GST Ads

[geoffrey]

That's the group that benefits from the transit pass credit, which you dismissed.

Good point. That's nearly $1000 in tax credits in a year in most centres. Targetted specifically at low income.

[capricorn]

For the same price, between reducing the GST OR increasing the GST rebate & cutting income taxes, which do you think would help the poor more??

Who do you mean by the poor?

No, but they might lose sleep if that GST cut which benefits the person buying a new car is the reason why income taxes were not cut (or actually increased) or the GST rebate was not increased. Especially if they are struggling to pay rent & buy groceries.

That's really stretching it. It's inconceivable the government would develop a policy based on that reasoning. Please stay within the probable.

To you, yes. Others might think the Liberal spending decisions are well-founded.

And so they might. Vive la difference.

[gc1765]

That's the group that benefits from the transit pass credit, which you dismissed.

I have said numerous times that I think the transit pass credit is a great idea.

I guess they only really lose sleep if they listen to partisan propaganda as opposed to looking at everything the Harper Government has done for them.

This thread is about the GST, not any other policies. If you want to start a thread about the transit tax credit, I'll be there giving my support - as I have always supported the transit tax credit. But if we are talking about the GST, I think it is a bad policy, especially when it comes to helping the poor. Just because the government has done a few things right is no reason not to criticize them when they do something wrong, don't you think??

[gc1765]

Who do you mean by the poor?

How about the people who work hard but only make minimum wage? Say in the $15-$20K a year range. Which policy do you think helps these people the most?

That's really stretching it. It's inconceivable the government would develop a policy based on that reasoning. Please stay within the probable.

What are you talking about? If the Conservatives hadn't cut the GST, they could have decreased income taxes (rather than increasing them), or increased the GST rebate etc...

[capricorn]

How about the people who work hard but only make minimum wage? Say in the $15-$20K a year range. Which policy do you think helps these people the most?

Harper cut the GST and reduced personal income taxes, and both these moves benefit those in that wage group. No?

What are you talking about? If the Conservatives hadn't cut the GST, they could have decreased income taxes (rather than increasing them), or increased the GST rebate etc...

The way you worded your post, it seemed that you were suggesting this was a deliberate choice by the government, i.e. reducing the GST to benefit high income earners, hence low income earners would be upset if they were aware of it. That's what I understood. If not, please clarify.

[jdobbin]

But if we are talking about the GST, I think it is a bad policy, especially when it comes to helping the poor. Just because the government has done a few things right is no reason not to criticize them when they do something wrong, don't you think??

The GST cut was a populist move. It seems unlikely that any economist advised that it was the best tax cut available for the government to make.

Don Drummond was pretty succinct a few months ago about it.

http://www.thestar.com/article/275586

The economic benefit of a 2 percentage point GST cut was summed up by Don Drummond, chief economist of the TD Financial Group: "It doesn't do anything to improve the performance of the economy."

The Liberals would do well to propose further income tax cut in their next election platform.

[Michael Bluth]

For the same price, between reducing the GST OR increasing the GST rebate & cutting income taxes, which do you think would help the poor more??

You set up the choice but ...

This thread is about the GST, not any other policies.

So when you are trying to support your point you feel it is appropriate to discuss other policies. But when it comes to positive Conservative policies on income taxes they aren't what this "thread" is about?

Why the double-standard? Unable to make a coherent argument on a level playing field?

At least you are shying away from the inflammatory language so it's a step in the right direction.

Edited January 6, 2008 by Michael Bluth

[gc1765]

Harper cut the GST and reduced personal income taxes, and both these moves benefit those in that wage group. No?

No, he raised income taxes, then lowered them back to what they were before.

The way you worded your post, it seemed that you were suggesting this was a deliberate choice by the government, i.e. reducing the GST to benefit high income earners, hence low income earners would be upset if they were aware of it. That's what I understood. If not, please clarify.

Huh? I'm saying low income earners would be better off with an income tax cut or an increase in the GST rebate, rather than a GST cut which benefits the rich.

[gc1765]

The GST cut was a populist move. It seems unlikely that any economist advised that it was the best tax cut available for the government to make.

Very true. It seems the vast majority of economists agree that a reduction in income taxes would have been better: Link

[gc1765]

So when you are trying to support your point you feel it is appropriate to discuss other policies. But when it comes to positive Conservative policies on income taxes they aren't what this "thread" is about?

What on earth are you talking about? I am comparing a GST cut to an increase in the GST rebate and/or income tax reductions. The original topic was about GST ads. It's normal for threads to drift a bit, for example from GST ads to the GST itself. But I don't see how GST ads are related to the transit tax credit? Nonetheless, the thread somehow drifted in that direction and I said I supported it, so where's the problem?

At least you are shying away from the inflammatory language so it's a step in the right direction.

If you have a problem with the language I use, please feel free to report it to the moderator. I don't think it was inflammatory at all, certainly not as inflammatory as some of the language you use.

[capricorn]

No, he raised income taxes, then lowered them back to what they were before.

Canadians are now beginning to receive attractive income tax refunds. Harper lowered personal income tax and IMO other tax cuts are coming.

Huh? I'm saying low income earners would be better off with an income tax cut or an increase in the GST rebate, rather than a GST cut which benefits the rich.

O.K. I feel no envy or jealousy toward the rich who also get a GST cut. More (purchasing) power to them.

[Michael Bluth]

What on earth are you talking about? I am comparing a GST cut to an increase in the GST rebate and/or income tax reductions. The original topic was about GST ads. It's normal for threads to drift a bit, for example from GST ads to the GST itself. But I don't see how GST ads are related to the transit tax credit? Nonetheless, the thread somehow drifted in that direction and I said I supported it, so where's the problem?

So you get to decide which level of thread drift is appropriate?

You used the analogy of a hypothetical 'poor Canadaian' losing sleep. Barely plausible, and only if you place them in a vacuum.

I tried to work with your analogy and provide the overall package of tax cuts which somebody would be best off considering if they really are going to lose sleep over any policy in isolation.

If you have a problem with the language I use, please feel free to report it to the moderator. I don't think it was inflammatory at all, certainly not as inflammatory as some of the language you use.

Why not just behave respectfully?

Is that so much to ask for?

[gc1765]

...and IMO other tax cuts are coming.

Maybe, but the fact is that without the GST cut, income taxes could be cut much more

[Michael Bluth]

Maybe, but the fact is that without the GST cut, income taxes could be cut much more

Go ahead and propose to raise the GST Liberals. Please, we implore you to do so!

Edited January 6, 2008 by Michael Bluth

[gc1765]

I tried to work with your analogy and provide the overall package of tax cuts which somebody would be best off considering if they really are going to lose sleep over any policy in isolation.

What if the transit tax credit is not enough? What if they wanted a larger tax cut, but didn't get it because the GST was cut instead?

Why not just behave respectfully?

I believe I am behaving respectfully, but again, if you think otherwise please feel free to report it.

[gc1765]

Go ahead and propose to raise the GST Liberals.

Personally I think it wouldn't be worth the hassle to raise it again - and I think the Liberals will probably think the same thing. Especially if the Conservatives were back in power again and reduced it again. Imagine having to constantly change the GST depending on which party was in power. Imagine how much money would be wasted on ads constantly telling people the GST was going up or down. That being said I still think it was a stupid policy, just as Dion thought it was a stupid policy.

[jdobbin]

Very true. It seems the vast majority of economists agree that a reduction in income taxes would have been better:

From the Globe report there was not one economist who thought the GST was a better cut than others in terms of helping the economy.

[Michael Bluth]

What if the transit tax credit is not enough? What if they wanted a larger tax cut, but didn't get it because the GST was cut instead?

Just as there are some people who wanted the GST removed all together. This Government is working for all Canadians in a positive manner.

I believe I am behaving respectfully, but again, if you think otherwise please feel free to report it.

I'm just asking you to recognize that your language was not in the spirit of the rules of the board.

The term was inflammatory and thankfully nobody jumped to your bait.

Responding with "report it" isn't working in a spirit of openness and encouraging debate on the board.

We are grown adults here, and most of us behave as such.

[capricorn]

From the Globe report there was not one economist who thought the GST was a better cut than others in terms of helping the economy.

That's all well and good, yet the health of the economy does not revolve around the GST.

I think Liberals cannot stand the fact that reducing the GST was done by Conservatives and not by Liberals. A related reason for Liberal discontent is that the majority of Canadians are thrilled by the GST cut.

[Michael Bluth]

I think Liberals cannot stand the fact that reducing the GST was done by Conservatives and not by Liberals. A related reason for Liberal discontent is that the majority of Canadians are thrilled by the GST cut.

That is the truly telling part about the whole argument.

The party that lead a campaign against the GST, campaigned on an eventually broken promise of cutting the GST is now taking issue with cutting it?

Doesn't seem like there is any consistency or rationale to the Liberal party's multiple position. All are based on opposing the government no matter what it is or what they do.

[jdobbin]

That's all well and good, yet the health of the economy does not revolve around the GST.

I think Liberals cannot stand the fact that reducing the GST was done by Conservatives and not by Liberals. A related reason for Liberal discontent is that the majority of Canadians are thrilled by the GST cut.

I'm not sure what majority you are referring to. Do you have polling numbers on that compared to how they would have felt with an income tax cut?

Taxation does have an impact on the health of an economy. What the economists agreed on (all 20 of them) in the Globe is that the GST does nothing to help the economy in a slowdown as we expect in 2008.

I never agreed with Chretien's election campaign of getting rid of the GST. I thought it was bluster and have long pushed for income tax cuts.

My initial opposition to the GST was that it was going to be an expensive tax to administer. It is. I was also suspicious of the possibility that governments would tax the tax. They do. Having said that, I knew that the manufacturer's sales tax of 17% was a terrible tax and that a lower federal sales tax over many products was a better tax.

Edited January 6, 2008 by jdobbin

[jdobbin]

The GST cut also precludes other tax decreases this year as even Harper has been admitting.

http://www.thestar.com/comment/article/290804

Back in November, which in economic forecasters' time already seems like an eternity ago, Finance Minister Jim Flaherty presented a fairly sanguine outlook for the year ahead. For 2008, he saw growth moderating just a little, from 2.5 per cent last year to 2.4 per cent.

Turns out he was far too optimistic.

Yet, carrying over that unwarranted sense of optimism into his fiscal projections, Flaherty also boosted the projected surplus for this year almost fivefold – from the $3 billion figure in his spring budget to a whopping $13.8 billion in his fall economic statement.

He then applied almost the entire windfall to tax cuts, frittering away a full two-thirds of the projected surplus on the Conservatives' second percentage point cut in the Goods and Services Tax in as many years.

But now that Flaherty has almost emptied Ottawa's coffers with his cumulative two-percentage-point, $12 billion GST extravaganza, private forecasters are yet again marking down their growth projections for 2008. For example, TD Economics, which is the highly respected forecasting arm of the TD Bank, last month knocked one-half of a percentage point off Flaherty's November growth projection with a warning that "the risks (of recession) have become acute."

Edited January 7, 2008 by jdobbin

[gc1765]

I'm just asking you to recognize that your language was not in the spirit of the rules of the board.

My mistake. I shouldn't have used the word "wild" when describing the recent spending spree - that is obviously a naughty word. I should have used a synonym instead. I should have described the spending spree as: eager, enthusiastic, extravagant, foolish, imprudent, incautious, loose, uncontrolled, undisciplined, unfettered, and unrestrained.

My apologies to anyone who was offended by the use of the word "wild".

[capricorn]

I'm not sure what majority you are referring to. Do you have polling numbers on that compared to how they would have felt with an income tax cut?

No.

Taxation does have an impact on the health of an economy.

I did take Eco101 and received a passing mark.

What the economists agreed on (all 20 of them) in the Globe is that the GST does nothing to help the economy in a slowdown as we expect in 2008.

We'll just have to wait and see what happens in 2008.

I knew that the manufacturer's sales tax of 17% was a terrible tax and that a lower federal sales tax over many products was a better tax.

As I recall, the MST was more like 13.5 or 14%. We agree the GST is preferable to the MST.

[jdobbin]

As I recall, the MST was more like 13.5 or 14%. We agree the GST is preferable to the MST.

On TVs and the electronics and a host of other appliances such as washers and dryers, it ranged up to 17%. The tax was so complicated and had thousands of provisions.