Natives win title and rights to large swath of B.C. land

[jennie]

Interior natives win title and rights to large swath of B.C. land

Wed Nov 21, 6:15 PM

By Scott Sutherland, The Canadian Press

VICTORIA - Six Interior First Nations are hailing the end of a 17-year legal fight as a victory for aboriginal rights, title and control of native territory in British Columbia's Cariboo-Chilcotin region.

However the B.C. government says the court decision is non-binding and should be used as a basis for negotiating land use and other First Nations rights. In a 485-page decision, B.C. Supreme Court Justice David Vickers has ruled aboriginal title does exist inside and outside the large area claimed by the Tsilhqot'in bands.

The trial started in November 2002, took 339 days to complete and looked back at 200 years of native history.

The federal and provincial governments paid almost $30 million in legal costs after Vickers ruled the governments must also pay for the First Nations legal fees.

"The province has no jurisdiction to extinguish aboriginal title," Vickers wrote.

He ruled the group has the right to hunt and trap birds and animals throughout the 2,000-square-kilometre claim area.

The court also agreed the Tsilhqot'in can capture and use wild horses for transportation and work.

"These rights have been continuous since pre-contact time which the court determines was 1793," Vickers states.

Jack Woodward, a lawyer for the Tsilhqot'in, said the decision on aboriginal rights is unprecedented.

"It gives an outstanding amount of power to the First Nation to control their own territory."

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/071121/...n&printer=1

It is fascinating how the court makes these decisions.

And it is a huge wakeup call to Canada to deal realistically, in good faith with native claims (for a change)! IMO

Edited November 22, 2007 by jennie

[M.Dancer]

Given that the land claims anount to more land that is in BC to begin with, I think it would be fun if we gave them stone axes and spears and ask then to settle their competing claims in a traditional fashion.

[jennie]

Given that the land claims anount to more land that is in BC to begin with, I think it would be fun if we gave them stone axes and spears and ask then to settle their competing claims in a traditional fashion.

Ya well I think you are an ignorant pig.

Come on aho's!!! Let's hear you whine about the RULE OF LAW now!!!

Edited November 22, 2007 by jennie

[Riverwind]

Interior natives win title and rights to large swath of B.C. land

Your headline is false. The native group won nothing. What they did get is a non-binding opinion from a judge that they probably have some abstract claim of aboriginal title over the land. Here is another view on the ruling:

http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolonis...846&k=61740

It may be a fine point, but he didn't just rule out the Tsilhqot'in argument for aboriginal title. What he said exactly was; "I have been unable to make a declaration of Tsilhqot'in aboriginal title."

The inference is he would have if he could have. But it apparently got hung up on the plaintiff's all-or-nothing position, and they lost on fairly narrow grounds. Their claim for damages was denied as well. The justice offered the opinion that aboriginal title exists in some abstract sense, which the plaintiffs will claim as a victory. But it was a small-o opinion, not a definitive verdict.

To boil it down, he would have found the band had title, if he could. And if he had, it would have shredded B.C. forestry policy and set a new benchmark for what aboriginal title means. But he couldn't.

And it is a huge wakeup call to Canada to deal realistically, in good faith with native claims (for a change)! IMO

Good faith negotiations is a two way street. Many of the negotations are stalled because natives refuse to budge on issues such as taxation.

[noahbody]

The court also agreed the Tsilhqot'in can capture and use wild horses for transportation and work.

...The courtroom broke out into laughter when the lawyer for the Tsilhqot'in interrupted the judge saying, "Work? What's work?"

[AngusThermopyle]

Jennie, for one who becomes indignant at any imagined slight you certainly enjoy slinging no-mind type insults around. Do you see anyone else around here calling you such names or acting like a spoilt ten year old? You dissapoint me when you behave as such, certainly you don't inspire me to listen to anything you have to say.

It would be nice if you could show a little more decorum toward other members, don't you think?

[jennie]

Jennie, for one who becomes indignant at any imagined slight you certainly enjoy slinging no-mind type insults around. Do you see anyone else around here calling you such names or acting like a spoilt ten year old? You dissapoint me when you behave as such, certainly you don't inspire me to listen to anything you have to say.

It would be nice if you could show a little more decorum toward other members, don't you think?

You mean I should be more 'decorous' like M.Dancer in this disgusting racial stereotype post?

Given that the land claims anount to more land that is in BC to begin with, I think it would be fun if we gave them stone axes and spears and ask then to settle their competing claims in a traditional fashion.

Oh yes, you have a shining tradition of decorum here!

[jennie]

Your headline is false. The native group won nothing. What they did get is a non-binding opinion from a judge that they probably have some abstract claim of aboriginal title over the land. Here is another view on the ruling:

http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolonis...846&k=61740

Good faith negotiations is a two way street. Many of the negotations are stalled because natives refuse to budge on issues such as taxation.

And so they should be. It is about sovereignty, afterall, with Canada constantly trying to undermine what is, in fact, the law. I am glad they are not falling for the 'divide and conquer' routine this time. Only one band (Tsawassen?) fell for it as I recall, and I'll bet they regret it.

Canada has no legal right to tax them.

They won aboriginal rights over the whole territory. That is huge.

The headline belongs to CP.

Edited November 22, 2007 by jennie

[AngusThermopyle]

Oh yes, you have a shining tradition of decorum here! dry.gif

So because you have issues with a statement made by one person you now decide to paint everyone with the same brush. I know you'll disagree but such behaviour would appear at best to border on racism.

Or is discrimination and racism selective? Can it only be applied to certain groups and not all. If that is the case then we have a conundrum here. It would indicate that those who claim to be anti racist are in fact being racist by the very act of being anti racist.

[jennie]

So because you have issues with a statement made by one person you now decide to paint everyone with the same brush. I know you'll disagree but such behaviour would appear at best to border on racism.

Or is discrimination and racism selective? Can it only be applied to certain groups and not all. If that is the case then we have a conundrum here. It would indicate that those who claim to be anti racist are in fact being racist by the very act of being anti racist.

I think it would be fun if we gave them stone axes and spears and ask then to settle their competing claims in a traditional fashion.

I think it would be fun if we gave all the white supremacists here their own white island. I am sure there's an empty iceberg somewhere with their name on it!

moderate that, Angus.

You do know your board is infected with white supremacists, don't you?

You do know that these are not 'mainstream' conservative opinions you support on here, right?

[Moxie]

Quote from article: He ruled the group has the right to hunt and trap birds and animals throughout the 2,000-square-kilometre claim area.

The court also agreed the Tsilhqot'in can capture and use wild horses for transportation and work.

"These rights have been continuous since pre-contact time which the court determines was 1793," Vickers states.

So how does this equate with "Winning" anything, they can hunt and fish and capture wild horses to eat. I cannot see Natives having horseback riding skills anymore. Natives in NS have the right to hunt and fish on Crown Land, off season for personal use only. Doesn't seem like much of a victory does it?

On a side note when the Government announced they were closing the base in Portage La Prairie the local natives decreed it's was "Thier Land" with not a shread of proof. There was quite a broo haha for a while, tents and drums and demands in the end they didn't have a leg to stand on.

I believe in honouring the treaties if "Evidence Exists" there was a treaty, however Oral History isn't evidence it's fables. I like to see the government "Get it done" and let the Natives depend on their own resources. Enough is enough, enough already.

[AngusThermopyle]

You do know your board is infected with white supremacists, don't you?

You do know that these are not 'mainstream' conservative opinions you support on here, right?

Actually Jennie, its not my board, I just like you am a guest here. As for your White Supremacist rhetoric, well I know no such thing. I do believe your perception may be slightly coloured by your obvious zeal.

I really dont think I'm a White Supremacist. I do know that many times over the years I have literally put my life on the line to help those of other races, some of them of a much darker hue than myself. Can you say as much Jennie? Or do all your efforts amount to posting on a forum and standing around gabbing at some roadblock?

I do know however that where I live these views are indeed very much mainstream. I'm curious to know how you can make such assertions as fact considering they span such a vast nation.

[Posit]

"...however Oral History isn't evidence it's fables."

Fortunately, you don't know what you are talking about. The SCC - the highest court of the land - has ruled that oral history is to be given as much weight and sometimes more weight than the British written history. Seems those British and early Canadian writers held a penchant for telling fairy tales.

[AngusThermopyle]

Seems those British and early Canadian writers held a penchant for telling fairy tales

If that is to be taken at face value then it would appear our current Natives have learned the lesson well and far surpassed the teachers.

[Riverwind]

They won aboriginal rights over the whole territory. That is huge.

They won hunting and trapping rights.

This judgement has actually re-enforced something I have been saying over and over again:

"However, by the same token, the recognition of historical title, while a necessary precondition for modern reconciliation, is not in itself a sufficient basis for reconciliation, which must take into account a range of other factors. So, for example, to suggest that historical aboriginal title gives rise to modern rights that automatically trump third party and public interests constitutes an attempt to remedy one grave injustice by committing another." p453

In other words, the judge is saying that aboriginal title is not absolute and that the interests of the broader society *must* be considered. Aboriginal groups that do not understand this will likely get no where in the courts or at the negotiating table.

[jennie]

They won hunting and trapping rights.

This judgement has actually re-enforced something I have been saying over and over again:

"However, by the same token, the recognition of historical title, while a necessary precondition for modern reconciliation, is not in itself a sufficient basis for reconciliation, which must take into account a range of other factors. So, for example, to suggest that historical aboriginal title gives rise to modern rights that automatically trump third party and public interests constitutes an attempt to remedy one grave injustice by committing another." p453

In other words, the judge is saying that aboriginal title is not absolute and that the interests of the broader society *must* be considered. Aboriginal groups that do not understand this will likely get no where in the courts or at the negotiating table.

Depends what you think they are looking for, Riv.

I think they are looking for a share, a say, environmental protection.

You think they are looking only for money and power, I expect, because that is all you understand. Greedy people always think others are out to get their share.

Never occurs to them some people just want justice and peace.

[Riverwind]

You think they are looking only for money and power

....

Never occurs to them some people just want justice and peace.

ROTFL. That is rich coming from someone who has repeatedly defended Six Nations attempt to extort money from land owners Calendonia. These issues always have and always will come down to money because aboriginals don't want to live off the land anymore - they want access to all of the benefits of a modern lifestyle and that requires money.

[Moxie]

ROTFL. That is rich coming from someone who has repeatedly defended Six Nations attempt to extort money from land owners Calendonia. These issues always have and always will come down to money because aboriginals don't want to live off the land anymore - they want access to all of the benefits of a modern lifestyle and that requires money.

Riverwind it's not so much "Don't want to live off the land" it's more like aren't qualified for the job. In NS we spend millions teaching them how to fish for a living, how's that for pityful. They've let their cultural skills lapse and we have to retrain them to live in the year 1810. They don't know how to hunt, fish or work the land but they lament the loss of their culture. Who's to blame? Them, sitting idle reliving the glory days and blaming "The White Man" is hypocrisy at it's finests.

[jennie]

ROTFL. That is rich coming from someone who has repeatedly defended Six Nations attempt to extort money from land owners Calendonia. These issues always have and always will come down to money because aboriginals don't want to live off the land anymore - they want access to all of the benefits of a modern lifestyle and that requires money.

Like I said ... the greedy only understand greed.

thanks for proving my point.

Edited November 23, 2007 by jennie

[M.Dancer]

You mean I should be more 'decorous' like M.Dancer in this disgusting racial stereotype post?

[/b][/

Fair enough...sell them flintlocks and let them be on...which ever traditional nation captures the most slaves wins...

Of course, flint is more traditional.....but no so traditional it seems if you are hunting endangerd whales.......

[M.Dancer]

You do know your board is infected with white supremacists, don't you?

Who are you calling white?

Who are you to stand in the way of the traditional first nation occupations? Hunting, fishing tribal warfareIt is only because europeans stuck their nose in where it don't belong that foirst nations lost their competitive edge. They emasculate them. They should resume their traditional hostilities with each other and european cultural supremist like you shouldn't stand in their way.

[jennie]

Fair enough...sell them flintlocks and let them be on...which ever traditional nation captures the most slaves wins...

Of course, flint is more traditional.....but no so traditional it seems if you are hunting endangerd whales.......

Just as ignorant.

The courts do not interpret the treaties literally, but in the modern context. For example, Indigenous communities received the same government "medicine kit" as settler communities as part of an agreement back then. Now, that translates into free health care the same as it has evolved for us.

A small minority of Canadians have tried to convince themselves of the superiority if the Euro culture, choosing to believe that we had a right to usurp their land for our profit. That minority is now wailing and gnashing teeth because the courts do not agree with their "superiority" rights. Lashing out by denigrating Indigenous People, as you and Riverwind do here, is petty and unacceptable in decent society, imo.

Riverwind, perhaps you would like to explain why HUNDREDS of developers have no problem with dealing with the HDI, and why only TWO local shoestring operations have caused a scene? Perhaps you would like to explain why these two yahoos refuse to search their titles? They say Ontario guarantees their titles. Ontario says: Consult with the HDI.

Edited November 23, 2007 by jennie

[Riverwind]

Riverwind, perhaps you would like to explain why HUNDREDS of developers have no problem with dealing with the HDI, and why only TWO local shoestring operations have caused a scene?

The majority if businesses in Al Capone's Chicago had no problem paying Capone for his 'protection' services. They simply treated it as a cost of doing business. Does that mean Al Capone was justifed?

It appears the judge who made this ruling is a partisan NDP flack: http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/columni...0090dfa&p=2

Not long after his stint as deputy attorney-general, Vickers sought the leadership of the B.C. New Democratic Party, declaring: "I have been a democratic socialist since my university days."

This case should go to the supreme court of canada. Such issues are too important to be decided by a single judge with a political adgenda. Edited November 24, 2007 by Riverwind

[geoffrey]

A small minority of Canadians have tried to convince themselves of the superiority if the Euro culture, choosing to believe that we had a right to usurp their land for our profit.

By all means, a Tepee and death by 30 awaits you with open arms. I'll gladly fork out some cash and buy you as much land as you want in a godforesaken nowhereland if you promise to never come back to society or ask for anything. I'll even throw in a spear, with a stone point. Maybe even some pelts you can wear about.

If Indian culture is so superior, where the hell is their leadership now?

Edited November 24, 2007 by geoffrey

[sideshow]

I notice that the starter of this thread is banned. In any event, I don't think the issue of superiority of culture is really an issue.....because for better or worse, the "culture" that we live in now is a blend of many many cultures....and the "whites" that stole the land from the "indians" didnt live as we do now either.

Yes the indians have gotten lazy and forgotten their values, but so have the whites. People in general dont know how to survive without handouts....they simply want to be spoon fed everything.

The aboriginals will NEVER go back to their old way of live. This may be unfortunate in some views but its reality. And you cant have your cake and eat it too. I didnt steal anyones property. I shouldnt have to pay someone else for a theft that happened a hundred years ago.

Cut the ties that bind. Tough love sucks, but sometimes its the best thing. Kill the reserves, and welfare traps. Give the people something. Make it valuable. Let them work it, sell it whatever. And tax em to death just like the rest of us. Just make sure it goes to individuals directly and not to the chiefs to distribute. Because they already have enough riches. Just like the white chiefs do.