NCC apologizes and removes portrait that offends Francophones

[Argus]

From link above:

This is the remarkable fact - that no one at the NCC put a stop to this earlier. What were they thinking?

One imagines a future NCC in the year 2127 putting up a portrait of Jacques Parizeau to celebrate Canada's unity or a portrait of Louis Riel to recognize respect for minorities.

Why not? I am quite sure that the walls of the National Assembly are filled with portraits of bigoted Francophone nationalists who hated Anglophones and had nothing good to say about them.

I'm quite sure no one in Quebec will care, either, what the Anglophones think of that.

Including you.

Edited November 7, 2007 by Argus

[M.Dancer]

I'm a little confused here. You started out mocking him for calling Durham's report "one the greatest state papers" and now that you've discovered he took that from an encyclopedia you're abandoning that tack and instead accusing him of plagerism. Have I got that right?

So do you have any actual opinion on the topic - which is Lord Durham's portrait being taken down?

No..not quite. I knew he plagiarized it, I was fishing to see if he brought his shovel with him.

Back to the topic....Durham is offensive to many people because of his personal opinions....sort of like having a Buchanon Day becasue he was an English Governor General here and being oblivious of his racist views. Then everyone gets miffed that some canadians object to honouring him in someway and others like Leafless would jump up and down in mock outrage that he deserved honour because he was once GG.

[M.Dancer]

Well... yes, by our present standards, of course. And by our present standards virtually every French Canadian of the time was an ignorant, superstitious, illiterate peasant.

So what's your point again?

I think my point is that people who think that French Canadians were ignorant etc etc etc are no better than Durham, certainly worse than him and well, ill informed.

[AngusThermopyle]

I think my point is that people who think that French Canadians were ignorant etc etc etc are no better than Durham, certainly worse than him and well, ill informed.

I think the point is that any who think the common man of that time was not ignorant are extremely ill informed. That would include both French and English.

Do you honestly believe that the common people of that time were well educated and all participated in some form of higher education? The simple fact is that most people were unschooled and illiterate. To deny this is to blind oneself to historical fact.

[AngusThermopyle]

Sorry, double post.

Edited November 7, 2007 by AngusThermopyle

[M.Dancer]

I think the point is that any who think the common man of that time was not ignorant are extremely ill informed. That would include both French and English.

Do you honestly believe that the common people of that time were well educated and all participated in some form of higher education? The simple fact is that most people were unschooled and illiterate. To deny this is to blind oneself to historical fact.

No that isn't my belief....what I take umbrage with is the suggetion that all French Canadians were ignorant, ill informed..un educated etc etc....and that is what Leafless and his ilk are suggeting.

Of course Quebecers were as educated as any in Canada...one of Canada's oldest universities traces it's roots to the 17th century....and of course it was only the upper classes like any in Canada that went.

[g_bambino]

Back to the topic....Durham is offensive to many people because of his personal opinions....sort of like having a Buchanon Day becasue he was an English Governor General here and being oblivious of his racist views. Then everyone gets miffed that some canadians object to honouring him in someway and others like Leafless would jump up and down in mock outrage that he deserved honour because he was once GG.

There are many historical figures we celebrate today who held views that would be considered bigoted by our modern standards. Three that immediately come to mind:

- Tommy Douglas: once advocated the sterilization of the mentally disabled

- Emily Murphy: advocated the sterilization of the mentally insane; specifically singled out Chinese people as the source of drug problems; supported racial hierarchies

- Mackenzie King: supported limitations on Jewish immigrants during and after WWII; upheld internment and deportation of Japanese-Canadians during WWII; did not allow the return of deportees after the war's end

So, then, we're obviously selective in whom to crucify for their personal opinions and whom to laud in willful ignorance of them, or, at least, with a quiet acceptance wrapped in contextual explanation. In this case, Durham is little different to others in the sense that he expressed an opinion we today find offensive, but in its time was probably relatively commonplace. The only thing different is the modern politics surrounding the whole French-English affair in Canada; a cultural minority already super-sensitively coddled can take advantage of their granted victim status to, without opposition, re-cast the historical perspective of an individual of their choosing.

Charles de Gaulle, the man who once openly, emotionally, and on our own soil, led the charge for Quebec to "liberate" itself from Canada, now has a statue, paid for by public funds, standing overlooking the Plains of Abraham. On the same argument as that which those use against the Durham portraits, should we Anglophone Canadians not cry offence at this permanent reminder of a man who made accusations about us being ethno-cultural oppressors? I doubt these grievances would be properly entertained; so, why should one group's moaning be any more valid than another's?

Edited November 7, 2007 by g_bambino

[M.Dancer]

-Tommy Douglas

- Emily MurphyMackenzie King: supported limitations on Jewish immigrants during and after WWII; upheld internment and deportation of Japanese-Canadians during WWII; did not allow the return of deportees after the war's end

......Charles de Gaulle,

M.King was an absolute nutbar, a ditherer and a fruitcake. It is fitting that his headstone in Mt Pleasent is frequently watered by the area's hounds.....

.....and de Gaulle was a serious A-hole that placed allied troops in jeoprdy becasue of his petty ambitions and personal rivalries.....

Douglas was a socialist...say no more

Murphy? Who?

Edited November 7, 2007 by M.Dancer

[Leafless]

No that isn't my belief....what I take umbrage with is the suggetion that all French Canadians were ignorant, ill informed..un educated etc etc....and that is what Leafless and his ilk are suggeting.

I have lived through the era, even up into the early sixties and know for a fact that the only thing that came out of Quebec in relation to its physical proximity to Ottawa, was labourers and truck drivers and Quebecers whining and crying the blues blaming the English for their self induced problems, political and social.

Maybe Dancer can tell us the reason Quebec did not have a compulsory education prior to 1943.

[Leafless]

GOOD NEWS!

Mr. Laflamme said the NCC plans to put the portrait back up after it consults with historians on a way to "better present" Lord Durham's image, which was presented on the same level as "key capital builders" such as Sir John A. Macdonald, Colonel By, Sir Edmund Head and Queen Victoria.

"He's not on the same level as those key figures," he said. "It's not that we want to edit our history or censor our history."

A new panel -- possibly redesigned -- will be back up within "a couple of weeks," said Mr. Laflamme.

But one leading Canadian intellectual says the incident reveals deeper shortcomings in our approach to a shared history.

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/s...5172457&p=2

Well I think Durham is on the same level because without his recommendations the English in Canada would have probably sought solace and political alignment with their English American Western neighbours and no one could or can predict what the outcome of that one would have been.

Good for Lord Durham and everything British from saving us from the hands of the French.

[M.Dancer]

I have lived through the era, even up into the early sixties and know for a fact that the only thing that came out of Quebec in relation to its physical proximity to Ottawa, was labourers and truck drivers and Quebecers whining and crying the blues blaming the English for their self induced problems, political and social.

Maybe Dancer can tell us the reason Quebec did not have a compulsory education prior to 1943.

WHy would I bother? I am just amazed that these labourers and truck drivers that you rub shoulders with were sophisticated enough to converse about political and social problems, and given that you are limited to one language, that they were able to do so in one that you could understand.....

[Leafless]

WHy would I bother? I am just amazed that these labourers and truck drivers that you rub shoulders with were sophisticated enough to converse about political and social problems, and given that you are limited to one language, that they were able to do so in one that you could understand.....

In this country I don't need to learn no other minority foreign language. Minorities should learn to learn the majority language, an old trick of survival.

The de facto language of Canada and the U.S. is the English language and that is all that is required, except by employers including the federal government that are willing to racially discriminate against the users of the majority English language.

Even if a French Quebec federal politician mandated English and French as being federally official simply shows how dysfunctional our federal government by officializing a foreign language that is no more important than Italian, Chinese or any other used foreign language in Canada.

France is not a country in Canada.

[guyser]

Minorities should learn to learn the majority language, an old trick of survival.

I agree.

Thats why the English learn french in Quebec.

- 82% native french,

-95% fluency in French.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_demographics_of_Quebec

France is not a country in Canada.

Did someone say it was?

[Argus]

No that isn't my belief....what I take umbrage with is the suggetion that all French Canadians were ignorant, ill informed..un educated etc etc....and that is what Leafless and his ilk are suggeting.

Of course Quebecers were as educated as any in Canada...one of Canada's oldest universities traces it's roots to the 17th century....and of course it was only the upper classes like any in Canada that went.

The fact is the cultural value set of the day was, by our standards, racist, bigoted, misogynistic, homophobic, etc. etc. To try and judge their sophistication by our culture is imbecilic. Durham was a great man, a forward looking liberal who contributed greatly to Canada's growth. So what if, like almost all English of the time, he thought England was the centre of the universe and everyone else should adopt the English way of life. I doubt you'd have found a Frenchman who'd not say the same about his home, or a Spaniard or a Japanese. Do we eschew all of them as ignorant rabble unworthy of honors?

Or just the White English guys?

Edited November 7, 2007 by Argus

[M.Dancer]

Or just the White English guys?

Nawwww...just rubes and their strawmen....

[Leafless]

I agree.

Thats why the English learn french in Quebec.

- 82% native french,

-95% fluency in French.

The only minority in Quebec are the French, who are a small minority when compared to those who use the English language in other Canandian provinces. Quebec is still a province in Canada and any calculations involving the French language must include the Canadian population from all provinces combined.

Even your statistics are improperly implied as the English speaking population from your own posted website is only 7.9% indicating that many speak English and the ones that do speak French are forced to by Quebec's French Language Charter' that makes French the 'official language in Quebec'. Of course French official language in Quebec fails to be recognized as official by our OWN federal government and who does nothing to STOP this OPPRESSION and OUTRIGHT RACIAL DISCRIMINATION, against Quebec's SO CALLED MINORITIES.

Did someone say it was?

The whole quote was: "Even if a French Quebec federal politician mandated English and French as being federally official simply shows how dysfunctional our federal government by officializing a foreign language that is no more important than Italian, Chinese or any other used foreign language in Canada.

France is not a country in Canada."

Maybe you can explain on what official basis 'French' was made an official language of Canada because in my mind that would constitute the ONLY reason to make French an official language would be to include the impossibility of France being another country within Canada.

And forget the 'founding nation bit', because that is a false assertion along with Quebec being a 'nation within Canada' because for the simple reason Canada pays Quebec to allow Quebec to retain its cultural aspirations.

Quebec is an artificial society and is NOT a self-sustaining society and is paid for by the majority English speaking society of Canada through a multitude of federal programs and transfer payments.

Quebec should be grateful for letting Canadians to allow its existence rather than behaving in the mannerism of a French country while directly contributing to the dysfunctionality of our federal government, which dramatically shows federalism is not working in Canada for Canadians but mostly to support the political aspirations of a foreign state. Shame, shame shame.

[M.Dancer]

England is not a country in Canada

1/2 wit

[guyser]

The only minority in Quebec are the French, who are a small minority when compared to those who use the English language in other Canandian provinces. Quebec is still a province in Canada and any calculations involving the French language must include the Canadian population from all provinces combined.

Boiled down , since Quebecers and french dominate in Quebec, you pull the "whole country " routine so that your remarks suddenly become valid. Ok cool. We can change things all the time if you so wish.

Even your statistics are improperly implied as the English speaking population from your own posted website is only 7.9% indicating that many speak English and the ones that do speak French are forced to by Quebec's French Language Charter' that makes French the 'official language in Quebec'.

My stats are improperly applied? Those stats are just that. French speaking is 82%. Whats so hard to understand? Oh...they dont fit what you wanted to say.

Maybe you can explain on what official basis 'French' was made an official language of Canada because in my mind that would constitute the ONLY reason to make French an official language would be to include the impossibility of France being another country within Canada.

Huh?

And forget the 'founding nation bit', because that is a false assertion along with Quebec being a 'nation within Canada' because for the simple reason Canada pays Quebec to allow Quebec to retain its cultural aspirations.

Go ahead, try and change history. It was 'founding nation'. And if you think not , I am all ears.

Quebec is an artificial society and is NOT a self-sustaining society and is paid for by the majority English speaking society of Canada through a multitude of federal programs and transfer payments.

Its real alright. And right next door too ! Artificial? Umm no .

I will agree they get more than their fair share , but that does not amke it artificial , which connotates "not real" They are real alright.

Quebec should be grateful for letting Canadians to allow its existence rather than behaving in the mannerism of a French country while directly contributing to the dysfunctionality of our federal government, which dramatically shows federalism is not working in Canada for Canadians but mostly to support the political aspirations of a foreign state. Shame, shame shame.

Quebecers are Canadian. "Allow its existence?" Is that a play from the "Jacques Parizeau Shoot Oneself in the Foot" handbook? Poppycock.

Political aspirations of a foreign state? Crikey mate, what are you on? ...or rather not on?

Do I assume France ?

And if so, what the hell is France wanting to do , aside from nothing with Canada that is?

[Leafless]

England is not a country in Canada

England GAVE US the country Canada and beat the crap out of France.

1/2 t-wit

[Leafless]

Boiled down , since Quebecers and french dominate in Quebec, you pull the "whole country " routine so that your remarks suddenly become valid. Ok cool. We can change things all the time if you so wish.

In the real world Canada is De facto majority English speaking + or - Quebec.

My stats are improperly applied? Those stats are just that. French speaking is 82%. Whats so hard to understand? Oh...they don't fit what you wanted to say.

Then what do your stats have to do with the English in Quebec learning French like you implied originally?

Thats why the English learn french in Quebec.

- 82% native french,

-95% fluency in French.

We all know the ONLY reason English learn French in Quebec is because they are forced to by Quebec's 'French Language Charter' that makes French the 'official language ' throughout the entire province of Quebec and not because 82% are native French or 95% are fluent in French.

Go ahead, try and change history. It was 'founding nation'. And if you think not , I am all ears.

Well let's see, we know we have the English nation. Indians and Eskimos were comprised of several tribes/nations. And then we have the Scots, Irish and Welsh nations.

And of course we have French Canadians with all of them being British, with NONE of them a French nation as it had chosen the 'Treaty of Paris', to abandon all its once held North American territory, 'New France'.

These are facts and all part of history.

Its real alright. And right next door too ! Artificial? Umm no .

You are an arrogant individual to suggest Quebec being a real nationalistic French society when it cannot even support its own French ideologies without the tremendous ongoing help of the federal government.

This failed French society has failed to be a successful self-sustaining French society and is entirely dependent on federalism and the Canadian tax payer for its cultural survival.

Quebecers are Canadian. "Allow its existence?" Is that a play from the "Jacques Parizeau Shoot Oneself in the Foot" handbook? Poppycock.

Political aspirations of a foreign state? Crikey mate, what are you on? ...or rather not on?

Do I assume France ?

Who else, Britain? Of course Quebec has chosen to emulate their home country, France. You mean you have a hard time noticing the cultural connection.

And if so, what the hell is France wanting to do , aside from nothing with Canada that is?

France does have excellent relations with Quebec.

[Argus]

Nawwww...just rubes and their strawmen....

So in other words you really have no defence at all for your knee-jerk attack on this guy?

[M.Dancer]

So in other words you really have no defence at all for your knee-jerk attack on this guy?

What? Other than he is obviously considered an insulting figure? Do you also support the confederate flag flown over the head office of the NAACP?

Hows that straw man tasting?

[Leafless]

What? Other than he is obviously considered an insulting figure? Do you also support the confederate flag flown over the head office of the NAACP?

Win some, lose some!

When your own country gives everything away to the winner, leaves the loser NO other choice but to accept defeat.

Learn to accept the ways of the new ruling authority or be prepared to quickly paddle back to France.

Edited November 9, 2007 by Leafless

[guyser]

...the new ruling authority ...

Would that be the same "new ruling authority" that pulled the picture in the first place?

[Leafless]

Would that be the same "new ruling authority" that pulled the picture in the first place?

Of course not.

Those are only lackey's of traitor Trudeau and his private on going war, 'Battle of the Plains of Abraham' against the majority English speakers of Canada.

Like I said, 'federalism' does not, or cannot work in Canada with Quebec in confederation, but you would never know it with federal politicians that continue to play federal dysfunctional politics, as if everything is 'honkey dorey'.

This belongs in 'Ripley's'.

Edited November 9, 2007 by Leafless