that: we have the true church, but some of the people outside God's Church can be saved. Before the Vatican II Council in the early 60's, they were preaching: no salvation outside the church, but moderated their drastic doctrine a little to make it less offensive to non-Catholics. But it still leaves that big, nebulous question that Christians who believe their are salvation requirements don't want to deal with directly: how many, if any who do not meet the doctrinal requirements for salvation, end up in the Christian Hell? Stating that it's all in God's hands, and he will make the best determination based on his omniscient knowledge of our lives and what's in our souls, is an evasion from having to deal directly with the problem of an all-merciful God sending the majority of his human creatures to dwell forever in unimaginable torment!

I feel sorry for you about your Mom and Dad.. I went to church alone as a child. I grew up in the 50's and it was the culturally acceptable thing to go to church. Since l had an 8 year old "experience", l would go to Sunday school with my 2 sisters. My father would drop us off. My sisters would go right home after having been made to go to Sunday school. I would stay for the church service by myself and then walk home afterwards. I look back at how amazing that is..and how it must have looked to other people... seeing this lone girl sitting Sunday after Sunday...nobody said boo to me...Funny...l still go alone. My husband is a disillusioned X-Catholic.

My wife had the same experience growing up as you did: being dropped off at church for Sunday School, and her father never went to church except for special occasions, while her mother attended Mass occasionally, perhaps on a monthly basis. We live a block away from the local Catholic Church, and she goes often to get away from the daily routine and finds the church setting important for her to pray and meditate. For myself, there are a million other locations I would prefer to have some time to myself!

That's about all for now. Take care, and thanks for your posted message!

[WIP]

Hi OB..I just now read your other post too. I didn't see it before. I guess l'm not quite sure what you mean? Do you think the Bible is just a book of men with philosophies based on Christ's teachings?

Oleg didn't explain which direction he is coming from with that statement, so it's anyone's guess which New Testament theory is referring to! Many liberal theologians and biblical textual scholars have offered the possibility that Jesus of Nazareth was not the Jesus that the Apostle Paul was referring to, since he doesn't mention important aspects of the life of Jesus, such as the miracles, healing the sick, and parables etc., some have wondered if Paul was a Gnostic, who didn't believe that Jesus Christ lived on Earth as a man. Also, Paul wanted Christianity to be a new religion which did not require any Judaic teaching or upholding of Mosaic Law, this confrontation between Jewish Christians and the growing body of gentiles who were outside of Judaism is touched on in the Book of Acts, in the confrontation between Paul and Peter. The Acts account has them resolve their differences quickly with no acrimony, which seems unlikely considering the fight that went on between keepers of the Law, like the Ebionites, and the Gnostic Christians who wanted nothing of Judaism. As the Church of Rome was able to establish an orthodoxy in the 3rd and 4th centuries, it appears that they settled on a compromise solution, and rejected the two hardline factions as heresies. The great shame is that the Catholic Church was so successful in burning books and killing heretics, that we only have bits and pieces left to study what was happening in Christianity during the early years.

[michele]

WIP says:

I don't think that most Christians realize how arrogant it sounds to others that their beliefs are meaningless and without value because they have a different interpretation.

See it isn't our interpretation that gives eternal life but our acceptance and belief that Christ's shed blood is our covering..That he rose from the dead...when we believe we confess it with our mouths... as you have alluded to when you addressed the proselytizing issue.

There are a lot of other creative ways to reach people rather than standing on corners or knocking on doors...People just don't want to get out of there comfort zone. PLUS ... (the big plus)... They don't know what the Bible says themselves and so rather than risk being exposed as a secular Christian they just go through the motions... Yes... it is sad. They do believe but use the controversy surrounding interpretations as their excuse not to read and trust the Holy Spirit to lead them in understanding..It takes time and effort. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. That's why many get in as barely escaping the flames.

I've had to learn on my own because the church l go to teaches more of the bare basics. They are trying to create community for hurting lost souls...I've only recently come to understand how Israel was originally divided into two nations. Israel and Judah..Just basic Jewish history which every Christian should know. Each has to be responsible for studying themselves.

WIP says:

Even when I was a Christian, I could never get it out of my mind that the majority of people are condemned to eternal damnation regardless of who has the true version of Christianity

I hope that maturity has taught you that this is a heart issue and not a theological one.

Do you really believe the preponderance of the evidence...and if you do what the consequences of that belief are...the cost of discipleship so to speak...

WIP...God is love. And he's a personal God.... not some non thinking ether. If you believe just that, then logic tells you that he had to leave something tangible..provable and concrete for mankind..Because that kind of God would never let man flounder on his own but would give a guild line. And He did. The Bible. Read it and it will cure yours ills. Trust the Holy Spirit to lead you and know the darkside is just as real and is constantly opposing those who try to break down strongholds. That's why when you say this;

I hear this point made many times that there are people who will be saved in the apostate churches (like the Catholic Church), but looking at the requirement for salvation, I have to ask how do the apostates get "saved" when they have a different salvation model that requires membership in the one church that claims apostolic succession - in other words, they claim to have the "true" church that was founded by St. Peter.

l'm again reminded that people, once saved will go through a honeymoon period of revelation and then God expects them to act on behalf of their belief and take the responsibility of knowledge.

We can't be always looking at what other people tell us but must read it for ourselves..but this can't be done if you don't believe God is love.... and he would never let man flounder on his own but would give a guild line.

[WIP]

WIP says:

See it isn't our interpretation that gives eternal life but our acceptance and belief that Christ's shed blood is our covering..That he rose from the dead...when we believe we confess it with our mouths... as you have alluded to when you addressed the proselytizing issue.

There are a lot of other creative ways to reach people rather than standing on corners or knocking on doors...People just don't want to get out of there comfort zone. PLUS ... (the big plus)... They don't know what the Bible says themselves and so rather than risk being exposed as a secular Christian they just go through the motions... Yes... it is sad. They do believe but use the controversy surrounding interpretations as their excuse not to read and trust the Holy Spirit to lead them in understanding..It takes time and effort. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. That's why many get in as barely escaping the flames.

I've had to learn on my own because the church l go to teaches more of the bare basics. They are trying to create community for hurting lost souls...I've only recently come to understand how Israel was originally divided into two nations. Israel and Judah..Just basic Jewish history which every Christian should know. Each has to be responsible for studying themselves.

In your interpretation, salvation is available to all simply by believing in the ransom sacrifice offered to all of those who believe that Jesus is the only path to salvation; or as the often quoted John 3:16 says: Whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life

The problem is that there are other New Testament verses that offer different requirements for salvation. One big one is baptism. Is baptism just a symbol of spiritual rebirth? Or is it a mandatory ritual required for salvation?

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

And if water baptism is a mandatory requirement for salvation, then the would-be Christian has to make sure that he or she is going to receive a real Christian baptism! For example, the infant baptism rites of the Catholic and mainstream Protestant churches, are not recognized as valid baptism ceremonies by the various Baptist churches that teach that baptism is supposed to be just the way John the Baptist did it: full immersion under water and after the prospective Christian has made a profession of faith and public declaration as a Christian - so that rules out the validity of infant baptism on two fronts!

Even among Baptists, there is still another matter to deal with: there are many fringe and heretical sects that practise the full immersion baptism, do they count? For example, I was baptised into the Jehovah's Witness sect many years ago, but since the Witnesses are a unitarian religion that denies the divinity of Jesus, the J.W. baptism wouldn't be valid for theological reasons.

Some of the other common requirements are continued receiving of the sacraments. Catholics don't have a "born again" belief, but instead believe in conditional salvation that must be maintained on a continual basis throughout one's life. The biggie is attending Mass for this reason:

John 6:53-54: Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Some small Christian sects like Seventh Day Adventists and these new Messianic Jewish sects believe that a Christian also has to keep the Law, or at least some part of the Mosaic Law like the moral laws expressed in the Commandments, and do good works to guarantee salvation:

Matthew 19:17-19: If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life.

James 2:17: Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Matthew 16.27: For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.

2 Corinthians 5:10: For we must all appear before the jugment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

1 Peter 1:17: The Father, who without partiality judges according to each one's work.

These are the main divisions of salvation doctrines, but there are scores of nuanced variations that combine some of these requirements together. And before I forget, there is still the matter of dealing with the theology that started with John Calvin, that the elect are predestined for salvation, and there's nothing the vast majority of unbelievers can do to share in the kingdom! I didn't get this years ago, but the five point Calvinists have their own Bible verses to quote from for the purpose of proving that God chooses who will be saved, not the sinner.

These are a few of the verses in the Wikipedia entry on Five Point Calvinism, in the English Standard Version:

# John 15:16: "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you."

# Acts 13:48: "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed."

# Romans 9:15-16: "For he says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy."

# Romans 9:22-24: "What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessles of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make the riches of his glory for vessles of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory - even us whom he has called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?"

# Ephesians 1:4-5: "even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,"

# Ephesians 1:11: "In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvinism#General_description

And with predestination comes "limited atonement." Only a few are chosen from the vast multitude of humanity! The Wiki article on limited atonement cites their supporting verses to support a belief that only a few are "chosen." What I always find fascinating about Calvinist theology, is that they feel no discomfort with a belief that most of humanity ends up roasting in hell's flames forever, and they make no bones about it! Most other Christians simply avoid looking directly at the discomforting thought of how many are cast into the fiery pit, and I think the Calvinists get around any cognitive dissonance of holding a belief that the omnibenevalent God tortures people forever by their extreme emphasis on the depravity and worthlessness of the sinner.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_atonement

But unless a Christian is a believer in some form of universal salvation they still have a huge ethical dilemma of trying to square this circle! How does the all-knowing, all-powerful, all-merciful and all-loving creator of the universe allow sending his creations to everlasting torment? Some of the answers created through theodicy try to deal with damnation by placing it out of God's hands and out of his control entirely. I've heard many responses along the lines of "God doesn't send people to hell, Sin sends them to hell" since they've refused the lifeline to heaven or such! But this answer carries with it the implication that God cannot be "all-powerful" if he doesn't have a choice in the matter!

Hell is just one segment of what's often referred to as "The Problem of Evil" and it is one of the major stumbling blocks to a belief in what some theologians refer to as the "Omnimax" Deity. Some theodicies have turned Christianity into a dualistic religion something like Zoroastrianism, where there is a constant spiritual warfare between the good god and the evil god. Even if they believe it is only a temporary condition until the Rapture and Second Coming, there's no getting around the fact that some fundamentalist preachers are teaching that Satan is an almost as powerful as God, since he is omnipresent in this world - constantly eavesdropping on the saved Christians and trying to lead them back into sin, and since he is given credit for almost all of the evil in the world and the Fall of Man, he is also an omnipotent deity here on Earth!

So, with all this said, my viewpoint is still that a Christian has a multitude of choices to form their beliefs, and each side has a treasure-trove of bible verses to quote from as supporting authority! To me, that pretty much rules out any validity in a supreme Christian doctrine. Odds are that whichever one you choose, the narrow path to salvation will be the wrong one!

WIP says:

I hope that maturity has taught you that this is a heart issue and not a theological one.

Do you really believe the preponderance of the evidence...and if you do what the consequences of that belief are...the cost of discipleship so to speak...

WIP...God is love. And he's a personal God.... not some non thinking ether. If you believe just that, then logic tells you that he had to leave something tangible..provable and concrete for mankind..Because that kind of God would never let man flounder on his own but would give a guild line. And He did. The Bible. Read it and it will cure yours ills. Trust the Holy Spirit to lead you and know the darkside is just as real and is constantly opposing those who try to break down strongholds. That's why when you say this;

I went through a whole laundry list of examples of contradictory paths to salvation above that call into question any belief that God left a written text as his "tangible proof" for us. Considering that this is the creator of the Universe we're talking about, why would he have to settle for a confusing, convoluted book that can be interpreted in many ways? IF it is a matter of leaving evidence, an all-powerful creator could write his message in the sky or align the stars to give us the commandments, for example! I'm sure an all-knowing deity could come up with more creative communication methods than I can! And if you add the problem that trusting your "heart" and looking for the "Holy Spirit" to guide you would only be valid as objective evidences for the true religion if everyone heard the same message from the Holy Spirit! But they don't! The fact that so many have claimed a "calling" or heard the Holy Spirit through the "voice of faith" in some way, demonstrates that this a personal subjective interpretation and not from an external source of any kind.

l'm again reminded that people, once saved will go through a honeymoon period of revelation and then God expects them to act on behalf of their belief and take the responsibility of knowledge.

We can't be always looking at what other people tell us but must read it for ourselves..but this can't be done if you don't believe God is love.... and he would never let man flounder on his own but would give a guild line.

Is this honeymoon period you describe part of God's plan, or is it just a conversion tactic used by his earthly emmisarys? After some of the proselytizing sects I became involved with, I noticed how wonderful they were when you first walked through the door - it is a tactic that is no different than what cult-analysts describe as "love-bombing" , and it is used to motivate the new prospect to abandon all doubts through an emotional appeal to accept their religion. After your in the door, then you start finding out the rules after they feel they have you securely in their grasp!

[michele]

I don't have time this morning...but don't forget the guy on the cross next to Jesus...case in point.

[jbg]

I know that I am not Michele or W.I.P. but here's my $0.02, relating to the actual topic.

Last weekend my family and I went to Williamsburg, Virginia, in the US's "mid-south". When I talked to some people about being Jewish, some asked if I was interested in becoming a "completed Jew". I said that I hold Christ and Christianity in deep respect, but do believe that considering Christ as the Messiah comes close to making a graven image.

[WIP]

I know that I am not Michele or W.I.P. but here's my $0.02, relating to the actual topic.

Last weekend my family and I went to Williamsburg, Virginia, in the US's "mid-south". When I talked to some people about being Jewish, some asked if I was interested in becoming a "completed Jew". I said that I hold Christ and Christianity in deep respect, but do believe that considering Christ as the Messiah comes close to making a graven image.

Maybe you should go back to the original post for the "actual topic" since you seem to feel that we needlessly derailed the thread! The opener was taken from an article that bashed fundamentalists for comic effect -- there wasn't anything to provide any depth of understanding about religious beliefs or the motivating factors for belief in general -- but if you want to discuss Messianic Judaism, there's no reason why it can't be added to the discussion! Actually, Michele and I have exchanged a few pm's and will likely continue the discussion we were having on another forum anyway.

I remember a little while back, you were mocking me for trying to explain the general differences in beliefs of Christians who adhere to Covenant theology vs. the Dispensationalist approach to Biblical History - how it affects their interpretations of what prophecies mean and when they are supposed to occur, and how these interpretations affect their views towards Jews and Judaism. Now that you've been approached by some of those Jew-friendly Christians who watch Messianic Jews on Pat Robertson's show and are trying to convince you that your Messiah already came to Earth (2000 years ago), maybe now you're getting the point that it might be good to know where they're coming from and have a few ready responses to conversion attempts!

You are also likely aware that accepting Jesus as the Messiah will mean that you would have to accept a trinitarian God, and reject the Jewish interpetation of Messianic prophecies, and interpretation of many doctrines, so now, maybe you're starting to get the picture that it's good to have at least a basic understanding of what other people believe! If for no other reason than to explain why you have to make a choice between keeping your religion and accepting Christianity. You can't do both without reinterpreting Judaism in a way that is unacceptable to all of the traditional teachings.

Maybe Wikipedia is a good place to start!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_Judaism

[jbg]

I remember a little while back, you were mocking me for trying to explain the general differences in beliefs of Christians who adhere to Covenant theology vs. the Dispensationalist approach to Biblical History...

I'm a bit tired now but I am sorry for mocking you. I have come to respect your posts more.

[WIP]

I'm a bit tired now but I am sorry for mocking you. I have come to respect your posts more.

Thank you! No need for apology; I was fairly new here at the time, and it's hard to get a handle on where many people are coming from when they discuss issues involving religion.