Capital Punishment

[Hydraboss]

- are they creepy types who would suffer a deviant errection during the act.

- he could then feel confident that he could have sex with his wife that night or get something a little extra ordinary from his mistress or boyfriend or what ever the case would be with a man who would make such a damning and foolish statement -

Forgot to add that I'm in favor of the death penalty because I want to get a deviant errection and get laid. Sorry for the oversight.

[Oleg Bach]

- are they creepy types who would suffer a deviant errection during the act.

- he could then feel confident that he could have sex with his wife that night or get something a little extra ordinary from his mistress or boyfriend or what ever the case would be with a man who would make such a damning and foolish statement -

Forgot to add that I'm in favor of the death penalty because I want to get a deviant errection and get laid. Sorry for the oversight.

The creation of humans through sex sometimes gets crossed in some with the destruction of humans...just wondering if there were any confused and sexually dysfucntional people here? Thanks for clearing the air...just being a provoceteur...hope I spelled that right - terrible at French...what's that French thing about anyway? Some sort of agreement not to raid galleons owned by the Spanish staffed by French crews of privateers? Don't get it - besides...they are kind of like a country stuck in the centre of a nation - real bad planning.

[Oleg Bach]

The creation of humans through sex sometimes gets crossed in some with the destruction of humans...just wondering if there were any confused and sexually dysfucntional people here? Thanks for clearing the air...just being a provoceteur...hope I spelled that right - terrible at French...what's that French thing about anyway? Some sort of agreement not to raid galleons owned by the Spanish staffed by French crews of privateers? Don't get it - besides...they are kind of like a country stuck in the centre of a nation - real bad planning.

Oh I forgot - killing people is bad....you are either bad or good and not both..so you either kill constantly or not at all - murdering crazies are not our problem- just lock em up and let them knit cell phone holders or something....an evolved society takes care of it's weakest members - killers don't kill because they are strong but because they are weak...just a bad bad idea - China likes it and there is profit in it - go live there.

[Wilber]

To be honest, when it comes to the bottom line, the fear of putting an innocent person to death is really what makes me against the death penalty. I struggle with the 'it makes us just like them' line of thought because it really doesn't. We have a reason for taking that person's life-- the reason being that they are a murderer. I still have to say I'm against it for moral reasons too, but I can understand why others wouldn't be. When it's done humanely, I really don't think it's the barbaric act that so many make it out to be.

First degree murder is the charge for the premeditated taking of a human life. The death penalty is also the premeditated taking of a human life. That alone makes us more like them. By advocating the death penalty a person is saying that one action is more moral than the other. I say they are both immoral. I would also say that justifying the death penalty is more hypocritical because murderers don't generally claim a moral high ground in order to justify their actions.

You speak of the humaneness of putting someone to death like it was euthanizing a sick old dog or putting down a pit bull which has just mauled someone to death. It's tempting to look at some of the more violent people in our society in that manner but the fact is we don't put the killing of animals on the same level as the killing of humans. If we did, we would all be vegetarians.

[White Doors]

There are so many ways of looking at the death sentence. Anyone who's given it serious thought knows it goes beyond "revenge." Like I said, we could say our whole penal system is based on revenge.

I got into a discussion about the death penalty last night, bringing up this man who "premeditated" a way to kill his three sons as "punishment" for his ex-wife. He's guilty without a doubt, so there's no chance of putting an innocent man to death in this icase.

So here are some of the responses I got. "Death is too good for him. Once he's dead, he won't be suffering" (Sounds like life in prison can be based on revenge). A response to that-- "Not if you believe in hell." Another response-- "if you don't believe in hell but believe in an afer life, you're reuniting him with his kids." Another response-- "the sentence should fit the crime. A human life is the most valuable thing on this earth, and if it's not respected as such, any sentence other than death diminishes the value of human life." Another comment-- "putting someone like a child rapist or a serial killer in prison for life is a death sentence for them; a death that's not nearly as comfortable as the death sentence." So is that more moral? More humane?

To be honest, when it comes to the bottom line, the fear of putting an innocent person to death is really what makes me against the death penalty. I struggle with the 'it makes us just like them' line of thought because it really doesn't. We have a reason for taking that person's life-- the reason being that they are a murderer. I still have to say I'm against it for moral reasons too, but I can understand why others wouldn't be. When it's done humanely, I really don't think it's the barbaric act that so many make it out to be.

I try to imagine being the mother of those boys. I try to imagine what it would feel like to send my kids off with Daddy, knowing they love and trust him, and then having him kill them. How can anyone, any parent here, not say they'd want to kill him? Is "anger" the same thing as "revenge?" I don't think so. HIS action was revenge. I don't think giving someone what they deserve is revenge. I think it's holding them accountable to their actions.

My state doesn't have the death penalty, so we're not any different from Canadians in that respect, but I do still give it thought, and I don't automatically say "no" to the death sentence because it's perceived as the "right, humane, moral" answer and I don't accuse those who support it of doing so out of nothing other than revenge. That's a pretty shallow way of looking at it, imo.

excellent post!

I agree 100%. People who can label a complex issue such as the death penalty as 'good' or 'bad' betray a shallow, lazy thinking pattern.

[Guest American Woman]

First degree murder is the charge for the premeditated taking of a human life. The death penalty is also the premeditated taking of a human life. That alone makes us more like them.

First degree murder is the charge for the premeditated taking of an innocent human life. The death penalty is the premeditated taking of a human life guilty of taking an innocent life. So no, that does not make us like them.

Looking at another scenario: if I take someone off the street and lock them up in my basement for years, I would be guilty of a crime, and as such would most likely be locked up. Would that make the two situations similar? Would that make the justice system like me since we both locked someone up?

By advocating the death penalty a person is saying that one action is more moral than the other. I say they are both immoral. I would also say that justifying the death penalty is more hypocritical because murderers don't generally claim a moral high ground in order to justify their actions.

Is one action more moral than the other in my example above? I'd say yes, and I'm guessing you'd have to agree. As for murderers generally not claiming a moral high ground in order to justify their actions, have you ever heard the excuses murderers have come up with? Have you any idea how many insist they are innocent?- Have you heard some of the denials? The man who killed his children denies it, saying how terrible it is for him to have lost his children. Tell me how that's taking the 'moral high road.'

You speak of the humaneness of putting someone to death like it was euthanizing a sick old dog or putting down a pit bull which has just mauled someone to death. It's tempting to look at some of the more violent people in our society in that manner but the fact is we don't put the killing of animals on the same level as the killing of humans. If we did, we would all be vegetarians.

I speak of the humaneness of putting someone to death in the same way we try to make incarceration as humane as possible. I've mentioned earlier that some people chose euthanasia over waiting for a natural death; that is the way I am speaking of it. So no, I most definitely do not think of it like it was putting down a sick old dog or a pit bull who has just mauled someone to death. It never even occured to me to look at "some of the more violent people in our society in that manner." The fact is, I don't put the killing of animals on the same level as humans; the thought, as I said, never even occured to me. That's your take on it.

Edited November 19, 2007 by American Woman

[Wilber]

First degree murder is the charge for the premeditated taking of an innocent human life. The death penalty is the premeditated taking of a human life guilty of taking an innocent life. So no, that does not make us like them.

It is an eye for an eye justice no matter how you try to rationalize it. It is something we choose to do, it is not forced upon us. I've never said it makes us like them, just that it moves us closer to their level.

Looking at another scenario: if I take someone off the street and lock them up in my basement for years, I would be guilty of a crime, and as such would most likely be locked up. Would that make the two situations similar? Would that make the justice system like me since we both locked someone up?

Back to retribution again. Eye for an eye justice. We lock them up so they can't do it again, to safeguard society. We don't have to kill someone in order to do that.

Is one action more moral than the other in my example above? I'd say yes, and I'm guessing you'd have to agree.

More moral or less immoral? I have said that both are immoral.

I

speak of the humaneness of putting someone to death in the same way we try to make incarceration as humane as possible. I've mentioned earlier that some people chose euthanasia over waiting for a natural death; that is the way I am speaking of it. So no, I most definitely do not think of it like it was putting down a sick old dog or a pit bull who has just mauled someone to death. It never even occured to me to look at "some of the more violent people in our society in that manner." The fact is, I don't put the killing of animals on the same level as humans; the thought, as I said, never even occured to me. That's your take on it.

Of course you look at some of the more violent people in our society that manner. You site examples where you think it is justified all the time. I certainly don't think you put the less violent people in that category.

As far as people choosing voluntary euthanasia goes, should we call capital punishment involuntary euthanasia? A term many struggle with because of the difficulty of drawing the line between that and murder. We don't give the convicted the right of choice when it comes to their sentence just as we don't give an animal a choice when we put it down. You may not draw that parallel personally but it is there never the less.

[jennie]

Hugo,

I respect the consistency of your beliefs about abortion and capital punishment.

But I cannot agree with you that all human life is "valuable." The person who killed Laci Peterson and her full term baby may be "precious" to you but not to me. Also, by not implementing the death penalty, in my opinion, shows a clear disregard for the value of the murder victim's life and potential murder victim's life whose life might be spared because a criminal has second thoughts about paying for his evil deed with his life.

I believe that if mercy is to be shown for the life of a cold blooded murderer, it should come in the hereafter and be doled out by a higher power. This is a mortal world and the best we mortals can do is to dispense justice. Striving for a "compassionate" society is not high on my list. Striving for a fair society is important to me.

You say:

"Dangerous slope" is always acquiescing to the life before you. Abolishing the death penalty but allowing abortion on demand are 2 examples of this "slippery slope" behaviour in my opinion.

You say:

I disagree. Prisoners can still vote which is one of the most valued "rights" in a democracy. Prisoners can have conjugal rights with a significant other and the state even provides privacy and condoms to honour this basic human need. Prisoners get free shelter, food, education, health care, entertainment, legal aid.

The only "freedom" constrained is free movement. And if we put no teeth into our laws,like death penalty for murder, increasingly, citizens' free movement is constrained because of criminals who do not have any fear consequences.

Discussions about capital punishment rarely have people reaching consesus.

For now, Hugo, abolitionists like you outnumber pro-death penalty folks like me. But maybe as violent crime increases, my group may come to outnumber yours and capital punishment will be reinstated.

Good debate though, Hugo.

Seems to me Morgan that you are saying that if crime becomes more violent, law must become more violent too. Not sure I agree with that.

I remember an alliance yahoo who bleated about stoning and thrashing or was it whipping young offenders. I wrote and asked him whether he would be doing the whipping himself, because he sounded all het up about that! Well, I ask the same of people who believe in the death penalty: Are you planning to be the hired killer?

Seems to me that if you are demanding or supporting it, you'd better be willing to carry it out too ... or is that to be pawned off on some poor public servant?

[Hydraboss]

Jennie, you asked the question so here's the answer:

... As for the rest, I believe I was quite clear that I AM prepared to pull the switch. One caveat though, the job has to pay more than I'm making now. So that should end that part of your argument. If anyone needs to be put to death, I'm be your trigger man. Throw the switch, hit the injection button, release the gallows. Whatever.

Any others?