Culture of Fear- Toronto Public Schools

[Moxie]

This is true. And mixed income co-ops do a lot to encourage the type of mixing you're describing.

The most successful communities I've worked in were of the mixed varity, there is a level of pride in the community that helps it avoid what is happening in slums and racial enclaves.

[Michael Hardner]

The most successful communities I've worked in were of the mixed varity, there is a level of pride in the community that helps it avoid what is happening in slums and racial enclaves.

I agree with you, Moxie.

There's a wonderful in development like this in downtown Toronto that illustrates the point. However, such developments do not happen naturally, they take a lot of civic involvement and investment.

As you have indicated, though, the returns are there.

[Oleg Bach]

I agree with you, Moxie.

There's a wonderful in development like this in downtown Toronto that illustrates the point. However, such developments do not happen naturally, they take a lot of civic involvement and investment.

As you have indicated, though, the returns are there.

You can't really engineer a good environment. Real neigbourhoods and their success are not in existance because of "pride" (a lawn that looks like a golf green)..It really depends on how many intelligent people there are on the block - toss in a few poor stupid people and they will behave themselves - even the drug addicts at the end of my street are extremely polite and well behaved - because there is an intelligent presence..There are a couple of film producers - movie tech types - a former big shot speech writer - and your usual token crown attorney and a sprinkling of gay lawyers - and at the other end of the street is a "school of last resort" - opposite end - a crack house and a very nice inter city first nations school - I really like the hood...like I said - it's a good mix and it happend naturally without governmental planning.

[Michael Hardner]

Olech - that is exactly what mixed income co-ops do.

[Oleg Bach]

Olech - that is exactly what mixed income co-ops do.

I know that. "Co-ops" are dreary and are institutionalized and have a smelly commie air to them. What I was describing was a natural evolution of co-habitation that works-- and no one knows who is poor and who is not. PRIVACEY and respect is maintained on my street - we do not know the deep personal goings on in private house holds...so their is less preditorial behaviour seeing we keep our weaknesses to our selves...and spell my name right - it's Oleg - not Olech...well actually that's accurate - I am oleg alec..so you mix them...nice. Back on track. . . . Never like the idea of co-operative houseing - and the idea of subsidized developments of nice shacks stuck in the middle of up scale subdivisions has a very dreary ghetto feel to them - no matter how clean.

[Muddy]

I was listening to a left wing politician describling how awfull the people have to live in such squaler in low cost public houseing. This was her excuse for the people turning to gangs and crime. Unfortunately nobody asked her why the houseing is run down! I can remember when Regent Park was first built. Beautiful for the time. Around 1950 if memorey serves me. Then the apartments and town houses in the Jane finch area.Beautiful and landscaped. They are all run down now and regent Park is being bulldozed.Why? Poor building construction? No it`s pride of ownership is what it is. In my neighbourhood we have homes over a hundred years old.Gosh, we should be the downtrodden should we not? Wait a minute ,maybe it has something to do with pride and a sence of ownership. You think! In these gettoes there is no pride of community or any reason to keep up ones property because they don`t own it. To keep your kids and your neibourhood kids in line is not a priority. If kids in our neighbourhood are being michevious or endangering themselves or others,or destroying property, I and my neighbours will challenge the little dears. I WILL CALL YOUR FATHER or MOTHER ON YOU! This gets results. Why?

[Moxie]

No pride in one's community leads to a slum enviroment, we can't force people to have pride in their communities. Sadly they have been tought to scream I'm entitled when they need something. It never occurs to them to work as a group to improve their lives, they want the government to handle life's little messes.

[Michael Hardner]

Well of course, they have many problems which is why they are where they are.

[Moxie]

Rubbish, we all have the power within us to improve our lot in life. It's a life style choice not a community punitive sentence. Throwing pots of money at a section of society who wears a cloak of "Victimhood" is an excuse not a reason.

[Peter F]

Rubbish, we all have the power within us to improve our lot in life. It's a life style choice not a community punitive sentence. Throwing pots of money at a section of society who wears a cloak of "Victimhood" is an excuse not a reason.

all reasons are excuses.

[Michael Hardner]

Rubbish, we all have the power within us to improve our lot in life. It's a life style choice not a community punitive sentence. Throwing pots of money at a section of society who wears a cloak of "Victimhood" is an excuse not a reason.

Moxie,

You're looking at a group of people who have made poor choices as well as having poor circumstances to begin with, and asking "why don't they have pride in their community ?". Look, they have a lot more pressing concerns than keeping their porch painted.

Throwing money at problems doesn't solve them, but neither does spending zero on problems as a rule.

[guyser]

Moxie,

You're looking at a group of people who have made poor choices as well as having poor circumstances to begin with, and asking "why don't they have pride in their community ?". Look, they have a lot more pressing concerns than keeping their porch painted.

Not to mention the fact that many do have pride in the community and take great pains to improve the look of, and feel of that neighbourhood, only ot be foiled by the 3%'ers that wreck it all. The circle keeps going, pride, planting nice flowers, painting, only to return in the morning to no flowers, spray paint vandalism and the circle continues.

That circle can be expensive, and money is in short supply. The community is still valid and proud, although it may not look it come morning.

[M.Dancer]

I'm getting so old I can remember when the 3%ers used to be called the 1%ers....

Edited January 16, 2008 by M.Dancer

[guyser]

I'm getting so old I can remember when the 3%ers used to be called the 1%ers....

LOL!

Do your kids move your walker when you arent looking? Or does frustration reign when you are putting on the Depends...........

only to have your wife say those are Pampers?

( must I insert a smiley?)

[Muddy]

Not to mention the fact that many do have pride in the community and take great pains to improve the look of, and feel of that neighbourhood, only ot be foiled by the 3%'ers that wreck it all. The circle keeps going, pride, planting nice flowers, painting, only to return in the morning to no flowers, spray paint vandalism and the circle continues.

That circle can be expensive, and money is in short supply. The community is still valid and proud, although it may not look it come morning.

If they had pride in their community the real men,Fathers ,Uncles big Brothers would kick some butt of the punks who destroy any attempt to vandalize the community. Nope! Dissolve public houseing. A suggestion would be,is to allow individuals who live there an opportunity to gain ownership of what is now a slum . Ownership will give pride and will keep kids in line.

[guyser]

If they had pride in their community the real men,Fathers ,Uncles big Brothers would kick some butt of the punks who destroy any attempt to vandalize the community. Nope! Dissolve public houseing. A suggestion would be,is to allow individuals who live there an opportunity to gain ownership of what is now a slum . Ownership will give pride and will keep kids in line.

If that were doable I would concur.

At what cost? The circle would continue

[Muddy]

If that were doable I would concur.

At what cost? The circle would continue

Make a workable plan to get residents to buy their hovel from the government with but a token down payment. Several things might happen. They would have to take responsibility for the upkeep of THEIR property instead of the taxpayer. Next ,after spending THEIR own money on repairs ,flowers ,grass etc they would then protect THEIR property and also THEIR neighbours who are giving it a College try. Otherwise we will end up bulldozing and rebuilding to create more slums and more breeding grounds for criminal behaviour.

Something has to change, or just bulldoze and disperse the inhabitants.

[guyser]

Make a workable plan to get residents to buy their hovel from the government with but a token down payment. Several things might happen.

Well several things would happen.

The cost to buy could be , say for a two bdrm "condo" , somewhere in the $200,000+ neighbourhood. How could they afford that?

The city would be losing a ton of profitable land and that would upset the rest of the city.

Then the people would sell out as the prices rise, so in effect the city has given them a very nice gift. All profit, very little risk.

Thats for starters.

[M.Dancer]

Well several things would happen.

The cost to buy could be , say for a two bdrm "condo" , somewhere in the $200,000+ neighbourhood. How could they afford that?

The city would be losing a ton of profitable land and that would upset the rest of the city.

Then the people would sell out as the prices rise, so in effect the city has given them a very nice gift. All profit, very little risk.

Thats for starters.

I grew up in veterans housing owned by CMHC. They were quads with 2up and 2 down. After my family had lived there for 18 years, the houses were offered for sale with those living there longest having first right of refusal.

Even though we (the neighbourhood) all rented, we had front lawns, back lawns etc etc, which were ours to maintain. We grew apples trees, tomatoes..etc etc, and everyone with maybe an exception or two treated the flats as if they were their own. (one went so far as to remodel the flat, turning a 4 bedroom into a 3....). We finished basements, put up our own fences.....

When they sold, they went between 16K and 18K. Former renters now became landlords.

Edited January 17, 2008 by M.Dancer

[guyser]

I grew up in veterans housing owned by CMHC. They were quads with 2up and 2 down. After my family had lived there for 18 years, the houses were offered for sale with those living there longest having first right of refusal.

Even though we (the neighbourhood) all rented, we had front lawns, back lawns etc etc, which were ours to maintain. We grew apples trees, tomatoes..etc etc, and everyone with maybe an exception or two treated the flats as if they were their own. (one went so far as to remodel the flat, turning a 4 bedroom into a 3....). We finished basements, put up our own fences.....

When they sold, they went between 16K and 18K. Former renters now became landlords.

Downsview?

[M.Dancer]

Downsview?

Montreal North (Montreal Nord)