Muslim father chokes daughter to near death

[kengs333]

So let me get this straight: you say patriarchal social structures have nothing to do with and then go on to explain that those are the only social structures we have. Can you explain this? Actually, don't. You're a loon.

No, you just don't know how to read.

[cybercoma]

You all clearly missed the point. There may not be a cause and effect relationship between belief in God and crime, etc.; however, kengs is the one who said there was. He said the crime rate among Christians is "low", and clearly by analyzing the data of the world's most prosperous nations, that is NOT the case. Nations, such as the US, with a higher belief in a creator also have a higher crime rate. The only thing that can be concluded from that is that belief in a creator does absolutely nothing to stop crime; therefore, kengs is wrong about crime amongst Christians being lower.

[Guest American Woman]

Nations, such as the US, with a higher belief in a creator also have a higher crime rate. The only thing that can be concluded from that is that belief in a creator does absolutely nothing to stop crime; therefore, kengs is wrong about crime amongst Christians being lower.

If everyone in the United States claimed to be a devout Christian, you'd have a point. But since that isn't the case, you cannot correctly draw the conclusion that "belief in a creator does absolutely nothing to stop crime." You'd have to show statistics regarding how many criminals claimed to be devout Christians at the time they committed their crimes and those statistics would have to show that at least the great majority of them were. Is there any such data? I haven't seen any, and that link/study doesn't give any. As I pointed out, many studies show that Americans are the most giving people in the world. So do you conversely conclude that it's belief in a creator that makes us so generous? I'm guessing you don't.

[kengs333]

You all clearly missed the point. There may not be a cause and effect relationship between belief in God and crime, etc.; however, kengs is the one who said there was. He said the crime rate among Christians is "low", and clearly by analyzing the data of the world's most prosperous nations, that is NOT the case. Nations, such as the US, with a higher belief in a creator also have a higher crime rate. The only thing that can be concluded from that is that belief in a creator does absolutely nothing to stop crime; therefore, kengs is wrong about crime amongst Christians being lower.

Oh, right, now it's being changed from devout Christian to "belief in a creator". Well belief in a "creator" alone does not a Christian make. It's that simple.

Your argument is complete nonsense. You're blaming Christians for the actions of criminals who no doubt do not view themselves as Christian. You should be blaming God-hating, anti-Christian, atheists and moral relativists--but I suppose that could mean that you would in fact have to blame yourself and, of course, there's no way you would ever do such a thing.

[cybercoma]

Guys, I'm not blaming anyone for anything. I'm saying, there's no link to religious belief and crime. If anything there's a correlation between an increase in crime with an increase in religious belief, which would make the statement kengs made wrong. If Christianity and religious belief made crime lower, one would think a nation that had more believers would have less crime, that's not the case. Religion does not necessarily affect crime; however, of the most prosperous nations, those that have higher religious belief also have a higher crime rate. This should probably be examined.

And, since it was requested, the study can be found HERE.

The results of this study do not suggest that religiosity CAUSES dysfunction in society; however, it does show that the presence of religiosity in no way makes society a better place, as kengs suggested.

All I'm saying is that kengs is wrong and I'm providing with the reason as to why.

Edited December 19, 2007 by cybercoma

[AngusThermopyle]

QUOTE

You like to generalize as much as those you criticize. I would say that only a few posters believe what you state, yet you phrase it in such a way as to include any who recognize this situation for what it is. The result of archaic cultural practices.

And from where do those cultural practices flow?

I would have thought the answer would be obvious to you. Where do you think they "flow" from?

Obviously from area's or Nations where such or equivalent practices are the accepted norm.

Why? Did you think these are the normal "flow" of Canadian cultural practices?

I seriously doubt that such cultural practices in places like Clairsholme or Barrie or Dildo or Victoria are accepted as part of our social norm.

[AngusThermopyle]

religiosity

Is that an accepted word nowdays?

I find this whole thread is kinda getting sidetracked into a debate about Christianity...again.

I believe that there was a strong cultural influence involved in this murder. From my point of view religion may have been involved in this act, probably was, but cultural norms and acceptance of behaviour played an equal or greater part. This man was...what...57? So the greater part of his life was spent in a society that either openly, or overtly condoned this sort of display of control.

Believe it or not, there are countries where this is normal. The fact of "honour killings" (should actually be called Dishonour Murders) cannot be disputed. From what I understand this man was raised in such an environment. Is it any surprise that he resorted to what he lived with in his original country? I dont think it's realistic to believe that all people can shed a lifetime of social conditioning with a short time span, just because they moved to another country.

I've travelled extensively. It's hard to understand what these countries are like if you haven't been to places like them. Its almost a feeling in the air, you know that as a male you are superior, woman are subject to you. The signs are both subtle and obvious, the result is an attitude. In the west this attitude still remains, but in a far more dilluted and diminishing form. Thats a good thing. It also makes it very hard for people who have only known this to really understand the cultural influences at play in this act of murder.

So in short I really don't think that any rational person would rule out culture as an important part of what happened.

Also religion. (Sorry, I just couldn't resist )

[eXploiTeD]

Oh, right, which is why the central American civilizations killed thousands at a time in "human sacrifices" or the Godless communists in Russia murdered 30 million in the Gulags...

Yeah, you can deny all you want, but your posts have jenny written all over them. If, as a matter of fact, you are not her, the fact that you have such a similar posting style should in no way be taken as a compliment.

I'm not the one resorting to personal comments and trolling, keng. You ever heard "hate the sin, not the sinner?" Maybe you should approach people who disagree with you like that "bud."

Central American civilizations operated under a fanatical religious mindset, sometimes monotheistic, sometimes not.

The Soviet Union is an exception, I don't deny that. It also makes sense when looking at history on a macro level... what comes up, must come down, and when religion was replaced by the State and Big Business as people's means of uniting with one another... well... they responded with actions like the Holocaust, or the Red Revolution...

But again, it's an exception.

Edited December 19, 2007 by eXploiTeD

[capricorn]

Angus said: It also makes it very hard for people who have only known this to really understand the cultural influences at play in this act of murder.

It also makes it very hard to come to any conclusion whatsoever without knowing all the evidence. All we have at the present time is hearsay, i.e. statements by the poor girl's classmates. What if the father had an undisclosed mental illness? What if the daughter knew something about the father and threatened to disclose it? What if, what if? At this point, all our speculation is just that, speculation.

Edited December 19, 2007 by capricorn

[cybercoma]

So in short I really don't think that any rational person would rule out culture as an important part of what happened.

Also religion. (Sorry, I just couldn't resist )

It's just my opinion, but it would appear that religion has crafted that culture.

[AngusThermopyle]

It's just my opinion, but it would appear that religion has crafted that culture.

Well...its just my opinion too...but I agree with you.

[AngusThermopyle]

What if the father had an undisclosed mental illness? What if the daughter knew something about the father and threatened to disclose it? What if, what if? At this point, all our speculation is just that, speculation

And what if pigs could fly?

Your statement is a blatant rationalization. I'm not entirely sure what it is you are trying to rationalize, but it appears to be a denial that culture played an important part of this murder.

[capricorn]

Your statement is a blatant rationalization. I'm not entirely sure what it is you are trying to rationalize, but it appears to be a denial that culture played an important part of this murder.

Angus I don't deny anything and I'm not rationalizing. I'm simply keeping an open mind as to the real motive of the crime until all the evidence is disclosed. On the surface, it does look like the guy is a raving religious nut. So what? Murder is murder for whatever reason it is still murder. If he is found guilty he will not receive a sentence different than any other murderer.

If it comes out that he killed his daughter because she refused to wear the hijab, in my eyes it does not make him a different murderer than a father who killed his daughter for any other reason.

Another point. If it is found that religion is behind this horrendous crime, other than wringing our hands, I don't think anyone can do or anything can be done to prevent such murders from occurring again in the future. It is here and nothing can halt it.

[Carinthia]

Angus I don't deny anything and I'm not rationalizing. I'm simply keeping an open mind as to the real motive of the crime until all the evidence is disclosed. On the surface, it does look like the guy is a raving religious nut. So what? Murder is murder for whatever reason it is still murder. If he is found guilty he will not receive a sentence different than any other murderer.

If it comes out that he killed his daughter because she refused to wear the hijab, in my eyes it does not make him a different murderer than a father who killed his daughter for any other reason.

Another point. If it is found that religion is behind this horrendous crime, other than wringing our hands, I don't think anyone can do or anything can be done to prevent such murders from occurring again in the future. It is here and nothing can halt it.

I think the overall fear is that the prosecution may reduce the charge to manslaughter due to his religious and cultural beliefs. If this father was mentally ill, as you suggest he may be, why would his 26 year old son not jump in stop the assault? He didn't and was subsequently charged with obstruction of justice. Were they both mentally ill? I doubt it.

[kengs333]

I'm not the one resorting to personal comments and trolling, keng. You ever heard "hate the sin, not the sinner?" Maybe you should approach people who disagree with you like that "bud."

Central American civilizations operated under a fanatical religious mindset, sometimes monotheistic, sometimes not.

The Soviet Union is an exception, I don't deny that. It also makes sense when looking at history on a macro level... what comes up, must come down, and when religion was replaced by the State and Big Business as people's means of uniting with one another... well... they responded with actions like the Holocaust, or the Red Revolution...

But again, it's an exception.

I'm not sure someone with a mere 40 posts should be accusing other members of trolling, especially when the acuser's identity is suspect.

Communism in particular has been exceedingly brutal, not just in the Soviet Union, but in China, southeast Asia, Korea, Africa, parts of central America.

[jbg]

Angus I don't deny anything and I'm not rationalizing. I'm simply keeping an open mind as to the real motive of the crime until all the evidence is disclosed. On the surface, it does look like the guy is a raving religious nut.

Strikes me as a straight-out honor killing. Canada and the US are supposed to be places of opportunity for all people, including female daughters of mad fanatics. It is time to send the message that by coming to the West, Muslims are freeing their female servants from slavery.

[eXploiTeD]

I'm not sure someone with a mere 40 posts should be accusing other members of trolling, especially when the acuser's identity is suspect.

How many posts I have is irrelevant.

You are trolling, plain and simple. You won't stay on point, you constantly accuse me of being someone else (or pretending to be someone else?), and always talk as if you were God's representative on earth. Truth is, you are being really fucking annoying. If you can't or won't stay on topic, don't bother responding to my posts.

Communism in particular has been exceedingly brutal, not just in the Soviet Union, but in China, southeast Asia, Korea, Africa, parts of central America.

Did you read my last post or not?

The general trend is that the less religious people are, the more successful, economically and socially. This holds true regardless of the excesses of Communism. Communism has also exerted power over people's lives for less then a hundred years... religion, thousands... so it is definitely the exception. Not only that, but it makes sense when viewed through the "pendulum" of human behaviour... religion is extremist and brutal, and what it took to defeat it was an extreme and brutal secular system. Now that both have been largely dismissed as legitimate means of governance, the world has mostly adopted the free market system, and is slowly democratizing.

[capricorn]

I think the overall fear is that the prosecution may reduce the charge to manslaughter due to his religious and cultural beliefs. If this father was mentally ill, as you suggest he may be, why would his 26 year old son not jump in stop the assault? He didn't and was subsequently charged with obstruction of justice. Were they both mentally ill? I doubt it.

Car, you're right. When you throw in the son's (in)action in the mix everything points to a culture/religion based murder.

[capricorn]

It is time to send the message that by coming to the West, Muslims are freeing their female servants from slavery.

The message should be sent to them before they come here not after they've been accepted for immigration. This message should form part of the immigrant selection process at the application stage. If anyone does not like the prospect that men and women have equal rights in Canada, they can immigrate to a country that continues to subjugate women.

[Guest American Woman]

I think part of the immigration process has to be to let them know that they do have to adapt to certain degree to the culture they are moving to, at least in regards to the law-- and it should be made clear what that law is. Also, they should be made aware that children are protected in western cultures, too-- that they have rights even though they are minors.

However, this isn't just a problem with recent immigrants. The articles I linked to say this is a problem with second and third generation Muslims; Muslims born and raised in Europe. So our western cultures have to come up with ways to deal with it. I think the meeting of the EU nations to discuss it is a good beginning. Until there is awareness, not only will it continue, but most likely get worse.

Thanks for the link about the police actions regarding Muslim violence in Australia, JS. I'm going to look into that further, but if it's as it appears to be in that article, having seperate laws for Muslims in just plain crazy-- and unbelievable.

I've learned a lot since I've started looking into all this. I have to say, I had no idea this was going on to the extent that it is and that it's become such a problem. It's so sad and difficult to believe the lives that some are subjected to. I think it's our duty to change that within our own countries, which makes Australia so difficult to understand.

[Rue]

Sorry Rue, I think you're way off base with that one. I think it happened exactly because she refused as you put it "to follow a certain moral script". It has been mentioned previously that it's pretty hard to strangle someone to death in a "heat of the moment" sort of scenario. You really have to work at it, it takes a rather lengthy amount of time to do this. In fact you have to keep strangling after the victim looses consciousness. It's not like he struck her on the head or anything, he strangled her, not choked, or put his hand over her mouth and nose for a while, strangled.

From all indications it certainly was morally or culturally inspired. So far I haven't found anything that would indicate it was accidental, lots that indicates a cultural influence though. Besides, how the hell do you accidentally strangle someone? It's the real world, you have to make a deliberate effort to do so. I know you find this disturbing as its at odds with your world view and adoration of the cult of multi-cult but unfortunately these things do happen in the real world.

Actually Angus I do not disagree with you. In your reference which I would think I agree with keeping in mind I do not have all the information, it sounds like because this girl would not follow a certain moral script prescribed by her father, she enraged him. Totally agree with you. When I responded to Keng, I was repudiating his arguement that women need to follow his moral script (version) of Christianity to not be immoral.

What I am arguing is no women is necessarily immoral or moral because they may or may not choose to obey the moral script prescribed to them by their father or any man.

I hope that clarifies it.

[Rue]

To those who keep insisting Islam/culture of Islamic nations had nothing to do with this murder, I have to wonder why you are so unwilling to entertain the possibility; not to condemn Islam, but to recognize what is a growing problem in the Western world and in hope that nations will see this and take steps to help. I posted an editorial that says 'yes, this is a problem in Europe but wouldn't happen in Canada' and still no responses to that. It's a 'stick your head in the sand' attitude that not only doesn't help solve anything, but will allow it to go on ("All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing").

"I hope she becomes a beacon of hope for all the girls who are in a similar situation living like a hostage in their homes," a Pakistani-Canadian has said, commenting on 16-year-old Aqsa Parvez’s murder by her father because she would not wear the hijab.

Syed Shah, an IT specialist, told the Toronto Sun that Aqsa’s "tragic demise should be an eye opener for those ‘traditional’ fathers who are living in Canada yet are still trapped in the 15th century mind frame."

Another Canadian Muslim, retired professor Dr Mahfooz Kanwar said Aqsa’s death had all the marks of an honour killing by a man who felt his religion and family were being disrespected. Link

It IS a problem, one that isn't restricted to new immigrants-- raised in poor, undeveloped Islamic nations-- but among European born Muslims, also.

Moderate Islamic groups and some European leaders are warning that honor killings reflect a trend of fundamentalism that sneers at Western laws and values.

''There are two societies with two different value systems living side by side -- but wholly apart -- in Europe," said Seyran Ates, a Berlin lawyer of Turkish origin who often works with women trying to escape forced marriages.

The first two generations of immigrants, Ates said, found plentiful jobs and were generally content. But the generation of European-born Muslims now coming of age, Ates said, ''never integrated into Western society [and] are becoming more and more conservative, not less so."

The rise of fundamentalism among Muslims in Europe can be blamed, at least partially, on the failure of countries to integrate the millions of Muslims who started arriving in large numbers in the 1960s.

Link--(an article well worth reading)

Women and girls are paying the price. I would hope we'd all put aside fears of being un-PC and recognize that.

As Europe's Muslims become increasingly conservative, growing numbers of women are being killed or mutilated in the name of ''family honor," according to law enforcement agencies, women's activist groups, and moderate Islamic organizations.

Moderate Islamic organizations are recognizing the problem, so it's not 'anti-Islamic' to see it and be alarmed by it.

Strongly agree. Fundamentalist religious beliefs in Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Islam and Sikhism to name but a few, have been used by men to justify depicting women as property, or secondary identities whose definition comes only when attached as a supplemental support to a male one, and with words and concepts that depict the female body as evil and in need of control.

The psycho-sexual references in these religions have been used by certain people to promote violence and hostility towards women and provides the rationalization for such actions.

No religion is beyond criticism for the way they depict women and their bodies and they will continue to fuel these kinds of conflicts and violence unless we confront fundamentalists and say-no your way is not the only way.

When a Muslim woman says to me she chose the Hijab, I get it. If she tells me she did not choose it, it was forced on her, I also get it-either way I will support her in what she thinks is right, not what someone else says.

I appreciate if a woman is not of legal age, there are limits to how we interefere with their parents in raising them, but society has certain rules and one of them is you do not beat or hit your children or wife or commit violence even if you think it is in the name of your family's honour or God.

The moment you engage in violence, you make it society's business and its no longer a religious issue, its a criminal law issue.

At least that is how I postulate it and why I strongly agree with you but am not anti-religion, just anti people who use religion to promote violence and intolerance.

Edited December 19, 2007 by Rue

[Moxie]

Great post Rue.

I believe he MURDERED her because his religion teaches it's acceptable to beat women and children in the name of Allah. For someone to place their hands around another's neck and choke you to death tells me it was coldly executed with pure hatred and anger.

We allow freedom of Religion in Canada, perhaps we as a society need to dictate to the Feds what we will accept as a Religion. Islamic Countries are getting more oppressive everyday towards women, Radical Islam is growing with a fevered pitch, at this rate women will be nobodys. Iran has declaired the word female to be Un-Islamic thus women will be called "Families". The mad Mullas have relagated women into nothing, and they won't be happy until women are forced to live underground lest they offend these male vermin.

The latest out of Iran: http://www.adnkronos.com/AKI/English/Relig...=1.0.1687095144

Snippet: A top Muslim cleric in Iran, Hojatolislam Gholam Reza Hassani said on Wednesday that women in Iran who do not wear the hijab or Muslim headscarf, should die.

"Women who do not respect the hijab and their husbands deserve to die," said Hassani, who leads Friday prayers in the city of Urumieh, in Iranian Azerbaijan.

"I do not understand how these women who do not respect the hijab, 28 years after the birth of the Islamic Republic, are still alive," he said.

Again tell me again what he did wasn't about the teachings of Islam but a parenting issue. Sure, yep.

[Rue]

Another bothersome tic here is that I know in my mind-grapes that the very people who become champions of women's rights when the oppressors are brown would be the first to deny that there's any progress to be made wrt to women's rights within western society.

With due respect Black Dog you have make the same kind of subjective assumptions of some of us as you fear may being imposed on "brown" people. Its a subjective generalization just as the one you stated that speculated that domestic violence happens with poor uneducated people from certain societies. (its actually not true, domestic violence and violence against women as per StatsCan or UN crime statistics shows it transcends social and economic class, religions, cultures, its not limited to poor people or certain religions or cultures-i.e., rich educated men also beat and murder women)

Respectfully Dog, brown skin, yellow skin, white skin, is not the issue-domestic violence is. The race or religion card thrown into the equation to try suggest the reason people are criticizing this case is because they are anti-Islam is just as bigoted a thing to assume as it is to assume all Islamic peoples are violent or all brown skinned people are violent.

With due respect dogm someone can just as easily turn your comment around and say they are just as sick and tired of liberal guilt types like you so worried about being politically appropriate you will look the other way when the violence is with someone of as you say "brown skin".

The fact that I strongly argue religious fundamentalist beliefs are inter-related to certain kinds of domestic violence and in this case fundamentalism Islam does not make me racist or anti-Muslim just as it doesn't make me anti-Christian or anti-Jewish or anti-Hindu or anti-anyone with a dogma or doctrine that believes in moral frameworks that can be forcefully imposed on others who do not agree.

Dog I got into this huge debate with some nice folk in New York at the UN during a family mediators and domestic violence conference. These very law dee duh upper crust New Yorkers began lecturing me on how tolerant they were and how open minded they were and how wonderful they thought it was that Muslims should be able to opt out of family laws to pursue their own Sharia law and how we in North America should encourage such tolerance.

My arguement then was as it is now. You want to be religious, and pursue fundamentalism, I am happy for you. Use it to opt out of the criminal code, Ontario family laws or the federal divorce act I have a problem and so does society. No you can't come to Canada or the US and opt out and only select certain things from the menu when you choose citizenship in Canada or the US. There are limits to multi-culturalism. The limits end when you try take cultural values and impose them to supercede and violate criminal and family laws.

That is the issue not being anti-Islam or anti-ultra Orthodox Jewish or anti-certain Christian sects. If a Mormon wants more then one wife, sorry aint gonna happen. If someone wants to beat their child senseless cuz she was out with someone after a certain hour, yah its a problem with society.

You want to get violent and commit a crime or violate criminal and domestic laws, yah its a problem and no playing the race card is bull shit. Its wrong whether one is pink, yellow, brown, blue, green and no please do not presume you can generalize and assume because I criticize fundamentalist Islam I hate all people with brown skin or who are Muslim.

Some of us do know the difference between a woman who chooses the hijab freely and one who had it shoved down her throat. It doesn't make us anti-anything, just pro-choice for women.

I never taught my daughters to blindly accept what I said. The more they argued and questionedthe more I knew I did my job properly as a father to teach them their identity was not dependent on getting my approval, but on believing in themselves and trusting their own judgement (getting their own approval).

Its a respectful partial disagreement Dog because I also understand what you are getting at. I understand these topic attracts those looking to advance their agendas of intolerance or hatred. I do not deny that at all. I guess I am saying, so what? You really think these hate mongers looking to use this to exploit the situation make any points? They end up evidencing the very thing they criticize. Chances are the people who get incited by this stuff to hate Muslims will have hated Muslims anyways and they use any opportunity to reinforce what they want to see and hear-that doesn't mean it should prevent the rest of us from trying to find a way to learn from this and talk about it openly and candidly and trust Muslims to know we do not hate them if we question the role their religion might have had in this episode but could just as also easily been another religion.

If we are gonna put this shit down man don't you think we need to criticize everyone equally?

Edited December 19, 2007 by Rue

[Peter F]

The message should be sent to them before they come here not after they've been accepted for immigration. This message should form part of the immigrant selection process at the application stage. If anyone does not like the prospect that men and women have equal rights in Canada, they can immigrate to a country that continues to subjugate women.

Well, yeah. Certainly.

But I'm pretty sure they do that already. They do tell the prospective immigrant that Canada has different laws, Sharia Law has no legitimacy in Canada; Canada is a western country where women are allowed and in many cases encouraged to dress 'prevocatively'; That Canada is a secular nation where the Christian church - or any other religion - doe's not make the rules.

I'm pretty sure that they get all that information already before being accepted as immigrants. Unless, of course, they find immigration applications to Canada lying in the street...

I would say that the reason people immigrate is not because of the cultural conflict but because of the opportunity to gather wealth for themselves and thier children. So, even if immigrants are told loud and clear that thier cultural belief system won't wash in Canada, What do we do with folks who, after being told these things, immigrate anyways? Will such pronouncements ensure that only folks willing to trash thier cultural beliefs immigrate to Canada?