Muslim father chokes daughter to near death

[cybercoma]

Show us the proof that this exists and is a consistent factor of their religious beliefs.

Have you never read a single thing on Sharia Law and how women are treated in Muslim nations? There are also countless "honour killings" on top of women being unfairly stoned to death.

Do you really need me to go to a news source and look up examples?

[charter.rights]

Because when it comes to Islam, women are being murdered when they're raped by men who are not their husbands, they don't wear their burqas or hijabs and they're caught with men of other religions.

To say that these things are not done because of religion is wrong.

Murders, abductions and rapes of women in Canada are mostly done under terms regardless of religion rather than because of it. Except of course, when religion was clearly a factor, as is the case with this thread.

To say that these things are not done because of religion is wrong.

These are ignorant assertions. Prove them first - that they are a regular occurrence - and then we'll discuss it further.

Murders, abductions and rapes of women in Canada are mostly done.....

In many cases they are the product of racial or misogynist reasons that are born in a religious bias against women that underlies our entire society.

[kengs333]

If it is important for the media to publish the religion of Islamic criminals, then it is equally as important to publish the Christian ones...and then perhaps even more important.

Oh, I think that would be very interested if we got back to that kind of thing. First of all, very, very few people who are devout Christians engage in "breaking the law", and if they do, it's probably one of those technicalities of the law which could trap anyone. As for people who are Christian in name only, or perhaps baptized as infants, and who have no interest in being Christian or even claim to not be Christian but are still identified as Christians, what would that prove? Moreover, what if we started ging back to identifying people's race? This is now deliberately not done by the media because it would no doubt incite certain people... If you look at homicides in Toronto: what percentage of the victims and perps are black? What about crime in southcentral Ontario: how many are perpetrated by Indians? Why is it that the article about a farm being robbed on ginseng negates to mention the race of the perps--could it have been because they were Asians? Another thing I wounder about is why when a murder is filmed for a TV program were the two Indian perps portrayed by whites? Maybe this deception is done for a good reason, to keep racial tensions from heating up again, but it also shows how the media fudges the truth and manipulates us unto believing untruths, just like the Nazis and the Soviets used to do.

[kengs333]

Murders, abductions and rapes of women in Canada are mostly done.....

In many cases they are the product of racial or misogynist reasons that are born in a religious bias against women that underlies our entire society.

All of these things were done in Indians societies, as well, so your assertion is simply a product of your hatred of Christianity. One can argue that thanks to Christianity, women have had more human right than they ever had in any pre-Christian society. People like you want to deconstruct this, however, based on some sort of mythical ideal about Indians and the egalitarian societies that they never had.

[capricorn]

Do you really need me to go to a news source and look up examples?

I provided three clear examples to charter in post #514 and he obviously chose to ignore the information. Now charter is asking you to provide same. The question is, why?

[capricorn]

All of these things were done in Indians societies, as well, so your assertion is simply a product of your hatred of Christianity.

kengs, that is the conclusion you draw and I can understand that. Yet, maybe charter is still working this out in his/her own mind, who knows. I would not assign hatred of Christians as the basis of charter's views unless he/she confirmed this is so.

One can argue that thanks to Christianity, women have had more human right than they ever had in any pre-Christian society.

In the case of the Catholic church, I find that the church has relaxed some of its rules to reflect modern times. For example, I can remember when women could not enter a church without a head covering. That rule did not apply to men. I remember as a young girl a nun attaching a kleenex to my hair so that I may accompany our class for prayer in church. Ridiculous, heh? That rule has been revised and women can now enter churches without a head covering. It's all these little things done over the years to encourage the devout not to abandon their faith and the church.

[DogOnPorch]

I provided three clear examples to charter in post #514 and he obviously chose to ignore the information. Now charter is asking you to provide same. The question is, why?

Here's one hot off the press...

Indian police have arrested four men, including one from Surrey, and charged them with conspiracy to murder the father of a young bride in Ludhiana, Punjab.

They have also issued arrest warrants for the woman's husband and his cousin, who live in Surrey.

Police charges allege that the husband and his cousin hired a group of contract killers for 120,000 rupees (about $3,000) after the father of the bride could not raise the dowry for his daughter.

More...

---------------------------------------------

Hari Krishna...Hari Rama...

---Maha Mantra

[capricorn]

Here's one hot off the press...

More...

Thanks for the link DOP. Note the apologist in the comments section who tries to deflect the murderous plot to business as usual.

"Shame on western media for portraying this all as another dowry story. It's not a dowry - it's a payment to get into the beautiful country of Canada. Men equally pay to marry a Canadian women to get into Canada. It happens all the time. Dowry is just a good word to use to get some publicity about it."

Shows how much some people know about the culture of foreign lands.

[charter.rights]

Thanks for the link DOP. Note the apologist in the comments section who tries to deflect the murderous plot to business as usual.

"Shame on western media for portraying this all as another dowry story. It's not a dowry - it's a payment to get into the beautiful country of Canada. Men equally pay to marry a Canadian women to get into Canada. It happens all the time. Dowry is just a good word to use to get some publicity about it."

Shows how much some people know about the culture of foreign lands.

More unintentional irony....

[charter.rights]

Oh, I think that would be very interested if we got back to that kind of thing. First of all, very, very few people who are devout Christians engage in "breaking the law", and if they do, it's probably one of those technicalities of the law which could trap anyone. As for people who are Christian in name only, or perhaps baptized as infants, and who have no interest in being Christian or even claim to not be Christian but are still identified as Christians, what would that prove? Moreover, what if we started ging back to identifying people's race? This is now deliberately not done by the media because it would no doubt incite certain people... If you look at homicides in Toronto: what percentage of the victims and perps are black? What about crime in southcentral Ontario: how many are perpetrated by Indians? Why is it that the article about a farm being robbed on ginseng negates to mention the race of the perps--could it have been because they were Asians? Another thing I wounder about is why when a murder is filmed for a TV program were the two Indian perps portrayed by whites? Maybe this deception is done for a good reason, to keep racial tensions from heating up again, but it also shows how the media fudges the truth and manipulates us unto believing untruths, just like the Nazis and the Soviets used to do.

Hmm...isn;t it interesting that you break crime down based on the race of the perps. How do you know what nationality or "race" they are? And here I thought all along they were just Canadians.....

I'm not sure I've heard about too many Indians in south central Ontario. Last time I heard Punjabi, Hindi and other Indian immigrants tended to migrate to Toronto. Do you have and stats on that?

"....one of those technicalities of the law which could trap anyone." What are you talking about? Are you suggesting that Christians are trapped by crimes such as "public mischief"? for trying to incite people to break the law?

{To Others} I found this quite interesting on one of the networks tonight....

psy·cho·path Function: noun : a mentally ill or unstable person; especially : a person affected with antisocial personality disorder.

The twenty traits assessed by the PCL-R score are:

* glib and superficial charm

* grandiose (exaggeratedly high) estimation of self

* need for stimulation

* pathological lying

* cunning and manipulativeness

* lack of remorse or guilt

* shallow affect(superficial emotional responsiveness)

* callousness and lack of empathy

* parasitic lifestyle

* poor behavioral controls

* sexual promiscuity

* early behavior problems

* lack of realistic long-term goals

* impulsivity

* irresponsibility

* failure to accept responsibility for own actions

* many short-term marital relationships

* juvenile delinquency

* revocation of conditional release

* criminal versatility

Hare Psychopathy Test

These things are weighted and score and anyone with 30 of a total of 40 points can be considered a full fledged psychopath. I know someone who fits these personality disorder traits to a "T"....

[jbg]

Show us the proof that this exists and is a consistent factor of their religious beliefs.

I provided three clear examples to charter in post #514 and he obviously chose to ignore the information. Now charter is asking you to provide same. The question is, why?

I would point him here (link):

Excerpts below from site linked above:

List of Islamic Terror Attacks For the Past 2 Months (Cut short at Christmas by poster):

Date Country City Killed Injured Description

12/29/2007 Somalia Mogadishu 1 0 A 17-year-old Islamic militant plants a bomb that kills a former mayor's deputy.

12/28/2007 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 A local cop is gunned down by religious extremists.

12/28/2007 Iraq Baghdad 14 64 Jihadis murder fourteen Iraqis with a car bomb.

12/28/2007 Israel Hebron 2 1 Two young Israeli hikers are gunned down by Palestinian terrorists.

12/28/2007 Somalia Siinka Dheer 2 0 Two local soldiers are shot to death by Islamic gunmen.

12/28/2007 Pakistan Manglore 4 4 Four people are blown to bits by an Islamist bombing.

12/27/2007 Mauritania El Ghallawiya 3 0 Three local soldiers are killed by suspected Islamic militants in an ambush.

12/27/2007 Somalia Bakara 1 4 Islamic militias kill one civilian in a grenade attack.

12/27/2007 Pakistan Rawalpindi 23 50 A suicide attack kills former prime minister Benazir Bhutto and at least twenty supporters along a city street.

12/27/2007 Iraq Baghdad 2 12 Jihadis blast a minibus with a roadside bomb, killing two civilians.

12/27/2007 Pakistan Kurram 27 42 Sectarian violence between Sunni and Shia leaves another two dozen dead.

12/26/2007 Thailand Pattani 3 0 Islamic terrorists use children in a school as human shields to ambush a group of local soldiers, killing three.

12/26/2007 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 A 49-year-old man is shot to death in a drive-by shooting by Muslim militants.

12/26/2007 Pakistan Kurrum 32 40 Thirty-two people are killed in clashes between Sunni and Shia rivals.

12/26/2007 Iraq Mosul 3 2 Jihadis plant a bomb in a garbage pile, killing three children.

12/26/2007 Iraq Diyala 17 0 Seventeen al-Qaeda victims are found shot in the back of the head.

12/26/2007 Pakistan Sadda 25 26 Another two dozen people are killed, as the Taliban sets fire to villagers in a sectarian dispute.

12/25/2007 Iraq Baqubah 10 21 A suspected al-Qaeda suicide bomber attacks a funeral, killing ten mourners.

12/25/2007 Iraq Baiji 29 80 Nearly thirty Iraqis are blown apart by a suicidal Sunni along a city street.

12/25/2007 Afghanistan Kandahar 1 4 Taliban extremists detonate explosives, killing one civilian.

Edited December 31, 2007 by jbg

[charter.rights]

I would point him here (link):

Excerpts below from site linked above:

List of Islamic Terror Attacks For the Past 2 Months (Cut short at Christmas by poster):

Date Country City Killed Injured Description

12/29/2007 Somalia Mogadishu 1 0 A 17-year-old Islamic militant plants a bomb that kills a former mayor's deputy.

12/28/2007 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 A local cop is gunned down by religious extremists.

12/28/2007 Iraq Baghdad 14 64 Jihadis murder fourteen Iraqis with a car bomb.

12/28/2007 Israel Hebron 2 1 Two young Israeli hikers are gunned down by Palestinian terrorists.

12/28/2007 Somalia Siinka Dheer 2 0 Two local soldiers are shot to death by Islamic gunmen.

12/28/2007 Pakistan Manglore 4 4 Four people are blown to bits by an Islamist bombing.

12/27/2007 Mauritania El Ghallawiya 3 0 Three local soldiers are killed by suspected Islamic militants in an ambush.

12/27/2007 Somalia Bakara 1 4 Islamic militias kill one civilian in a grenade attack.

12/27/2007 Pakistan Rawalpindi 23 50 A suicide attack kills former prime minister Benazir Bhutto and at least twenty supporters along a city street.

12/27/2007 Iraq Baghdad 2 12 Jihadis blast a minibus with a roadside bomb, killing two civilians.

12/27/2007 Pakistan Kurram 27 42 Sectarian violence between Sunni and Shia leaves another two dozen dead.

12/26/2007 Thailand Pattani 3 0 Islamic terrorists use children in a school as human shields to ambush a group of local soldiers, killing three.

12/26/2007 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 A 49-year-old man is shot to death in a drive-by shooting by Muslim militants.

12/26/2007 Pakistan Kurrum 32 40 Thirty-two people are killed in clashes between Sunni and Shia rivals.

12/26/2007 Iraq Mosul 3 2 Jihadis plant a bomb in a garbage pile, killing three children.

12/26/2007 Iraq Diyala 17 0 Seventeen al-Qaeda victims are found shot in the back of the head.

12/26/2007 Pakistan Sadda 25 26 Another two dozen people are killed, as the Taliban sets fire to villagers in a sectarian dispute.

12/25/2007 Iraq Baqubah 10 21 A suspected al-Qaeda suicide bomber attacks a funeral, killing ten mourners.

12/25/2007 Iraq Baiji 29 80 Nearly thirty Iraqis are blown apart by a suicidal Sunni along a city street.

12/25/2007 Afghanistan Kandahar 1 4 Taliban extremists detonate explosives, killing one civilian.

The majority of these cases appear to be freedom fighters fighting for political reasons. Can you provide absolute confirmation that their religion MADE them do it? Or are you just grasping at straws?

I could easily turn the tables and point to the Christian soldiers in Iraq who have bombed shot and butchered innocent citizens in support of GW's illegal war. Is that what you want?

[jbg]

The majority of these cases appear to be freedom fighters fighting for political reasons. Can you provide absolute confirmation that their religion MADE them do it? Or are you just grasping at straws?

If anyone's grasping at straws it's you. I mean, "plant(ing) a bomb in a garbage pile"?

I could easily turn the tables and point to the Christian soldiers in Iraq who have bombed shot and butchered innocent citizens in support of GW's illegal war. Is that what you want?

Oh yes, every day, US Christian and Jewish soldiers bomb schools, mosques, garbage piles? Puh-lease.

[capricorn]

I could easily turn the tables and point to the Christian soldiers in Iraq who have bombed shot and butchered innocent citizens in support of GW's illegal war.

Please, do turn the tables and post the link(s) that demonstrate(s) that (US?) "Christian" soldiers in Iraq are bombing and butchering innocent civilians. If you are unable to do so then I will categorize your comment as a rant and file it as such. You know, file 13.

Earlier, I provided links that illustrated that religious culture was the motivator for murder and atrocities, and you chose to ignore the information presented to you. What exactly is it that you are looking for here?

[charter.rights]

Please, do turn the tables and post the link(s) that demonstrate(s) that (US?) "Christian" soldiers in Iraq are bombing and butchering innocent civilians. If you are unable to do so then I will categorize your comment as a rant and file it as such. You know, file 13.

Earlier, I provided links that illustrated that religious culture was the motivator for murder and atrocities, and you chose to ignore the information presented to you. What exactly is it that you are looking for here?

815,000 Iraqis killed, 1,504,723 Injured.

12, 072 Afghanis killed. 26,434 Injured.

Unknown News

According to a number of reports the numbers of dead and injured are mostly due to air strikes (of course by American and Canadian coalition forces, most of whom are Christians)

In the war alone, more Muslims have been killed by Christians than vice versa. And I would say having arms, legs and heads blown off by bombs is far worse than someone exacting capital punishment by decapitation (under their law). But I'm just like that. I prefer rule of law over rule of war any day as a way to "civilize" people.

Edited December 31, 2007 by charter.rights

[Argus]

The crime stats in Canada are public domain. You can go to stats can and see them for yourself. Violence against women arises in ALL religious fundemantalist groups. Its not particular to Islam.

Perhaps it is not unique but they take it to a whole different level of fanaticism and brutality.

Or are you going to suggest that Mennonites hang teenage girls if they catch them holding a boy's hand?

[Argus]

Its not peaceful Muslims who are the problem and the problem is they get thrown in with the violent fundamentalists when we don't take the time to make it clear what it is we are criticizing.

I wish people like you would stop whining about "peaceful muslims" and "moderate muslims".

According to the polls almost all Muslims are, by our secular standards, religious fanatics who are not particularly moderate at all.

When we talk about the problems of violence coming from Muslims we're not discussing a tiny aberrant group which is shunned by the whole. We're talking about the cultural value system shared by the majority of Muslims. Why do you think honor killings are so rarely punished in Muslim nations? Because society, as a whole, winks at them. As for terrorists - ie "violent fundamentalists" there might be only a handful with the guns, but there are also a massive number of Muslims standing there cheering them on. The media claimed yesterday that Osama Bin Laden is the most popular man in Pakistan. What does that tell you about the disapproval of violence among Muslims?

[cybercoma]

I would point him here (link):

Excerpts below from site linked above:

List of Islamic Terror Attacks For the Past 2 Months (Cut short at Christmas by poster):

jbg, with all due respect, that really isn't the same thing at all. I would not call them "freedom fighters," as another poster said, but they are involved in a war. Unfortunately, they only have primitive means of fighting, so they do some very barbaric things to lash out.

This is not at all the same thing as men beating down or murdering the women in their family to make things right before God and their communities. The only thing that remains the same is the thinking that there is a God given right to harm others. It is unquestioning faith that has seriously warped the moral compass of these people and their society.

[capricorn]

According to a number of reports the numbers of dead and injured are mostly due to air strikes (of course by American and Canadian coalition forces, most of whom are Christians)

American and Canadian troops are from countries where Christians are in the majority. I suppose those troops are mostly Christians. A supposition will have to do since we don't have hard statistics.

In the war alone, more Muslims have been killed by Christians than vice versa.

More Muslims have been killed by Muslims via murder and genocide than all the Muslims killed by Christians in the two wars.

And I would say having arms, legs and heads blown off by bombs is far worse than someone exacting capital punishment by decapitation (under their law).

No one wants to have either of these experiences. I prefer the enemy be blown to smithereens than decapitating each one individually.

But I'm just like that. I prefer rule of law over rule of war any day as a way to "civilize" people.

There has been war somewhere in the world throughout history and things don't appear to be changing.

[cybercoma]

According to a number of reports the numbers of dead and injured are mostly due to air strikes (of course by American and Canadian coalition forces, most of whom are Christians)

They're not being killed because they're NOT Christian, as is the case with the terror attacks that have been carried out. Save for George Bush making a stupid comment about God telling him to invade Iraq, the reasons for us being in Afghanistan and the US/UK being in Iraq have nothing to do with religion. The terrorists and "Islamofascists," are butchering people for not following their beliefs of God.

The war is not the point though, the point of this thread is honour killings and the abuse of women as a result of religious teachings.

[cybercoma]

I wish people like you would stop whining about "peaceful muslims" and "moderate muslims".

According to the polls almost all Muslims are, by our secular standards, religious fanatics who are not particularly moderate at all.

When we talk about the problems of violence coming from Muslims we're not discussing a tiny aberrant group which is shunned by the whole. We're talking about the cultural value system shared by the majority of Muslims. Why do you think honor killings are so rarely punished in Muslim nations? Because society, as a whole, winks at them. As for terrorists - ie "violent fundamentalists" there might be only a handful with the guns, but there are also a massive number of Muslims standing there cheering them on. The media claimed yesterday that Osama Bin Laden is the most popular man in Pakistan. What does that tell you about the disapproval of violence among Muslims?

This entire point could be summed up in one word, "Denmark."

[Rue]

Perhaps it is not unique but they take it to a whole different level of fanaticism and brutality.

Or are you going to suggest that Mennonites hang teenage girls if they catch them holding a boy's hand?

Why would I argus? Have you seen me engage in any remark where I make negative generalizations about an entire group of people and assign them negative general characterizations based on my subjective preconceptions?

My point remains, violence is present against women in all societities. When men use Islam as a pretext to engage in it they should be exposed and challenged virgoursly and the role of organized Islam in relation to female violence must be brought out in the open. But I say the same of any religion and its role to influencing how men treat women.

Its precisely because I would not suggest all Amish are perverts because some engage in incest is exactly the same reason I won't smeer an entire Islam religion because extremists within one of its societies hang women, etc. If I were to engage in the generalization you want me to make against all Muslims I would have to assume all Christians are violent perverts as well-you think that is helpful for such discourse? You think using such violence to lump millions of people in one negative characteristic is helpful?

Did it ever dawn on you not all Christians are evil and perverted just because they burned people at stakes, tortured them when they would not convert and engaged in blood rituals for centuries? Should I condemn all Christians because Keng claims to be a true Christian?

Come on Argus the point was to challenge such thinking in regards to ALL people not just some.

[Guest American Woman]

Save for George Bush making a stupid comment about God telling him to invade Iraq, the reasons for us being in Afghanistan and the US/UK being in Iraq have nothing to do with religion. The terrorists and "Islamofascists," are butchering people for not following their beliefs of God.

The war is not the point though, the point of this thread is honour killings and the abuse of women as a result of religious teachings.

Bush never said God told him to invade Iraq. That quote has been attributed to him, but he didn't say it.

But yes, this is about honor killings; about men killing daughters/wives for not living up to their religious standards (or in some cases, simply being accused of it). Some people don't seem to get that.

[Rue]

Here is specifically what I challenge in Argus' reasoning as he states;

"I wish people like you would stop whining about "peaceful muslims" and "moderate muslims". According to the polls almost all Muslims are, by our secular standards, religious fanatics who are not particularly moderate at all. "

Of course there are no such polls. It is absurd to suggest an accurate poll of every single Muslim on this planet could be taken to prove "almost all" are fanatical.

What Argus is doing is engaging in a negative generalization of millions upon millions of people he does not know claiming they all can be assigned the same simplistic generalized negative category.

I argue the above is intellectually disingenuine. It attempts to state a subjective assumption as an objective fact when clearly it is not.

He also stated;

"When we talk about the problems of violence coming from Muslims..... we're not discussing a tiny aberrant group which is shunned by the whole... we're talking about the cultural value system shared by the majority of Muslims...."

Now see I do not have a problem if Argus' statement read, " it would appear from what I read or have seen in the media, violence against women in Muslim societies is widespread...."that would clearly indicate he is making a subjective opinion. What I challenge is the statement that there is one monolithic value system shared by a majority of Muslims. I do not doubt in many Muslim societities fundamentalism is a fact, an every day fact and that fuels the kind of violene JBG refers to or Argus is now referring to including violence against females. That is not the issue. Discussing it in a way that does not assume every single Muslim is an evil violent fanatic is the issue. There is a way to speak openly about problems in ANY society without condemning an entire people.

I find such categorization simplistic, inaccurate, and simply inciting hatred and the rationalization for demonizing an entire people. I use this exact same criticism when I see people slur Jews, Christians, gays or anyone else, not just Muslims.

No I will not assume "almost all" Muslims are fanatics. Based on what? Because I watch the North American media which will show negative Muslim stories but not ones of typical every day boring peaceful Muslims? Am I to stereotype an entire people based on the negative some of its people do? Why? How will I reach out to moderate Muslims and forge hopefully peaceful contacts and networks of tolerance if I do as AQrgus says and simply lump them "almost all" as fanatics.

Using Argus' reasoning we may as well go to war now and kill them all. That is no different then the very fundamentalist mentality of the Muslims Argus criticizes. They same the same thing about us-i.e., we are all savages and infidel.

So Argus you want to get into a pissing contest with a Muslim fanatic as to whose pee pee is bigger be my guest. Me I would prefer to sit down with the next generation of Muslims, Hindus, Christians, Jews, whoever and encourage them to ignore the generation before them precisely because of this need to kill and point pee pees at one another.

I would prefer to spend my time with young women teaching them regardless of what culture or religion they come from, anything to do with their body, begins and ends with them as an individual decision and no man in the name of any God or political belief or moral belief has the right to touch them or tell them how to carry their bodies or how to manage their bodies, minds or spirits and even if it is their father or brother, etc., such advise can be stated-but IN THE END it is up to each women to decide how she will use her body and carry herself and define her identity and it should not be predicated on obtaining the approval of men but from within themselves.

I would also say to young men, while my generation is busy destroying the planet with petty ignorance, moral indignation, civil wars and terrorism over pure bull shit pride precisely because of men who have pee pee anxiety or who are busy destroying the planet with toxic waste because once again we humans don't acknowledge anything but our own needs, the next generation must distance itself from us and find ways to get along if it is to preserve what is left of this planet.

See the point is Argus you will be in an old age home soon but what about the next generation? While you raise bloody hell in the home over Mohamed not respecting your ham, maybe just maybe your grandchildren and his have far more serious things they will have to deal with and rely on each other for help to resolve.

There will be clashes as old and new values meet, but the next generations will synthesize them as yours did and those did before yours. Every generation thinks it is the only one where past and future clash in the present but its been going on since humans decided to start f..cking each other and reproduce.

Lol. Yah I know. Liberal b.s.

Edited December 31, 2007 by Rue

[Rue]

Bush never said God told him to invade Iraq. That quote has been attributed to him, but he didn't say it.

But yes, this is about honor killings; about men killing daughters/wives for not living up to their religious standards (or in some cases, simply being accused of it). Some people don't seem to get that.

If it was in fact an honour killing (yet to be proven) which it very much looks like, then that is what must be confronted and questioned including the role any organized religion or cultural values inter-related to it.