800 megawatt power plant in Brantford

[kengs333]

Wasn't part of the reason for the protests around Caledonia to STOP development and preserve greenspaces? And now there is a proposal for a new power plant in Brantford on native-owned land, a project which would directly involve Six Nations.

http://www.brantfordexpositor.ca/ArticleDi...th=Susan+Gamble

[charter.rights]

Wasn't part of the reason for the protests around Caledonia to STOP development and preserve greenspaces? And now there is a proposal for a new power plant in Brantford on native-owned land, a project which would directly involve Six Nations.

http://www.brantfordexpositor.ca/ArticleDi...th=Susan+Gamble

The purpose of the protests was to force the government to recognize lands claims and to consult and accommodate Six Nations BEFORE all the land was used up. Taking a brownfield and capitalizing on needed infrastructure is a business venture that will contribute to regional economic development. That is something they have always stood for, so long as developers complied with the law first.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

I think the folks there should build the power plant and start making some money for themselves. Perhaps even get off of the revolving welfare system that First Nations seem to be stuck on.

[charter.rights]

I think the folks there should build the power plant and start making some money for themselves. Perhaps even get off of the revolving welfare system that First Nations seem to be stuck on.

Hmmmm....that's novel idea...and exactly what they are doing.

BTW few Six Nations people are on the dole. The majority of them hold full time jobs or own their own businesses.

[kengs333]

Hmmmm....that's novel idea...and exactly what they are doing.

BTW few Six Nations people are on the dole. The majority of them hold full time jobs or own their own businesses.

Whatever "businesses" means... Aren't there somewhere in the range of 300 "smoke shops" on or around Six Nations?

[kengs333]

The purpose of the protests was to force the government to recognize lands claims and to consult and accommodate Six Nations BEFORE all the land was used up. Taking a brownfield and capitalizing on needed infrastructure is a business venture that will contribute to regional economic development. That is something they have always stood for, so long as developers complied with the law first.

So what ever happened to "protecting Mother Earth"? Or is that just more double-talk for the benefit of "whites"? As is the case whenever "whites" develop some sort of project, the question always remains whether or not something more eco-friendly can be made of the land instead. I'm not familiar with the parcel of land so I don't know how practicable that would be, but why not just restore the land's ecosystem instead? Why a multi-hundred-million dollar power plant?

[AngusThermopyle]

So what ever happened to "protecting Mother Earth"? Or is that just more double-talk for the benefit of "whites"? As is the case whenever "whites" develop some sort of project, the question always remains whether or not something more eco-friendly can be made of the land instead. I'm not familiar with the parcel of land so I don't know how practicable that would be, but why not just restore the land's ecosystem instead? Why a multi-hundred-million dollar power plant?

I can answer that in one word.

Money.

[charter.rights]

Whatever "businesses" means... Aren't there somewhere in the range of 300 "smoke shops" on or around Six Nations?

The tobacco industry is nearly a $billion business. There is lots of money in those little ma and pa operations and they are looking to diversify their investments into tangible and long term businesses. Good for them......

[charter.rights]

So what ever happened to "protecting Mother Earth"? Or is that just more double-talk for the benefit of "whites"? As is the case whenever "whites" develop some sort of project, the question always remains whether or not something more eco-friendly can be made of the land instead. I'm not familiar with the parcel of land so I don't know how practicable that would be, but why not just restore the land's ecosystem instead? Why a multi-hundred-million dollar power plant?

I guess you haven't read their plan.

The HDI has Red and yellow zones on their map of the Haldimand which restrict and prevent development in certain areas. The green zones recognize where the cities and towns have already destroyed the earth and allow development in their own little destroyed areas, preventing them from expanding that destruction into farm lands, conservation lands and pristine table lands.

[AngusThermopyle]

There is lots of money in those little ma and pa operations and they are looking to diversify their investments into tangible and long term businesses. Good for them......

Here we go again.

So you went around to all these little shops and all the owners showed you long term business plans indicating sustainable growth and future expansion into diversified fields?

Once more you're just spouting idealistic crap with no more basis in truth than the tooth fairy.

Edited January 28, 2008 by AngusThermopyle

[charter.rights]

Here we go again.

So you went around to all these little shops and all the owners showed you long term business plans indicating sustainable growth and future expansion into diversified fields?

Once more you're just spouting idealistic crap with no more basis in truth than the tooth fairy.

I've been to many and consulted with many others. And since I frequent reserves all over Ontario on a regular basis I have a pretty good idea on where the money is coming from for all the new buildings that the Natives are building. The Health Centres and other government infrastructure is coming mostly from the Rama Fund and Trillion Foundation grants. However, the new variety stores, the new ATV sales the new clothing stores etc. are from re-investment of tobacco profits. Most of the natives I talk to are aware that the tobacco industry is just a short term benefit. So they are taking their profits and re-investing in long-term businesses. Some are even putting a little aside for their own community meal programs, making sure that everyone gets fed. There are many intelligent business people involved not only in the tobacco industry, but in other businesses and most of them have some major centres they market to close by. The advantage of buying goods and services on reserve isn't only getting them tax-free, but they often have lower wages which bring the overall costs lower than mainstream businesses. And most of what I get is much better quality because those business care about keeping their customers satisfied so people like me will frequent their establishments.

[kengs333]

The tobacco industry is nearly a $billion business. There is lots of money in those little ma and pa operations and they are looking to diversify their investments into tangible and long term businesses. Good for them......

Yeah, a "$billion business" for whom. We all know what's going on at Six Nations.

[August1991]

I can answer that in one word.

Money.

From the original article in the OP:

Porter has been working since last May, visiting and revisiting the two councils on Six Nations, working to collect letters of support and acknowledgement.

"Brantford is a sweet spot for one of these things," he says.

But there hasn't been much buzz in the city about the idea.

I wonder how Porter has obtained the letters of support?

----

At a time when local zoning laws and environmental regulations have made it all but impossible to build any sizeable plant anywhere, it's good to know that money still talks. After all, people want electricity.

[charter.rights]

Yeah, a "$billion business" for whom. We all know what's going on at Six Nations.

You have proven over and over again, don't know what is going on at Six Nations. Maybe if you did a bit of research and posted your findings like you have been asked repeatedly then perhaps your opinion wouldn't be regarded as nothing more than a grain of sand in a boulder.

Money brought into a community gets distributed around. According to economist every dollar touches 7 people at least once. A billion dollars might touch 6000 people with about $25,000 each.....

Edited January 29, 2008 by charter.rights

[kengs333]

You have proven over and over again, don't know what is going on at Six Nations. Maybe if you did a bit of research and posted your findings like you have been asked repeatedly then perhaps your opinion wouldn't be regarded as nothing more than a grain of sand in a boulder.

"You have proven over and over again, [sic] don't" want to admit or acknowledge "what is going on at Six Nations."

[Melanie_]

The tobacco industry is nearly a $billion business. There is lots of money in those little ma and pa operations and they are looking to diversify their investments into tangible and long term businesses. Good for them......

The tobacco industry directly contributes to the cost of health care, which is slightly offset by the taxes people pay on their cigarettes. What is the tax status of those little ma and pa operations? Anyone who deliberately compromises their health by smoking should be contributing to the cost of their treatment via taxes.

[kengs333]

The tobacco industry directly contributes to the cost of health care, which is slightly offset by the taxes people pay on their cigarettes. What is the tax status of those little ma and pa operations? Anyone who deliberately compromises their health by smoking should be contributing to the cost of their treatment via taxes.

http://www.brantfordexpositor.ca/ArticleDi...Daniel%20Pearce

[charter.rights]

The tobacco industry directly contributes to the cost of health care, which is slightly offset by the taxes people pay on their cigarettes. What is the tax status of those little ma and pa operations? Anyone who deliberately compromises their health by smoking should be contributing to the cost of their treatment via taxes.

There is no tax on any of the tobacco products, save and except the $150 million Grand River Enterprises pays in excise taxes every year. However, the tobacco contains no additives (unlike the store bought kinds) that are used to enhance nicotine effect and addictive quality. On the scale of things these tobacco products are better for you than store-bought stuff......if that is any consolation.

There is NO TAX on reserve because Six Nations and others are not Canadians. It is useless to suggest that the mainstream tobacco revenues somehow offset health care, since tobacco taxes, like alcohol and gaming taxes are put straight into general revenues. All these sin taxes aren't about helping the cause. There are money makers that the government milks from the economy.

[Melanie_]

What do you suppose that general revenue pays for? Claiming that the government is merely “milking the economy” is a poor attempt to justify the tobacco industry – any tobacco industry – and minimize the health consequences of cigarettes.

Understand, I am not opposed to the tax free status of First Nations. I am opposed, though, to people deliberately making poor choices then expecting others to carry the cost.

[kengs333]

There is NO TAX on reserve because Six Nations and others are not Canadians.

That's not why they are exempted. Six Nations is on Canadian territory, members of Six Nations receive benefits from both the federal and provincial governments, they use Canadian currency; sometimes they're even subject to Canadian laws, and they certainly don't mind relying on Canadian services when it benefits them.

[charter.rights]

That's not why they are exempted. Six Nations is on Canadian territory, members of Six Nations receive benefits from both the federal and provincial governments, they use Canadian currency; sometimes they're even subject to Canadian laws, and they certainly don't mind relying on Canadian services when it benefits them.

Of course that is the "Canadian" version which holds no water where sovereign Mohawks are concerned. They have their own laws and reject Canadian law.

CRA tried to challenge this one guy I knew about collecting tax as a limited company on reserve. He told them to shove the idea and presented them with a copy of a law that that Band Council had enacted that stated that no businesses on their Territory were to collect taxes for foreign governments. The CRA took him to court and the judge told CRA to do their homework, and threw out the case citing that where there is a native law and it is consistent with their aboriginal rights there was no obligation for them to collect tax on behalf of Canada. CRA declined to take it further because they feared that the bullying they do to some First Nations' residents would be exposed and they would lose their ability to demand taxes from them as well.

Tax-free status isn't a perk granted by Canada. It is an Aboriginal right as sovereign allies of the Crown.

The use of foreign currency accepted by another nation does not reduce Six Nation's sovereignty anymore than the using the Euro-dollar makes one nation out of many. I frequently purchase stuff on-line using either the $US or $Euro as currency and it does not diminish my citizenship one iota. As to dependency...our homes and our business have been built with ill-gotten timber and other stolen resources and we don't seem to mind using them when it is convenient to us....We have a legal responsibility to provide services for First Nations that has nothing to do with choice....Or don't you believe in the law?

[tango]

Yeah, a "$billion business" for whom. We all know what's going on at Six Nations.

...

That's not why they are exempted. Six Nations is on Canadian territory, members of Six Nations receive benefits from both the federal and provincial governments, they use Canadian currency; sometimes they're even subject to Canadian laws, and they certainly don't mind relying on Canadian services when it benefits them.

It was pointed out that one business at Six Nations - Grand River Enterprise - pays $150m in federal tobacco excise taxes.

That's double the federal funding that goes to the Six Nations Band Council for all assistance and services. (welfare, education, health, Band Council administration, water, roads, power, etc, etc.)

Six Nations people look after themselves and are also net contributers to Canada's coffers.

Even if you look through the archives at their historical annual evaluations from the feds ... squeaky clean and competent. (But the feds, on the other hand, 'misplaced' a lot of Six Nations money.)

So I don't have a clue what you're on about.

Edited April 23, 2009 by tango

[tango]

What do you suppose that general revenue pays for? Claiming that the government is merely “milking the economy” is a poor attempt to justify the tobacco industry – any tobacco industry – and minimize the health consequences of cigarettes.

Understand, I am not opposed to the tax free status of First Nations. I am opposed, though, to people deliberately making poor choices then expecting others to carry the cost.

A White House statement supporting the bill, which awaits action in the Senate, echoed the argument by contending that tobacco use "accounts for over a $100 billion annually in financial costs to the economy."

However, smokers die some 10 years earlier than nonsmokers, according to the CDC, and those premature deaths provide a savings to Medicare, Social Security, private pensions and other programs.

Vanderbilt University economist Kip Viscusi studied the net costs of smoking-related spending and savings and found that for every pack of cigarettes smoked, the country reaps a net cost savings of 32 cents.

"It looks unpleasant or ghoulish to look at the cost savings as well as the cost increases and it's not a good thing that smoking kills people," Viscusi said in an interview. "But if you're going to follow this health-cost train all the way, you have to take into account all the effects, not just the ones you like in terms of getting your bill passed."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2009-0...cco-costs_N.htm

Looks to me like we can stop concerning ourselves with other people's choices, since we're earning money on the deal.

The information I want to see is research on smoking natural tobacco vs the toxic commercial stuff.

Edited April 23, 2009 by tango

[Topaz]

The last I read was the Feds get 9 BILLION in tobacco taxes but that is going down because of people quitting. I also saw a article in the paper recently, that smoking outside on public areas could become law very soon and once one municipality does it, soon all will follow. BTW, A 44 year man with his 10 year son was fined 110.00 for smoking in the car with his son, this happened on the 401. in Ontario.

[Borg]

The purpose of the protests was to force the government to recognize lands claims and to consult and accommodate Six Nations BEFORE all the land was used up. Taking a brownfield and capitalizing on needed infrastructure is a business venture that will contribute to regional economic development. That is something they have always stood for, so long as developers complied with the law first.

So the first protest for whatever reason - after the power plant is built - blockade the plant and pull the plug?

Borg