China has refused nine Us Navy Ships entry

[xul]

Actually, China changed its mind about the Kitty Hawk and said it could dock, but the U.S. said no thanks at that point.

I think you has misunderstand the reaction of Chinese government. The refusal means "we don't like some your government's action", and ther permission later means "we don't want to punish the innocents."

Accorting another article I read, some journalists and familiy numbers waited at port, but the carrier did not arrive at time. When the journalist asked a American consulate official wheather the port call had been canceled and the official answerd it was just "delayed". If the article is the turth, it hints that the Kitty Hawk had left while Amercian diplomats were negotiating with Chinese government, it is interesting.

Are you sure that the decision of the battle group left Hong Kong was made by American government, or just by navy, or only by the commander of the battle group?

Edited December 3, 2007 by xul

[Sulaco]

Which explains why you as a nation and a people keep repeating the same mistakes from the past.

Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Those who learn from history are doomed to a lifetime of reruns.

In other words - history repeats and no amount of learnin' will change that. And that's true for everyone, everywhere.

Edited December 4, 2007 by Sulaco

[Higgly]

According the information I has just searched from some Chinese unofficial web site, in earlier 1997 American government and Chinese Government reached an agreement that allow American warships making port call Hong Kong after Britain return Hong Kong to China, but each port call must be granted by Chinese government. This means China has the right to refuse any American warship port call Hong Kong.

Chinese government allow these port call because these port call had kept for many years when British controled Hong Kong and if Chinese government stoped these port call some Hong Kong tourism industry would loss some interests.

Usually Chinese government may refuse these port call several times when American government sells weapon to Taiwan and American government knows the game. This is not the first time American warship was refused by China for the same reason.

This is why I think the event was odd. Why these families were still sent to Hong Kong? Was it a mistake, or some American officials wanted using them to blackmail Chinese government?---I don't think the second point was the truth, so I guess American government was just forgetting Kitty Hawk and Thanksgiving Day when they came out with the weapon deal.

I think the action of Chinese government is correct and appropriate. They refused the port call first by political reason and then granted it several hours later by humanitarian reason, they properly distinguished the confliction between governments and the interests of these sailor families and Hong Kong citizens. American navy said the carrier could not come back is caused of weather. But which kind of weather could avoid a battle group going to Hong Kong while could not object it going to Japan? It's obviously that American navy sacrificed their sailor families' interests only for their "face".

Perhaps, but by which way would China be looked good in American medium?

Even if China sent 1 million troop to Iraq helping America, perhaps that would cheer American one month. Because the second month those Chinese soldiers would make all mistakes that American soldiers did---misshooting civilians, mistreatment prisoners, misbombing allies....., and I guess everyone here could imagine how American medium would condemn "brute Chinese". So China would become more bad than doing nothing.

Thank you!

[Guest American Woman]

According the information I has just searched from some Chinese unofficial web site, in earlier 1997 American government and Chinese Government reached an agreement that allow American warships making port call Hong Kong after Britain return Hong Kong to China, but each port call must be granted by Chinese government. This means China has the right to refuse any American warship port call Hong Kong.

I understand that completely.

Chinese government allow these port call because these port call had kept for many years when British controled Hong Kong and if Chinese government stoped these port call some Hong Kong tourism industry would loss some interests.

I don't doubt that the $$$ the port calls bring in are important to Hong Kong's economy.

Usually Chinese government may refuse these port call several times when American government sells weapon to Taiwan and American government knows the game. This is not the first time American warship was refused by China for the same reason.

I also realize China has refused entry in the past. But it wasn't a surprise to the U.S. when it happened and I don't know of any instance where ships encountering a storm at sea were denied safe shelter.

This is why I think the event was odd. Why these families were still sent to Hong Kong? Was it a mistake, or some American officials wanted using them to blackmail Chinese government?---I don't think the second point was the truth, so I guess American government was just forgetting Kitty Hawk and Thanksgiving Day when they came out with the weapon deal.

I don't follow the "blackmail" line of thought at all. I don't think the government forgot the Kitty Hawk and Thanksgiving when coming out with the weapon deal since there was speculation after the refusal to dock that selling the missles to Taiwan were part of the reason- along with honoring the Dahli Lama. I think the surprise came because the U.S. wasn't informed of China's change of mind until it was time for them to go into port.

I think the action of Chinese government is correct and appropriate. They refused the port call first by political reason and then granted it several hours later by humanitarian reason, they properly distinguished the confliction between governments and the interests of these sailor families and Hong Kong citizens. American navy said the carrier could not come back is caused of weather. But which kind of weather could avoid a battle group going to Hong Kong while could not object it going to Japan? It's obviously that American navy sacrificed their sailor families' interests only for their "face".

The Chinese government has every right to refuse entry, but in light of the circumstances, we have the right to question why, especially since it sounds as if permission for the Kitty Hawk had been granted. As far as I know the American navy said it wasn't going to go back because it was too late; it was already well on it's way to Japan. I don't think the weather had anything to do with that situation. It as two other ships that had to find other shelter from the storm after China's refusal.

Perhaps, but by which way would China be looked good in American medium?

By giving our ships shelter from the storm. By not going back on permission to dock.

Even if China sent 1 million troop to Iraq helping America, perhaps that would cheer American one month. Because the second month those Chinese soldiers would make all mistakes that American soldiers did---misshooting civilians, mistreatment prisoners, misbombing allies....., and I guess everyone here could imagine how American medium would condemn "brute Chinese". So China would become more bad than doing nothing.

Now you're just making stuff up. The media here doesn't make stuff up to make China look bad. Why would we do that? Our government is trying to have good relations with China. I don't feel as if there's hard feelings between Chinese and Americans or Americans and Chinese. Do you?

Edited December 5, 2007 by American Woman

[Guest American Woman]

I think you has misunderstand the reaction of Chinese government. The refusal means "we don't like some your government's action", and ther permission later means "we don't want to punish the innocents."

It could mean "we don't want to punish the innocents." It could also mean 'we realize we made a mistake by refusing entry and would like to correct that mistake.'

Accorting another article I read, some journalists and familiy numbers waited at port, but the carrier did not arrive at time. When the journalist asked a American consulate official wheather the port call had been canceled and the official answerd it was just "delayed". If the article is the turth, it hints that the Kitty Hawk had left while Amercian diplomats were negotiating with Chinese government, it is interesting.

I haven't read any articles that have said that. I would have to read the article myself in order to form an opinion on it. Do you have a link?

Are you sure that the decision of the battle group left Hong Kong was made by American government, or just by navy, or only by the commander of the battle group?

I'm assuming it was made by the commander after being refused entry, but admittedly I have no knowledge of military protocol regarding who would make such a decision.

Anyway, what's done is done. But China is in the spotlight now with the Olympics coming up. I can't believe it'll be next summer already. Time flies! I was in Beijing when China was vying for the bid, so I know how much it meant when they got it.

[Higgly]

The media here doesn't make stuff up to make China look bad.

Have you ever watched Fox News?

[Guest American Woman]

Have you ever watched Fox News?

No. I don't watch Fox News. Furthemore, Fox News isn't "the American media." But do fill me in. What has Fox News made up about China to make it look bad? And please provide links.

[xul]

I don't doubt that the $$$ the port calls bring in are important to Hong Kong's economy.

Perhaps I did not express my mean clearly. According to some post, Hong Kong total loss in this event is only US $5,000,000, the influence to her whole economy is very slight. I meant there were a certain group of people whose businesses as suppliers of American Navy had begun during British time , and China government had guaranteed Hong Kong citizens their life would not be changed by the event of Hong Kong being returned to China.

I reckon that Amercia government wants to continue these port call for two reason:

1.Though Japan government is an ally of America, but most Japanese treat American troop as occupier and the relationship between American soldiers and local Japanese people is not harmonious. Some conflicts and protests can be seen in newsletters that American army officers and soldiers commited crimes such as rapes and were arrested by Japenese police. But the records of Amercian sailors in Hong Kong were good (I guess it because a drunk might enroll into army but could not get a job on a warship. ) so American sailors can spend their vacation more comfortablely in a hostile-less environment.

2. American government wants to present their "existence" in Hong Kong by these port call. A warship is not only a military weapon but also a political weapon. You would remember President Bush dispatched a carrier outside New York harbor after the terrorists attack. American government also wants to apply the same effect on Hong Kong citizens especially after Hong Kong democratic politicans has just lost a vote in local legislature election.

This is why China government thinks they can revenge Amercia government by halting these port call.

I also realize China has refused entry in the past. But it wasn't a surprise to the U.S. when it happened and I don't know of any instance where ships encountering a storm at sea were denied safe shelter.

Who would be convinced by an American navy warship could be stranded by a little storm? What is the function of those meteorologic satellites? There had ever been thousands of Russian warships sailed across the sea during Cold War, who would shelter them?

The Chinese government has every right to refuse entry, but in light of the circumstances, we have the right to question why, especially since it sounds as if permission for the Kitty Hawk had been granted.

The fact is American government applied the application and China government had never granted it until the last day, they said the port call was refused. The procedure of application of a port call is just like you apply a China visa. You make out some forms to Chinese embassy, tell them which day and where you would visit, and then wait for the result.

Considering the refusal came out too late, perhaps some officals of China government wanted to tease Amercian govenment. But I don't think they knew there were a lot of families waited in the port. Most of chinese do not know Thanksgiving Day. I think that they changed their mind later was really for humanitarian reason.

For example. I have applied immigration application to Canada government. If I though I might be grant by Canada government so I shipped all my belongings to Canada. But when the ship arrived, Canada government told me I was refused. Could I complain Canada government for the situation?

By the way, American government has never given a reason when they reafused a person visiting America. My wife's brother lived in America and his parents have visited Amercian several times. They also got the refusal one or two times. No reason was given. And several weeks later they was granted when they applied the application again. And most Chinese who have visited America suffered the same situation. It seems who would be granted depending upon the visa officer's mood.

Edited December 6, 2007 by xul