Russell by-law spat sparks bilingual study

[Leafless]

Go say that to all those Montrealers who speak English on the street, get and offer service in English in restaurants, conduct their private lives in English.

REPEAT: Montreal has NO bilingual policy. This means bilingualism in Montreal is voluntary.

Besides many English speaking Canadians live in Monteral and many buisnesses cater to the majority language of Canada.

BTW- English is still the majority language of all Canada , even in Quebec.

Then why are you clamoring for laws that would restrict commerce in languages other than English?

Because the working language and common language of Canada is English.

Nice to know that you do not approve of a municipal by-law of the City of Toronto that regulate the language of commerce by stating that clients have the right to deal with cab drivers able to speak English. Me, I have no problem with it.

You would if the cab drivers started speaking to you in Arabic. By-laws are to ensure cab drivers speak the language of common communication, spoken by the majority of residents of Canada.

Any language policies that restrict use of any language, or all languages except one, IS discriminatory.

Your hatred of the majority English language of commerce and of common communication is ample proof it must be protected from extremist groups.

But thank you for demonstrating double standard again.

There is no double standard.

English is the de-facto majority language of commerce and common communication of ALL of Canada.

Because my English is almost as bad as yours,

It is much worse.

I just overlook it, as I usually understand what you are trying to say.

or because I caught you describing English-speaking Canadians as a minority?

I don't know what you are talking about.

Quote whatever you are referring to.

Wrong again. Quebec is a Canadian program, a fact you deplore of course.

I don't know what you are talking about. Please clarify.

Also, as per the term of Manitoba's terms of entry into Confederation (1871), English and French have equal status in laws and debates of the legislature.

So what.

As per the terms of the French-Language Services Act (1986), the Government of Ontario provides provincial services in French through most of the provinces, and provincial laws are voted both in English, and French. Under the terms of the Constitutional Act of 1982, education is available (in a limited fashion) in both English and French in all provinces and territories.

So what.

This as nothing to do with French as any kind of official language in the province of Ontario.

Edited July 1, 2008 by Leafless

[CANADIEN]

Yes, language laws are becoming a necessity due to racial discrimination by Quebec and their language laws and the federal government for failing to protect linguistic minorities from oppression and racial discrimination resulting from Quebec imposed language laws.

Wanted the quote fron you calling English-speaking Canadians a minority... you have it.

And now to my mistake..

Quebec is a Canadian PROVINCE

[CANADIEN]

Both the English and French are present, alive, and used in multiple aspects of life in Montreal... I call that being a de facto bilingual city.

And the common language of 80% of Quebec population is French, not that justifies linguistic discrimination, of course.

But these are secondary points...

There is no truth whatsoever to the hysteric claim by language zealots that the English language is threatened in Ontario. It is not. Not by unecessary sign laws in Russell and other townships (as I said, nothing that could not be done through a good boycott). Not by the entirely justified provincial legislation mandating municipal services in both English and French for the City of Ottawa. Not by any piece of federal legislation, not by any piece of federal legislation, not by any of the undemocratic and discriminatory Quebec language laws, which do not apply in Ontario after all.

The only ones making the ridiculous statement that English is threatened in Ontario are those who would dictate that only English is to be used in public... or even private. Their discriminatory philosophy is clear.

And BTW, leafless... My doctor asks that you stop saying that I hate English-speaking Canadians. He is afraid too much laughing might be bad for me

[Leafless]

Wanted the quote fron you calling English-speaking Canadians a minority... you have it.

It is Quebec that considers French speakers in Quebec a majority and the English speakers and other nationalities in Quebec minorities.

And now to my mistake..

Quebec is a Canadian PROVINCE

Last I heard it thinks it is a nation with its own French official language, that has never signed the Constitution and does not provide Charter Rights for what Quebec considers its linguistic minorities.

What other PROVINCE in Canada is like Quebec?

Edited July 2, 2008 by Leafless

[CANADIEN]

Last I heard it thinks it is a nation with its own French official language, that has never signed the Constitution and does not provide Charter Rights for what Quebec considers its linguistic minorities.

What other PROVINCE in Canada is like Quebec?

Typical Leafless... You despise the Charter, except when it suits you.

[Leafless]

Typical Leafless... You despise the Charter, except when it suits you.

The racially discriminatory Charter should be scrapped.

But until that time comes, the Charter is supposed to be applicable to all citizens and all provinces.

So what is Quebec's problem or yours with recognizing Charter rights? And what are you implying when you state "except when it suits you"?

This also makes the federal government incompetent relating to enforcing Charter rights in Quebec.

[CANADIEN]

The racially discriminatory Charter should be scrapped.

But until that time comes, the Charter is supposed to be applicable to all citizens and all provinces.

Only in English, of course, right? In other words, only when it suits you.

So what is Quebec's problem or yours with recognizing Charter rights?

And what is your problem getting my clear opinion about Quebec language laws? As for the problem the Quebec's government has with recognizing Charter rights, it's the same as yours.

BTW, you have something new to entertain people with/ Your line that quebec is discriminatory for doing what YOU want to do is getting stale.

[Leafless]

Only in English, of course, right? In other words, only when it suits you.

No one wanted or asked for the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

It was a Trudeau invention who was an employee of Quebec.

The original 'Bill of Rights' served ALL Canadians rather than a select few.

And what is your problem getting my clear opinion about Quebec language laws?

You don't have a clear opinion.

You condemn Quebec language laws but support the same type of racially discriminating by-laws in Russell, Ontario.

As for the problem the Quebec's government has with recognizing Charter rights, it's the same as yours.

That is a very uncivil, unpatriotic thing to say and again shows the contempt you have against English speaking Canadians.

BTW, you have something new to entertain people with/ Your line that quebec is discriminatory for doing what YOU want to do is getting stale.

That is your line.

You are the comedian.

[CANADIEN]

No one wanted or asked for the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

It was a Trudeau invention who was an employee of Quebec.

The original 'Bill of Rights' served ALL Canadians rather than a select few.

You don't have a clear opinion.

You condemn Quebec language laws but support the same type of racially discriminating by-laws in Russell, Ontario.

That is a very uncivil, unpatriotic thing to say and again shows the contempt you have against English speaking Canadians.

That is your line.

You are the comedian.

At least you got something new besides the usal misinterpretation and bigoted raving. Now, I am nobody.

[cybercoma]

Even in New Brunswick, which is bilingual, signs on private businesses are not bilingual.

[Leafless]

Even in New Brunswick, which is bilingual, signs on private businesses are not bilingual.

That is sort of a plus for NB being an officially bilingual province.

You cannot abuse Charter rights by abusing the Notwithstanding Clause to favour either official language.

[NWCanuck]

This topic makes me groan every time I trip across it. So a muni gov't someplace is wrestling with what to do with bilingualism. So what. This seems to have dragged the typically fossilized stereotypes and propoganda out of the closet. Anglos are repressive, french is being "shoved down the throats of english canada" (my favorite), fracophones are being "oppressed" (another good one). It all gets more than a little tiring. I've been hearing this whining and complaining from both sides of the cereal box my entire life and I'm fed up with it. It's complete and utter bs fabricated by a quebec separtist party trying to drive wedges between the anglos and francophones any way it can and a group of head up ass federalists who can't see the forest for the trees. Don't like bilingualism? You probably learned that one in junior high along with not liking math, history, science, or school in general. Why? It lacks immediate applicability in your life and society with the sneaking (and stupid) inclination that somebody, somewhere is trying to take over your society with somebody else's culture. Jesus. I always feel like I'm listening to the dumb guy in the junior high trying to justify why he's quitting school to become a roofer (it's the money and the dope man....)

How about this instead: biligualism (and fracophone society in general) is a smart thing to keep around as it helps relate to much of the rest of the planet. How could this be? Simple. As you probably already know french and spanish are both romance languages; know one and you pretty much know the other. Who speaks spanish? Look south, waaay south to that giant pile of rock called South America that we are forming free trade deals with. Want to deal with them? Of course we do! If you've been anywhere other than an english speaking nation you know how well it's recieved when you can parle with the locals. Want to speak french only? Fine. There are a plethora of former french colonies like Canada that maintain a french dialoge that happen to be swimming in this black stuff called oil. But that's me, I'm greedy with poor sentence structure. Case in point: go to your map and find British and French Guyana. Side by side and get along ok - with the exception of the fact that they were never merged like Canada was. Offshore drilling with a polite border dispute, a potentially PERFECT fit for us. How about Algeria? They hate/love France, speak french and again, sit on a lake of oil. Need I go on? Vietnam (well kinda..)? huh?

But what do we do? Take a look at this thread. People trotting out bullsh#t that's been bandied about for the past 25 years to no avail. To hell with what the haters and find a solution, or at least a process that would lead people to finding a solution. Stop arguing about the constition because everyone on this thread and in this nation (that includes Quebec) understands that it needs work. Set up a college or somesuch that would be required to put forth amendments every five years for general public discussion on how to make it less irksome and more workable. Worried about losing your franco/anglo culture? Put the problem to the college and fill the college with intelligent people from all over Canada and move it around from university to university so no one province can claim domion over it. Hell, it can start in Labrador and make a lap around Canada clockwise! If France can patch their constitution over 200 times, so can we! Canada can produce some pretty damn good policy makers and by the end of it, no one will know what the hell is going on and we' just go and pound some beer/biere/however you spell it and curse Ottawa in unsion. As a fifth generation anglophone I've pounded many a beer with francophones and are proud to call them my friends. This kind of crap brings shame to the game.

As for the nonsensical argument that there are no francophones in the west, that's just crap. Take out a map and start looking at towns (small ones) in Alberta. Scrape the rust off of your french vocabulary and find places like Beamont, Castor, Pouce Coupe (ok, it's in BC but I had to add it - WHO HURTS THEIR HAND AND NAMES A TOWN AFTER IT???? Probably a BC french student..... Start driving around and checking these places out for curiosities' sake, and you'll be suprised. Hell I grew up in the Peace River country and there's a francophone population there along with a full scale french immersion program should you choose to enroll. It's kind of all over in a patchy, quirky, understated way that in itself is quite Canadian. It's taken my more than a few years to start understanding this place, but the more I understand it the less tolerance I have for the stay-at-home armchair quaterbacks puking out their hate. I could give a crap about which map/document is more insightful of 18th century Ontario/Quebec settlements and look to the future. The world is integrating and and if any of us don't want our grandchildren speaking nothing but Cantonese (not taking a shot here - I just picked another language at random) we'd better pull up our socks and stop whining. I'm going to bed.

[Leafless]

Hell I grew up in the Peace River country and there's a francophone population there along with a full scale french immersion program should you choose to enroll. It's kind of all over in a patchy, quirky, understated way that in itself is quite Canadian. It's taken my more than a few years to start understanding this place, but the more I understand it the less tolerance I have for the stay-at-home armchair quaterbacks puking out their hate. I could give a crap about which map/document is more insightful of 18th century Ontario/Quebec settlements and look to the future. The world is integrating and and if any of us don't want our grandchildren speaking nothing but Cantonese (not taking a shot here - I just picked another language at random) we'd better pull up our socks and stop whining. I'm going to bed.

It is clear you do not understand the scope of the problem that exist especially in Eastern Canada as the French currently have not yet gained that kind linguistic foothold in your neck of the woods.

Employment is the name of the game.

The minority French want English employment under the guise of bilingualism, but at the same time keep Quebec unilingual French along with their employment, proffessional services and even suppliers of food, various types of equipment, contractor supplies etc.

The French have created an artificial requirement for bilingualism in provinces like majority English speaking Ontario, 4% French, that have no provincial specific language policy. How dare federal and provincial or municipal governments encourage and allow this type of French linguistic manovre and at the same time destroy employment opportunities for the English speaking majority residents of Ontario.

The French have partially succeeded in slowly forcing the French language outside of the province of Quebec including the federal government itself that harbours an official bilingual policy.

Of course federal and municipal or provincial promoting of bilingualism is racially discriminatory as 'freedom of expression' is a guaranteed Charter right, but is totally ignored by corrupt politicians. French is NOT being freely propagated.

In Ottawa, Ontario a bilingual policy was implemented by mere city councillors rather than by the residents of Ottawa themselves in a province that IS NOT officially bilingual.

Even in the province of officially bilingual New Brunswick there are MORE problems with French immersion:

New Brunswick French immersion segregated, discriminatory: report

Canwest News Service

Published: Friday, July 11, 2008

SAINT JOHN, N.B. - A report highly critical of New Brunswick's early French immersion program says it has created a system segregated by social status comparable to the gap between U.S. whites and African-Americans.

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/s...7e-88153e966f65

You better pull up your socks if you want to ensure that English speaking job, you probably have, remains English speaking.

Edited July 13, 2008 by Leafless

[CANADIEN]

More nonsense...

The French(...)

We are Canadians... Strike one

have created an artificial requirement for bilingualism in provinces like majority English speaking Ontario, 4% French, that have no provincial specific language policy.

Ontario has provincial legislation, and a government policy, mandating delivery of provincial services in Englisn and French, the passing of provincial services in English and French, and services in English and French in the city of Ottawa. Strike two.

How dare federal and provincial or municipal governments encourage and allow this type of French linguistic manovre.

The same way they dare to allow the City of Toronto to pass a by-law that states that taxi clients are entitled to services in English (the more I think about it, the more I think it is a good thing), or cities in BC that pas by-law mandating that English appears on commercial signs. Strike three.

Of course federal and municipal or provincial promoting of bilingualism is racially discriminatory as 'freedom of expression' is a guaranteed Charter right

...

Says the man who favours English-only sign laws. Strike four.

In Ottawa, Ontario a bilingual policy was implemented by mere city councillors

Duly elected by citizens. Strike six. Acting in accordance with a duly voted and enacted provincial law. Strike seven.

[Leafless]

More nonsense...

We are Canadians...

Okay have it your way.

That is Canadians who make it their business to destroy this country on the basis of their holy French culture.

Ontario has provincial legislation, and a government policy, mandating delivery of provincial services in Englisn and French

This is like you say, is a service, not a bilingual policy and something minority English speaking Quebec counterparts are DENIED in Quebec. Yes boys and girls, you heard right, there is no English Services Act Quebec. the Quebec government does not recognize the contribution of the English speaking population in Quebec.

the passing of provincial services in English and French and services in English and French in the city of Ottawa.

Yes, that was a discriminatory federal type imposed bilingual policy city councillors passed without holding a referendum on the issue. City of Ottawa residents who pay the taxes were denied their right to be part of municipal referendum whether or not to accept or not accept this bilingual policy.

The same way they dare to allow the City of Toronto to pass a by-law that states that taxi clients are entitled to services in English (the more I think about it, the more I think it is a good thing), or cities in BC that pas by-law mandating that English appears on commercial signs.

To bad you cannot differentiate between a private business supplying a public service to majority English customers and councillors dictating a minority language sign law that favours a minority unofficial language.

Duly elected by citizens, acting in accordance with a duly voted and enacted provincial law.

Ottawa's bilingual policy was not the business of mere city councillors. Their job duties were posted before, like fixing potholes and not involving themselves in a divisive language policy.

If Mc.Guinty allowed this bilingual policy, then he is another politician mimicking corrupt, undemocratic federal style bilingualism in a possible illegal manner. This is saying to date, no one has challenged Ontario Premier Mc.Guinty's decision to unilaterally accept the decision of a bilingual policy decided unilaterally by Ottawa city councillors.

[guyser]

Their job duties were posted before,

Yes, I posted them and it said nothing as you describe. They can and do make by laws, such as this one. Dont like it change the by laws of council.

like fixing potholes and not involving themselves in a divisive language policy.

Other than a photo op, no councilman/woman has ever fixed a pot hole. Goes agianst the union rules doncha know?

This is saying to date, no one has challenged Ontario Premier Mc.Guinty's decision to unilaterally accept the decision of a bilingual policy decided unilaterally by Ottawa city councillors.

And the reason no one has?

Its a municipal thing and none of his business.

[Leafless]

Yes, I posted them and it said nothing as you describe. They can and do make by laws, such as this one. Dont like it change the by laws of council.

I posted councillor job duties from the City of Rochester N.Y., which is a REAL city and not a social service agency like city of Ottawa socialist councillors have created FOR THEMSELVES.

Other than a photo op, no councilman/woman has ever fixed a pot hole. Goes agianst the union rules doncha know?

That I can believe as there are thousands of unrepaired potholes scattered throughout the city.

And the reason no one has?

Its a municipal thing and none of his business.

None of who's business?

If you are making reference to the premier, he must allow a bilingual policy to become legal in Ottawa.

And premier Liberal Dalton Mc.Guinty did allow Ottawa's racist bilingual policy something that Mike Harris never did when he was premier of Ontario. He knew it was a racist policy and no racist policy was necessary for the city of Ottawa and therefore Mr. Harris never approved it.

[CANADIEN]

Okay have it your way.

That is Canadians

You finally got something right. Not all hope is lost for you.

This is like you say, is a service, not a bilingual policy and something minority English speaking Quebec counterparts are DENIED in Quebec. Yes boys and girls, you heard right, there is no English Services Act Quebec. the Quebec government does not recognize the contribution of the English speaking population in Quebec.

Which is one of the reasons why I think Quebec's language laws are a pile of m*anure. As for you, we know full well what you want is Quebec-style language laws (and worse) in reverse, that is no language other English in Ontario. I'd ask you to drop the hypocrital act of blaming Quebec for doing what you want to do, but you won't get it.

Yes, that was a discriminatory federal type imposed bilingual policy city councillors passed without holding a referendum on the issue. City of Ottawa residents who pay the taxes were denied their right to be part of municipal referendum whether or not to accept or not accept this bilingual policy.

One, the Ottawa language policy is not discriminatory, as its opponents learned when they failed to have it overturned in court. Two, that the Ottawa City Council adopt a policy regarding languages of services is MANDATED by provincial law. Three, it is no surprise that you don't get how Westminster-type elected bodies work.

To bad you cannot differentiate between a private business supplying a public service to majority English customers and councillors dictating a minority language sign law that favours a minority unofficial language.

And I am glad you lack the capacity to read. The City of Toronto MANDATE that taxi drivers be able to speak English. Some BC municipalities MANDATE that English be included on business sides. That's part of municipal powers to regulate business. Anjd cities are NOT private businesses.

Ottawa's bilingual policy was not the business of mere city councillors. Their job duties were posted before, like fixing potholes and not involving themselves in a divisive language policy.

Ottawa's language policies pertain to how municipal services are to be delivered, and to the internal working of the City services. Last time I checked, how a municipality delivers it services is the business of the municipal council.

If Mc.Guinty allowed this bilingual policy, then he is another politician mimicking corrupt, undemocratic federal style bilingualism in a possible illegal manner. This is saying to date, no one has challenged Ontario Premier Mc.Guinty's decision to unilaterally accept the decision of a bilingual policy decided unilaterally by Ottawa city councillors.

First, as I stated before, the McGuinty Government MANDATED that the City of Ottawa adopt a policy regarding languages of service. Second, the City had adopted such a policy in 2002, while Mike HARRIS was Premier, and the Harris government didn't oppose it, among other things because there was nothing in provincial legislation preventing it. Third, there was a legal challenge to the municipal policy, arguing that it was discriminatory and that the City did not have the legal right to adopt such a policy; the plaintiffs won in the Ontario Superior Court in 2006 At least try to get your facts straight, will you?

Edited July 18, 2008 by CANADIEN

[CANADIEN]

And premier Liberal Dalton Mc.Guinty did allow Ottawa's racist bilingual policy something that Mike Harris never did when he was premier of Ontario. He knew it was a racist policy and no racist policy was necessary for the city of Ottawa and therefore Mr. Harris never approved it.

Someone who wants English-only language policies, and argues that "white" culture is superior call other people racists. Talk about the pot (you) calling the kettle black.

And here are two questions even you can answer right:

- who was Premier when the city of Ottawa adopted a policy on the language of municipal services in 2002?

- who was Premier before the amalgamation, when the City of Ottawa, the town of Vanier and the Regional Municipality of Ottawa-Carleton were offering some services in French?

the answer to those questions is not Dalton McGuinty.

[Leafless]

Someone who wants English-only language policies, and argues that "white" culture is superior call other people racists. Talk about the pot (you) calling the kettle black.

I will call you a liar, as you did not quote where you claim I said the White culture is superior.

And here are two questions even you can answer right:

- who was Premier when the city of Ottawa adopted a policy on the language of municipal services in 2002?

- who was Premier before the amalgamation, when the City of Ottawa, the town of Vanier and the Regional Municipality of Ottawa-Carleton were offering some services in French?

the answer to those questions is not Dalton McGuinty.

Your questions relating to a racist language policy are irrelevant especially relating to the way that policy was imposed on resident tax payers of the City of Ottawa, Ontario, who are burdened with the huge financial amount to support that racist policy.

Although by nature Ottawa's bilingual policy is official, no Ontario premier to date has declared Ottawa's bilingual policy as being provincially enshrined.

In 2003, the Liberal Party of Ontario returned to power at the provincial level, and the new Premier, Dalton McGuinty, publicly stated that the city should be designated bilingual in the Act. Rather than reignite the controversy through a designation, however, the province ultimately announced amendments to the Act in 2004 (which came into force in 2005) to require the city of Ottawa to have a policy respecting its use of French and English. City council revised its bilingualism policy in 2004.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilingualism_in_Ottawa

[CANADIEN]

I will call you a liar, as you did not quote where you claim I said the White culture is superior.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilingualism_in_Ottawa

So now you are so confused about you own opinions you don't even know what everybody knows just by reading your drivel, which is that you believe "white" culture to be superior to others. You may skirt the word "superior", but the meaning is unescapable.

Instead of calling other people liars for stating an evidence, stick to claiming that I support things by calling them a p*le of manure.

[CANADIEN]

Your questions relating to a racist language policy are irrelevant especially relating to the way that policy was imposed on resident tax payers of the City of Ottawa, Ontario, who are burdened with the huge financial amount to support that racist policy.

Although by nature Ottawa's bilingual policy is official, no Ontario premier to date has declared Ottawa's bilingual policy as being provincially enshrined.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilingualism_in_Ottawa

It's relevant when it shows your lack of understanding of facts.

And the fact the Ottawa bilingual policy is provincially mandated is enough to make it legal.

[Leafless]

So now you are so confused about you own opinions you don't even know what everybody knows just by reading your drivel, which is that you believe "white" culture to be superior to others. You may skirt the word "superior", but the meaning is unescapable.

Instead of calling other people liars for stating an evidence, stick to claiming that I support things by calling them a p*le of manure.

I am calling you a liar as you still have failed to quote what I actually said and are applying words that are untrue.

Be a man and post what I actually said.

You are drowning in your own horse manure.

[Leafless]

It's relevant when it shows your lack of understanding of facts.

And the fact the Ottawa bilingual policy is provincially mandated is enough to make it legal.

Any official policy is already legal.

I suppose the next thing you are going to claim is that Ottawa Francophones had nothing to do with lobbying or demanding the Ontario provincial government to designate Ontario 'officially bilingual' or have Ottawa's bilingual policy provincially enshrined.

The Ontario provincial government did not mandate Ottawa's bilingual policy.

The provincial government of the time, lead by the Progressive Conservative Party of Ontario, refused to enshrine official bilingualism in the City of Ottawa Act, but made clear that the new city was free to establish its own language policy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilingualism_in_Ottawa

And the method how it was established is deplorable and is comparable to Zimbabwe’s Robert Mugabe type politics.

Edited July 18, 2008 by Leafless

[guyser]

Robert Mugabe type politics.

What? Hitler was busy today?