Why Toronto Will Not Get

[jdobbin]

As the CFL gets ready to play the Grey Cup in Toronto at the Rogers Center, the collective response in Toronto is a shrug of the shoulders. It has been that way for quite some time.

Some people say that Toronto is a major league city and isn't interested in the CFL and wants an NFL team. The fact of the matter is that the NFL only wants to go to cities that live and breath football and will pay for a gigantic stadium and sell it out in perpetuity.

Toronto does not live and breath football. Unlike places in the U.S., they don't have thousands show up at at a high school game. They don't have 60 to 80,000 show up at a college game. And they certainly don't have 60,000 to 80,000 thousand show up at a pro game.

If the NFL can tell Los Angeles, the second largest city in the U.S., to take a flying leap, they certainly are not going to bend over backwards to help Toronto get a team when they don't have a facility that serves as a football stadium for between 70,000 and 80,000 people. Rogers Centre is too small.

Moreover, the NFL has to wonder just how many people are willing to pay the ticket prices that will sell out an NFL stadium year after year. It is one thing to travel to Buffalo every now and again to watch a game and quite a different thing to buy season tickets year after year.

Then there is the question of the ownership. Not only will the owners have to pay either a huge expansion fee, they will have pay for a huge stadium. I guess this is where the issue of the taxpayer comes up. At the moment, one of the only CFL teams coming up to the kitty for a new stadium is Winnipeg with David Asper. He is asking for $40 million a piece from the province and the feds and a sweet deal from the city as well as the present community owners of the Bombers. What is asking for is chump change compared to what Toronto will need for a new stadium. It is quite possible that the costs will exceed what Skydome cost. If the the taxpayer is very unlucky, it will cost as much as Montreal's Olympic Stadium.

For a team to be successful, they generally have to commit to a $100 million payroll.

It is a very rich sport, requiring very rich owners and requiring a huge committment on the part of the taxpayer. And all of this is contingent on people in the Toronto area coming out each weekend in huge numbers to watch the game. So far all we have seen is a lot of talk and no action. It seems some of the potential owners believe the best way to get a team is to bash the CFL and ensure its demise. I think they should at how the NFL regarded Baltimore while it played in the CFL. They saw that it was a city that loved football, would crawl through broken glass to watch a game and would do anything to make sure they had the right facility and the right owner.

[August1991]

It is a very rich sport, requiring very rich owners and requiring a huge committment on the part of the taxpayer.

As a federal taxpayer, don't count on me. And the last I heard, the mayor of Toronto was broke and needed federal money.

If the city government of Toronto is broke, how could it even contemplate getting involved in such a venture?

[jdobbin]

As a federal taxpayer, don't count on me. And the last I heard, the mayor of Toronto was broke and needed federal money.

If the city government of Toronto is broke, how could it even contemplate getting involved in such a venture?

I hear ya there. It is hard to reconcile such a huge expense when Toronto already received a huge amount of money from the feds, the province and the city for Skydome to the tune of $30 million each. And that came from a honest to good demand for a dome on a rain soaked 1982 Grey Cup at Exhibition Stadium where 7 millions Canadians (a record) watched and where the stadium was packed.

Now, Torontonians don't pack the stadium for football now and think that somehow the governments are going to kick in money so that billionaires can manage a team of multimillionaires and hope that they can get 70,000 well off people to pack the stadium forever.

[August1991]

Now, Torontonians don't pack the stadium for football now and think that somehow the governments are going to kick in money so that billionaires can manage a team of multimillionaires and hope that they can get 70,000 well off people to pack the stadium forever.

Torontonians don't pack the stadium yet they think governments will kick in the money? Wait a second. The stadium has 70,000 seats yet Toronto has 3 million people. There's something wrong with that logic.

I suspect rather that a few Torontonians know how to fight modern guerilla warfare and get the money from the rest of us. Some groups in Canada are good at doing that (and by and large, the groups don't speak French because Ottawa doesn't speak French.)

[jdobbin]

Torontonians don't pack the stadium yet they think governments will kick in the money? Wait a second. The stadium has 70,000 seats yet Toronto has 3 million people. There's something wrong with that logic.

I suspect rather that a few Torontonians know how to fight modern guerilla warfare and get the money from the rest of us. Some groups in Canada are good at doing that (and by and large, the groups don't speak French because Ottawa doesn't speak French.)

The present Skydome can seat 52,000 for a football game. The NFL requires new teams to have a facility that will seat 70,000+ and have all the amenities. That could easily be $500 million or more when all is said and done given the high costs of construction.

[M.Dancer]

!) I don't follow the NFL

2)I think the forward pass is overrated

3) The cabledome is a crappy god awful place to watch football or any other sport.....

4 )CFL rocks

5) Toronto FC....now that's football

[guyser]

I suspect , that in time , Toronto will in fact get a franchise. There are too many right now that are not doing well in the markets they occupy. They are, Jacksonville, New Orleans, Minnesota and Buffalo.

Let me state right now that I really dont care if they do or dont. Perhaps if we did I might in time become a fan.

As the CFL gets ready to play the Grey Cup in Toronto at the Rogers Center, the collective response in Toronto is a shrug of the shoulders. It has been that way for quite some time.

Some people say that Toronto is a major league city and isn't interested in the CFL and wants an NFL team. The fact of the matter is that the NFL only wants to go to cities that live and breath football and will pay for a gigantic stadium and sell it out in perpetuity.

I am not so sure there is a collective shrug about the game, but certainly where they have the cameras for feeding the TV shots back to the praries it would appear so. Lets look at this a bit further.

We all know people who live here , almost 50% where born elsewhere and primarly outside of this country. So, what they dont know they dont get excited about. But in areas from Whitby to Barrie to Oakville and beyond there are Argo fans galore and CFL fans too. Attendance this year if I have my facts right, was pretty good for the league. (30G avg?)

The NFL wants a market where the owners have deep pockets, thus the reason that the Bills are coming to TO. Ralph wants to make more money. He isnt, that I know of, losing any money. But since he needs to sell a % of seats prior to a game for it to be on TV, and because the Western NY business market is too small, and depressed, he cant sell the luxury boxes.

The Bills play in the largest stadium in the league (well pretty sure) They dont sell out, and yet if Ralph sells to TO, TO does not even need to sell out to make more money. The prices could easily double (Bills = lowest prices in NFL) and with the luxury boxes sold out, and they would, with the concessions and parking, the TO owners would make out better than Ralph does now.

Toronto does not live and breath football. Unlike places in the U.S., they don't have thousands show up at at a high school game. They don't have 60 to 80,000 show up at a college game. And they certainly don't have 60,000 to 80,000 thousand show up at a pro game.

All true. But look deeper. In most of the places that sell out in the US for a highschool game, it is the only game in town. In fact it is the only thing in town. Shelbyville VS Springfield , it attracts people for bragging rights and the love of the game.

Toronto Marlies AHL team draws horribly as does St Mikes , Brampton, Oshawa (cept when Peterborough play) and Mississauga had to move due to low attendance.

But we all know how hard Leaf tickets are to come by. Why that is...lets leave that one alone...since they are now pathetic.

Anyhow, those teams do not draw but this market is the biggest in the world for hockey.

Dont forget the Vanier Cup sets attendance records in TO.

If the NFL can tell Los Angeles, the second largest city in the U.S., to take a flying leap, they certainly are not going to bend over backwards to help Toronto get a team when they don't have a facility that serves as a football stadium for between 70,000 and 80,000 people. Rogers Centre is too small.

LA will have a team, and likely before TO. But more than one team needs to relocate and the NFL knows they goofed in Jacksonville. So you now have two teams that can relocate without any hassles. Bills come to TO, placating the hard core fans since the drive is easy, and the Jags go to LA.

Rogers Centre is too small.....right now. But give them a year or two in the place with the expected changes and all will be ok until the new stadium is built. More on that in a moment.

Rogers can lower the floor which will make the front row seats usable, since they are not useable for Argos games right now. That puts 15 more rows in play. Smaller field too, that puts temp stands in play.

Moreover, the NFL has to wonder just how many people are willing to pay the ticket prices that will sell out an NFL stadium year after year. It is one thing to travel to Buffalo every now and again to watch a game and quite a different thing to buy season tickets year after year.

IIRC 25% of Bills patrons are from the GTA and further south to the Niagara region. Some of those walk ups, some of those season ticket holders.And that has been historically the same, and recall, a 65 cent dollar trying to make that purchase.

Then there is the question of the ownership. Not only will the owners have to pay either a huge expansion fee, they will have pay for a huge stadium. I guess this is where the issue of the taxpayer comes up. At the moment, one of the only CFL teams coming up to the kitty for a new stadium is Winnipeg with David Asper. He is asking for $40 million a piece from the province and the feds and a sweet deal from the city as well as the present community owners of the Bombers. What is asking for is chump change compared to what Toronto will need for a new stadium. It is quite possible that the costs will exceed what Skydome cost. If the the taxpayer is very unlucky, it will cost as much as Montreal's Olympic Stadium.

Expansion or purchase will be $1Billion. And so far there is a lineup to do so. Add in the cost of a new stadium and add another $500M. But whoever goes and drops the money on the table will not make the mistakes made with Skydome. Does anyone recall that Ford and McDonalds paid $5M for perpetual rights to the stadium? 5M, peanuts but certainly profitable for them, extremely so.

I suspect it will not come to fruition using direct taxpayer money. Some will be provided in concessions, tax advantages etc, but that should be recouped easily through taxes payable in the future.

For a team to be successful, they generally have to commit to a $100 million payroll.

Parity is always the reason why the NFL is successful, albeit less so recently.

Do not forget, before any game has been played, before any ball is snapped in tryouts , hell before the gatorade is bought, all NFL teams will have been given their TV revenue and all payroll will be covered.

It is a very rich sport, requiring very rich owners and requiring a huge committment on the part of the taxpayer. And all of this is contingent on people in the Toronto area coming out each weekend in huge numbers to watch the game. So far all we have seen is a lot of talk and no action.

It is a rich sport. There are only a few games. But I also feel that people will pay and will support the team since there is no end to the wannabees in this city. It is that way in every large city.

Now, are you aware of how close this city came to have a team? How about the fact that new owners were flying in to sign the deal only to get called back at the very last moment? It was New Orleans after Katrina. The owner was fed up, he had nowhere to play , and he say a losing franchise getting worse. apprently $1B was offered and accepted, only to have the NFL step in for PR damage control. From what I know, concessions were made to the TO owners and that is why this talk has heated up.

So, in Rue fashion, I will keep going (jk rue).

I hope for the CFL to remain strong and viable. I dont go to the games, but I like following from a distance. I am surrounded by Ti-Cat fans at my cottage, so it keeps me in formed and interested.

If TO gets a team, and I believe they will, it will spell the death of Argos and TiCats and that would be a shame.

As for the league it should go on, but expand to the east coast , give Ottawa a try again (but please put a bullet into Lieberman et al) and perhaps it can thrive.

[jdobbin]

I suspect , that in time , Toronto will in fact get a franchise. There are too many right now that are not doing well in the markets they occupy. They are, Jacksonville, New Orleans, Minnesota and Buffalo.

Let me state right now that I really dont care if they do or dont. Perhaps if we did I might in time become a fan.

I am not so sure there is a collective shrug about the game, but certainly where they have the cameras for feeding the TV shots back to the praries it would appear so. Lets look at this a bit further.

The NFL wants a market where the owners have deep pockets, thus the reason that the Bills are coming to TO. Ralph wants to make more money. He isnt, that I know of, losing any money. But since he needs to sell a % of seats prior to a game for it to be on TV, and because the Western NY business market is too small, and depressed, he cant sell the luxury boxes.

But we all know how hard Leaf tickets are to come by. Why that is...lets leave that one alone...since they are now pathetic.

Anyhow, those teams do not draw but this market is the biggest in the world for hockey.

Dont forget the Vanier Cup sets attendance records in TO.

Rogers Centre is too small.....right now. But give them a year or two in the place with the expected changes and all will be ok until the new stadium is built. More on that in a moment.

IIRC 25% of Bills patrons are from the GTA and further south to the Niagara region. Some of those walk ups, some of those season ticket holders.And that has been historically the same, and recall, a 65 cent dollar trying to make that purchase.

I suspect it will not come to fruition using direct taxpayer money. Some will be provided in concessions, tax advantages etc, but that should be recouped easily through taxes payable in the future.

Parity is always the reason why the NFL is successful, albeit less so recently.

It is a rich sport. There are only a few games. But I also feel that people will pay and will support the team since there is no end to the wannabees in this city. It is that way in every large city.

Now, are you aware of how close this city came to have a team? How about the fact that new owners were flying in to sign the deal only to get called back at the very last moment? It was New Orleans after Katrina. The owner was fed up, he had nowhere to play , and he say a losing franchise getting worse. apprently $1B was offered and accepted, only to have the NFL step in for PR damage control. From what I know, concessions were made to the TO owners and that is why this talk has heated up.

If TO gets a team, and I believe they will, it will spell the death of Argos and TiCats and that would be a shame.

As for the league it should go on, but expand to the east coast , give Ottawa a try again (but please put a bullet into Lieberman et al) and perhaps it can thrive.

All great commentary here.

There are some NFL teams that are poorer performers than others. However, the NFL won't permit them to move to a small facility like the Rogers Center unless they have a new facility in the works. And by in the works, I mean shovels in the ground and a date for play to begin there.

I don't disagree that there might be Argos fans in Ontario. They just aren't coming to the game nor are they watching it in numbers like they have in the past.

The Buffalo Bills owner is going to auction his team off when he dies. For Toronto to win that team, they will have to bid against others and have a plan of action to move the team. That could be soon or it could be years down the road. It is very iffy since a ownership group may decide to stay at Buffalo's facility since they only pay a $1 a year for it.

The Vanier Cup this time had good attendance. It came because of a Grey Cup package for tickets. Smart marketing. It still is well short of the week in, week out attendance of college ball south of the border.

If no taxpayer money is used for this, I say: great news. It would be the only NFL facility that I know of in recent years to do that though.

I know about the New Orleans situation but I don't think the NFL will let an owner move to Toronto until the issue of a facility is dealt with. It hasn't been yet.

Edited November 25, 2007 by jdobbin

[guyser]

There are some NFL teams that are poorer performers than others. However, the NFL won't permit them to move to a small facility like the Rogers Center unless they have a new facility in the works. And by in the works, I mean shovels in the ground and a date for play to begin there.

Accordinbg to sources, that is not the fact. New Orleans was this close, but the PR machine in the NFL relazed what they would face.

The NFL has wasted (their own words) the money trying to grow NFL Europe. Hundreds of millions and nothing to show for it. They could easily relocate here and make money.

I don't disagree that there might be Argos fans in Ontario. They just aren't coming to the game nor are they watching it in numbers like they have in the past.

The numbers are up in the past few years. Not much over last year (maybe 1000) but since 1992 the team experienced significant drop in attendance going forward until 2002, then a blip, but since then a healthy increase.

The Buffalo Bills owner is going to auction his team off when he dies. For Toronto to win that team, they will have to bid against others and have a plan of action to move the team. That could be soon or it could be years down the road. It is very iffy since a ownership group may decide to stay at Buffalo's facility since they only pay a $1 a year for it.

Yes he will, but part of the reason for the games in TO in the next year or so is to prevent that from occuring. Ralph wants the best money he can get, but he knows the desire of the Bills fans and can make it so TO gets it. Dont forget, there are only a handful of people who can afford it along with the right market. So that negates a lot of people. There are enough people in TO that have the money and the market.

The Vanier Cup this time had good attendance. It came because of a Grey Cup package for tickets. Smart marketing. It still is well short of the week in, week out attendance of college ball south of the border.

All true. But attendance this year is 39,000. More than they can get anywhere. Wait a sec, sold seats that is. They moved it to Hamilton for a few years and Saskatoon, and attendance was well below what they get in TO. If it were yours to make money on.....where to go?

I know about the New Orleans situation but I don't think the NFL will let an owner move to Toronto until the issue of a facility is dealt with. It hasn't been yet.

The NFL brokered the deal but cancelled at the last monent. I dont think they are worried about the stadium. They will get their re-assurnaces.

[jdobbin]

Accordinbg to sources, that is not the fact. New Orleans was this close, but the PR machine in the NFL relazed what they would face.

The numbers are up in the past few years. Not much over last year (maybe 1000) but since 1992 the team experienced significant drop in attendance going forward until 2002, then a blip, but since then a healthy increase.

Yes he will, but part of the reason for the games in TO in the next year or so is to prevent that from occuring. Ralph wants the best money he can get, but he knows the desire of the Bills fans and can make it so TO gets it. Dont forget, there are only a handful of people who can afford it along with the right market. So that negates a lot of people. There are enough people in TO that have the money and the market.

All true. But attendance this year is 39,000. More than they can get anywhere. Wait a sec, sold seats that is. They moved it to Hamilton for a few years and Saskatoon, and attendance was well below what they get in TO. If it were yours to make money on.....where to go?

I think the NFL brass will come up with quite a few excuses why they can't go into Toronto. I still think a facility will be a hang up. If Toronto people were wealthy enough, they'd be building the stadium now on their own. It would make the move easier. Rogers Center is too small whatever changes are made in my opinion. I don't know that they can get another 20,000 seats there.

Worse, if the city needs Fed help, it risks a backlash from the rest of the country for killing the CFL.

The Buffalo Bills act as if Toronto were part of its market. As long as the owner lives, there will be no move. That could still be years away.

I'd place the Vanier Cup in the same city that hosts the Grey Cup permanently. Market the tickets together.

[guyser]

I think the NFL brass will come up with quite a few excuses why they can't go into Toronto. I still think a facility will be a hang up. If Toronto people were wealthy enough, they'd be building the stadium now on their own. It would make the move easier. Rogers Center is too small whatever changes are made in my opinion. I don't know that they can get another 20,000 seats there.

Then why is the NFL onside with this already?

As for building it now, not a chance. Get the team, then build as it is the only way.

Worse, if the city needs Fed help, it risks a backlash from the rest of the country for killing the CFL.

It would in any case be provincial money as told to me.

The Buffalo Bills act as if Toronto were part of its market. As long as the owner lives, there will be no move. That could still be years away.

Except they are playing in TO in the year after next. There will be 2 home games + a bunch of pre-season . They are starting small and then moving up. Part of it I understand is to guage the market reaction in Buffalo. So far not much a reaction. I think they are resigned to the fact.

I'd place the Vanier Cup in the same city that hosts the Grey Cup permanently. Market the tickets together.

Kind of a good move, but it backfires when Edmonton wants it, or Winnepeg wants in, unless those teams are in it, as the market is too small. So many come from here and go to school out of province they can count on some numbers coming home to see mom and dad AND going to the game.

[jdobbin]

Then why is the NFL onside with this already?

As for building it now, not a chance. Get the team, then build as it is the only way.

It would in any case be provincial money as told to me.

Except they are playing in TO in the year after next. There will be 2 home games + a bunch of pre-season . They are starting small and then moving up. Part of it I understand is to guage the market reaction in Buffalo. So far not much a reaction. I think they are resigned to the fact.

Kind of a good move, but it backfires when Edmonton wants it, or Winnepeg wants in, unless those teams are in it, as the market is too small. So many come from here and go to school out of province they can count on some numbers coming home to see mom and dad AND going to the game.

If they were on board, they would be announcing a naming a team and picking out the colours. They are a long way off from that. Having the Buffalo Bills play a few games in Toronto is just solidifying Buffalo's market, in my view.

If it is just provincial money, fine by me. I doubt it though.

I have no doubt that Edmonton and Winnipeg if they hosted the Vanier would still get 20,000 to 30,000 tickets sold, especially if marketed with the Grey Cup.