Sikh Man dies in 'his own' hospital

[mikedavid00]

Remember that Hospital in my Sig that the Sikh's tried to claim as 'there own'?

Well, the first incident happened already. In a sureal trail of events here's what happened:

-Sikh man donates to hopital during its building phase (this was an organzied effort in order for a race of people in Canada to lay claim to this hospital - admitted fact).

-Man gets taken to the 'Guru Nanak Emergency' and gets the treatment that all Canadians get: a 12 hour wait.

-Man dies later. They blame the long waiting times and lack of care. (again, common for ALL Canadians)

-Now the son is claiming that he should have gotten special treatment becuase he denoted to the hospital.

-Now, there is a Sikh group that have formed a lobby group "Bramptonians for Better Healthcare" who's aim is to ultimately make the hospital their own and give better treatement to those that 'donated' and give it more funding.

"Hundreds of people are expected to rally in protest at the hospital on Sunday. Richards said he is "very concerned" about the rally, particularly since there are rumours that demonstrators "will fake heart attacks or strokes to create incidents. That is reckless endangerment."

http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/282726

(look at the picture of who's walking into our hospital and ask yourself if it's very likely that person ever contributed a dime into our healthcare system).

Edited December 6, 2007 by mikedavid00

[M.Dancer]

.......look at the picture of who's walking into our hospital and ask yourself if it's very likely that person ever contributed a dime into our healthcare system).

I asked myself, not only does she look better eductated than you sound, she also looks like a taxpayer and someone who would vote whether it is raining or not......

[AngusThermopyle]

The part I find disturbing is where they mention a planned demonstration. The demonstration itself is not a problem, annoying yes, but not a problem. What is a problem is this idea to stage fake heart attacks and so on. That just falls into the category of down right stupid.

Hopefully the ones organizing the demonstration will think twice about such an irresponsible action.

Honestly though I think it shows the mindset that is undesirable in this country. The fact that they believe they should get preferential treatment because they donated money is disgusting. Pretty third world sort of mindset actually.

[M.Dancer]

The fact that they believe they should get preferential treatment because they donated money is disgusting. Pretty third world sort of mindset actually.

Yes well...hmmm....not really.

Two stories, one small, one large.

This woman I know has raised and donated in the region of $20k over a few years or so to a local Toronto Hospital known for its orthopedic work. Her employee falls on the ice and breaks his ankle. She gets on the blower with the department head (who she knows because of her fund raising) and gets the employee to the front of the line....

Another person whom I know of.....she worked in a top level senior capacity with a very large high profile canadian corporation which has a wing of a hospital named after the company's founder. The Wing specializes in cancer. This woman's husband gets cancer, the CEO and founder ( who has donated millions and millions top the hospital and helped raise millions more) ensures that the hospital's top specialists are on his executive's husband's case.

This sort of thing happens all the time. It is not limited to the third world.

[AngusThermopyle]

True, these things do happen, that doesn't make it right though. Should we just say "well, it happens" and turn a blind eye to it?

The simple fact is that in third world countries this sort of practice is a given, part of the way of life, should we too follow this model? The desire to be accommodating must be curbed at some point. We cant just say "well thats hunky dory" and ignore this kind of thing.

As for your examples, they serve only to illustrate that reprehensible behaviour and attitudes can occur anywhere. They in no way what so ever justify this sort of expectation of privilege.

[mikedavid00]

The simple fact is that in third world countries this sort of practice is a given, part of the way of life, should we too follow this model? The desire to be accommodating must be curbed at some point. We cant just say "well thats hunky dory" and ignore this kind of thing.

The *reason* why the third world is the third world is becuase of those kind of cultural practices. Culture isn't food and costume. It's more of a way of thinking or behaviour.

That is part of India's way of doing things. You organize, protest, buy-off, use religion, secure voting blocks. It's just coming here now. Those ways are proven destrucive and not the key to any countries success.

[guyser]

mikeD, you really should read the article you linked to. It would certainly improve your unfounded notions as to what occurred , but then I understand it would destroy your premise. But why let truth or facts stop you?

Remember that Hospital in my Sig that the Sikh's tried to claim as 'there own'?

Well, the first incident happened already. In a sureal trail of events here's what happened:

-Sikh man donates to hopital during its building phase (this was an organzied effort in order for a race of people in Canada to lay claim to this hospital - admitted fact).

Of course that "fact" is not apparent anywhere, but admitted in the article that this is "common" since the previous Cons instituted the programme.

-Man gets taken to the 'Guru Nanak Emergency' and gets the treatment that all Canadians get: a 12 hour wait.

Um, no mikey thats not true. ENG 101 would help. Maybe ESL? 12 hours to get assigned a bed. Not med help. But again, dont let facts get in the way.

-Man dies later. They blame the long waiting times and lack of care. (again, common for ALL Canadians)

Wow...a swing and a miss ...the blame is being cast at the lack of staffing , not the wait times nor lack of care.

-Now the son is claiming that he should have gotten special treatment becuase he denoted to the hospital.

Another mostly whiff, but the inference could be made I suppose.....the son said ""They just don't have any staff there. Had we known any of this earlier, we would not have gone there and we certainly wouldn't have given them any money. "

(look at the picture of who's walking into our hospital and ask yourself if it's very likely that person ever contributed a dime into our healthcare system).

Guarentee you they did. Without question. Care to prove otherwise?

mikeyD, another attempt to spread the BS.

[g_bambino]

What has always given me an uneasy feeling about this whole story - from the beginning, but again now that it's back in the news - is the strong overtones of ethno-cultural segregation and the entrenchment of ghettoes. Certainly immigrants to a new culture need a time to adapt, but this hospital affair seems to have allowed a spotlight to shine onto immigrants building their own "communities" purely so they don't have to adapt.

That is part of India's way of doing things. You organize, protest, buy-off, use religion, secure voting blocks. It's just coming here now. Those ways are proven destrucive and not the key to any countries success.

I guess the litmus test will be in how successful they are with their way of doing things.

[M.Dancer]

True, these things do happen, that doesn't make it right though. Should we just say "well, it happens" and turn a blind eye to it?

You are correct. It happens and it doesn't make it right.

But I wonder, If people like the Billionaire thought that building a hospital wing wouldn't necessarily give him VIP treatment....would he still be inclined to donate as much?

I think the difference between largesse here and abroad is; here it is expected of the very wealthy and they expect deferential service in return, abroad the expectation of who will be a benefacter is much broader.....where as here it is the filty rich, abroad anyone middle class ....(or wanting to be seen as middle class) make sizable donations.

And of course, like the filthy rich they too might want preferential treatment.

....one way to see it though, we may be more classist than they, they more egalitarian.....

[Michael Hardner]

The *reason* why the third world is the third world is becuase of those kind of cultural practices.

MikeDavid - So purchased healthcare is a third world practice ? And the US ?

As usual, your original post contains insinuations and outright falsehoods. If you don't care to provide evidence, or even to post correct information then don't expect reasonable people to engage you in intelligent debate. You will only receive taunts.

[mikedavid00]

....one way to see it though, we may be more classist than they, they more egalitarian.....

The more poor a country, the more classist it becomes. Especially in a place like India where they formally give a cast name to your family.

[mikedavid00]

MikeDavid - So purchased healthcare is a third world practice ? And the US ?

As usual, your original post contains insinuations and outright falsehoods. If you don't care to provide evidence, or even to post correct information then don't expect reasonable people to engage you in intelligent debate. You will only receive taunts.

They did not purchase healthcare. They made donations.

Guyser doesn't know the real story or have heard the interviews on the radio. The Toront Star peice was an inside published story that was carefully calculated.

Bramptonians For Better Healthcare is really just an ethnic cultural organization trying to further claim the hosptial as their own and increase funding to support themselves.

Maybe guyser you should look at the % of donations that they gave to the hospital.

Regardless, this story proves 2 things:

1 - we need to move to a logical immigration system based on work permits.

2 - we need private healthcare.

3 - we need to secularize our society and stop the prejudice, racist practice of recognizing cultural creeds and racial groups.

[Michael Hardner]

MD,

I couldn't find this either:

-Now the son is claiming that he should have gotten special treatment becuase he denoted to the hospital.

I'm not saying you made it up, but... well... did you ?

I'd also like to point out that the hospital administrator doesn't need to mention 'rumours' that he or his staff might have heard or invented to vilify a community that is angry with the quality of service they have experienced.

Perhaps if the rest of Canada was a little more outspoken about the quality of service, our system wouldn't be in such shoddy shape. Canadians don't even know where to get healthcare service performance statistics, such as wait times.

[Michael Hardner]

MD,

Bramptonians For Better Healthcare is really just an ethnic cultural organization trying to further claim the hosptial as their own and increase funding to support themselves.

So are you fighting fire with fire then ? Do you think it's okay to say whatever you can get away with to counter these groups ? It's an objective question.

[guyser]

Guyser doesn't know the real story or have heard the interviews on the radio. The Toront Star peice was an inside published story that was carefully calculated.

I read what you posted and heard about it on the news. So what am I missing?...other than the truth as you tried to pass off .

Carefully calculated to print the truth?. Ow...cant have that. Maybe you could call the the Star and have them fabricate a story .

Maybe guyser you should look at the % of donations that they gave to the hospital.

I did. Guess what? They contributed more than you did. Not to mention more than I did .And good for them , this actually shows you that they care enough to give their dollars, and that they (immigrants) are not all a drain on this country. Missed that didnt you?

Regardless, this story proves 2 things:

And then prints 3 things.....

Anyhow

1 - we need to move to a logical immigration system based on work permits.

2 - we need private healthcare.

3 - we need to secularize our society and stop the prejudice, racist practice of recognizing cultural creeds and racial groups.

Actually it proves nothing of the sort.

Lets see...#1 - my guess is that sort of money is not raised by people who are welfare bums , thus they can be and probably are working. So much for #1

#2-because someone died of pancreatitis we need private healthcare. Well that makes sense, if we had private then no one would die.

#3 -so because I recognize someone is Portuguese I am racist or prejudiced?

I am astonished to find out that a German wearing lederhosen is not a cultural trait. Or eating perogies/cabbage rolls isnt either. Who knew that isnt cultural?

[Wilber]

But I wonder, If people like the Billionaire thought that building a hospital wing wouldn't necessarily give him VIP treatment....would he still be inclined to donate as much?

When you look at what the likes of billionaire Jimmy Pattison have done, I really don't think it is a consideration for most of them. Even though he opened pavilion at Vancouver General Hospital, he lives in West Vancouver. The closest hospital if he had an emergency would be Lions Gate on the North Shore. These people can afford the best treatment in the world and have the private jets to take them to it. When you consider how many people have benefited from their generosity, I don't have a problem with them getting some extra consideration.

[Rue]

Let us refresh some righteous gentiles memories who seem to want to turn this into a racial incident.

There was a time not too long ago if you were a Jew, you had to start your own hospital otherwise you would not get admitted. Likewise for those of you who are not Sikh or Chinese or visible minority there was a time if you were anything but a Wasp or Catholic you were lucky to get any treatment in any hopsital. But oh pish posh how some of us just assume Canada has always been this first world nation of perfect morality which can sneer its nose at Sikhs or whoever.

Here is the point. Under the Public Health Act of Ontario any racist inference that Sikhs are acting like third world savages looking for preferential treatment is bullshit.

The Public Health Act imposes strict guidelines on who is to be treated and no hospital can discriminate based on race, creed, religion, etc.

But here is the point. For those few caucasians with their nose out of joint making smeers about the motives of Sikhs- they have done what every other ethnic community has done for their community, contribute funding to hospitals and their contributions will help not just Sikhs but everyone. To suggest they did so because they are third world manipulators trying to bribe there way to the front of line is racist. Its a classic smeer of a group by assigning them negative motives and qualities based on subjective perception but NOT FACT.

Their motives are the same as any other group trying to assure their community has a hospital. How is that sinister? How is that seeking advantage?

Here is how the real world works. Corporations make major donations to hospitals. Do you think they can get preferential treatment for their employees? What nonsense to suggest they can. That is precisely why they buy sheeshy private insurance plans and send their execs to private clinics. You want two tier health, its based on money not race.

What we do know is someone who is a politician or someone with clout, may be able to push in line for certain things however to smeer all Sikhs because they donate to a community hospital and want it sensitive to their special religious needs is bull.

Any hospital has a board of directors and yes when a doctor finds out a director is in the hoospital or a nurse or doctor's child is in the hospital or some other employee in the hospital this may get them some preference but nothing that will comromise the safety of anyone else.

Tell me where do you think hospitals used to get their funding from exclusively and now continue to depend heavily on? Of couse its communities and their various groups.

What next? Oh right, do tell me I get preferential treatment if I tell people my last name at Mt. Sinai. Yah they all just snap to attention. Right and when gay people used to go to Wllesley Hospital, everyone just stopped what they were doing and said-look he's gay push him in front of that straight guy.

For that matter even in Catholic Hospitals such as Saint Joe's do you not think they showed some prefential treatment to priests or big shots in the Church?

So why is it when a Sikh does it, suddenly its sinister.

There was a time in this country when Sikhs were treated like expendable dirt and trying to get treated in a hospital was problematic simply because of their appearance and they are supposed to apologize for wanting to assure this never happens to them again?

Some people are hell bent on taking anything a minority group does and degrading it and assigning sinister motive to it.

There was and is none in Brampton. The Sikh people now upset are upset for no different then anyone else would be in any community. They are not upset because they can't get preferential treatment. That is someone's perception based on their bias against Sikhs. All Sikhs are upset about is what everyone of us gets upset about-lack of hospital beds, incomplete services, poor internal communications.

This is a new hospital and a very large one at that. It of course in its start up phase struggles to iron out the kinks. It could take years. In the meantime people in the community will complain and do what communities do with all hospitals.

As for the death, each time there is a death or an adverse reaction in a hospital setting, the public does get frightened.

New hospital laws have been implemented to assure a protocol is followed to disclose to the patient's family and to the public what happened to assure if it was preventable steps can be taken to assure it does not happen again. However the facts are not in and the death may have been unavoidable, i.e., as a result of the nature of the illness, not anything flowing from a breakdown in health care.

Running hospitals is done through a myriad of committees and a new organization called the LHIN which has been delegated authority from the provincial Ministry of Health to work with various agencies and of course all the health provider colleges to assure optimal health care.

Part of this process requries being accounable and interactive with the community and the community is allowed and expected to express their opinions-trying to suggest they are third world for doing this is bull.

Edited December 6, 2007 by Rue

[mikedavid00]

Perhaps if the rest of Canada was a little more outspoken about the quality of service, our system wouldn't be in such shoddy shape.

I actually *DO* support them holding the hospital to account. I just don't support 'them'. I don't support them using our hospitals or being in Canada to begin with. I also don't support their motives.

"This terrible country killed on of our own! Let us protest in the name of guru blah blah blah"

I'm sure they even called the politicians and made political threats. If that happens, i'm telling you the Liberals will lose the Brampton riding.

Mark these words: the Liberals will give money to the hosptial and/or there will be a statement, something will happen.

"McGuinty a star in Punjab"

MUST SEE

http://www.thestar.com/News/article/173475

[g_bambino]

"McGuinty a star in Punjab"

http://www.thestar.com/News/article/173475

Slightly OT, but, jeez, as if the tax dollars spent on this little political photo-op weren't issue enough, what's McGuinty's wife doing there with him? Is she some sort of First Lady now?

[guyser]

Slightly OT, but, jeez, as if the tax dollars spent on this little political photo-op weren't issue enough, what's McGuinty's wife doing there with him? Is she some sort of First Lady now?

I am no fan of McGuinty , but since the plane is going cant his wife tag along? Dont see anything wrong with it.

[mikedavid00]

I am no fan of McGuinty

Why not?

Did you see how he dealt with the license plate issue?

I like him.

[AngusThermopyle]

Did you see how he dealt with the license plate issue?

What license plate issue?

I'll never be a McGuinty fan, he lies like a Persian rug.

[Moxie]

I am no fan of McGuinty , but since the plane is going cant his wife tag along? Dont see anything wrong with it.

After McGuinty I lost you. Perhaps rewrite it, or did you mean to say his wife can't fly a plane (aircraft) and you don't see anything wrong with her not flying a plane?

From the News report it sounds like a couple of special interest groups want "Special" attention, bad bad idea. A hospital is suppose to be for everyone in the community, not just the vocal minority voice. Who raised said amount of cash shouldn't be an issue.

[Michael Hardner]

I actually *DO* support them holding the hospital to account. I just don't support 'them'. I don't support them using our hospitals or being in Canada to begin with. I also don't support their motives.

"This terrible country killed on of our own! Let us protest in the name of guru blah blah blah"

I'm sure they even called the politicians and made political threats. If that happens, i'm telling you the Liberals will lose the Brampton riding.

Mark these words: the Liberals will give money to the hosptial and/or there will be a statement, something will happen.

"McGuinty a star in Punjab"

MUST SEE

http://www.thestar.com/News/article/173475

MikeDavid,

And again - you don't have a reasonable thought behind your opinion, only a dislike for people who are different. You post false evidence, and refuse to back up quotes. The only thing that anyone should discuss with you is your shoddy methods of analysis and debate.

Here is how topics are discussed here:

1 ) Make a clear point

2 ) Back it up with evidence

3 ) When others have points that counter yours, deal with them. Explain why they're wrong, or modify your position to accommodate any criticism that may be valid.

[guyser]

Why not?

Did you see how he dealt with the license plate issue?

I like him.

Never been a fan of Libs for Ontario. Prefer Cons provincially w a Lib federal.

Yes I saw how he dealt with the licence plate issue, but come on mike , if your house is seriously falling apart are you saying that you are happy to have screwed in one new socket plate?

He corrected something that is an issue with maybe 30 people in a province of 12M. It should have been corrected years ago, but the puritan noobs who work that division were never challenged.

The same goes for stevey. The Cons do some things that are right too! Doesnt mean I like them.