Who Else Could Care Less If Alberta Seperates?

[geoffrey]

It sounds like the mewlings of a few from the "It's all about ME generation", they don't like to share the wealth. Greedy little pigs.

Your going to volunteer to pay more taxes this year just to share your wealth a little more, right?

You do realise the implications to the equalisation forumla when the disparity between Ontario and Alberta grows, right? Our GDP is quickly approaching that of Quebec, with half of the people. The Federal government is going to want too much, much more than we should ever give.

If Alberta was an equal partner in confederation, and we paid in a reasonable amount, maybe even a little higher than everyone else, that'd be ok. But $3,000-4,000 per capita in unreturned transfers to other jurisdictions is completely unacceptable. If Canada can't play at our level, it's time we leave the game. Having an extremely rich, but political unpowered region in a struggling nation is a recipe ripe for disaster.

Look at what happened last time Canada was struggling while Alberta was doing well. Trudeau had Lougheed shut down nearly the entire oil industry. We shouldn't trust Canada, they too are the "ME generation," except they don't generally work for the wealth they get.

BC has a debt but it's budget surplus was over 2B last year and for cast to be 3.2B for the current fiscal year. Tougher times ahead for the forest and tourist industries however with the US economy tanking and the current value of the dollar. But that won't be unique to BC.

Alberta and BC have been the closest economic partners in Canada, historically and especially today. We have the only real provincial free trade agreement, one that the rest of Canada deeply fears. Debt and deficits don't really matter. BC has an innovative economy that is only going to grow with further trade with the Pacific rim. Like Alberta, BC is held back by Eastern minded policies and politics... there is little secret that BC is hugely underrepresenetd in government. BC would be much more successul with Alberta than with Canada. I think your government acknowledged that with the free trade agreement.

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By the way, all of you that say that Alberta would have to make a lumpsum payment to Canada upon leaving for infrastructure... I think it quite the opposite. Alberta has been a net contributor since 1963 and for a couple decades prior. This isn't Quebec. Realistically, Canada should be writting us a sizeable cheque upon our departure. The unreturned Alberta contributions to EI alone would be off the charts.

[Wilber]

Alberta and BC have been the closest economic partners in Canada, historically and especially today. We have the only real provincial free trade agreement, one that the rest of Canada deeply fears. Debt and deficits don't really matter. BC has an innovative economy that is only going to grow with further trade with the Pacific rim. Like Alberta, BC is held back by Eastern minded policies and politics... there is little secret that BC is hugely underrepresenetd in government. BC would be much more successul with Alberta than with Canada. I think your government acknowledged that with the free trade agreement.

That may be so but there is little appetite for separation in BC. BC separatists are a very small but vocal minority. If BC was to become isolated from the rest of Canada it would certainly have to examine its options. Most of our trade is with the US and Pacific Rim countries, not the ROC. BC and Alberta would make a good fit. When it comes to cargo volume Vancouver is the largest port in western North America and Alberta would have unrestricted access to it.

[Guest American Woman]

Is it just the impression one gets from this board, or are provinces constantly talking about/wanting to secede from Canada? I would feel bad if any state left our union. Even Texas!

Seriously, though. Doesn't Canada have the "united we stand" attitude that prevails in America? It may sound kind of corny, but I like that attitude. Seems to me a province/state should have allegience to the union.

[Wilber]

Is it just the impression one gets from this board, or are provinces constantly talking about/wanting to secede from Canada? I would feel bad if any state left our union. Even Texas!

Seriously, though. Doesn't Canada have the "united we stand" attitude that prevails in America? It may sound kind of corny, but I like that attitude. Seems to me a province/state should have allegience to the union.

Our national sport isn't really hockey or lacrosse, it's bitching about each other and you guys. Hard to tell how much of it is really serious.

[bush_cheney2004]

Is it just the impression one gets from this board, or are provinces constantly talking about/wanting to secede from Canada? I would feel bad if any state left our union. Even Texas!

Seriously, though. Doesn't Canada have the "united we stand" attitude that prevails in America? It may sound kind of corny, but I like that attitude. Seems to me a province/state should have allegience to the union.

Canada is not the USA.....the provinces have varied histories and regional interests, and a fundamentally different relationship to the federal government in confederation compared to the US states. In my travels on many Canadian boards, the general observation you have made is evident, from joining the USA to complete separatism.

It is helpful to remember that the Americans fought a bitter war to preserve their union, something that is anathema to Canada and most Canadians.

[Higgly]

There are not as many provinces as states so each one stands out more and each one has its own set of exigencies. Any province that would separate from Canada is crazy. We live in one of the largest countries in the world with all kinds of incredible resources. A province that leaves is giving up everything that all the rest are bringing to the table. Take the Maritimes, for instance. Always net takers in terms of equlization payments. But they bring a huge Atlantic coast to the country. One of those things that can always come in handy

We do love our country (a lot), but every once in awhile we have these snits. Having Quebec in the picture is sort of like being married to someone who thinks they are better than you, but is not good enough to get a better offer elsewhere

One thing that keeps us focussed on our differences is that we don't really have a single unifying issue. Health care comes close but we bicker about how it should be implemented.

However, if the US keeps harassing us over our ownership of the Northwest passage, we might just have one. I think some people would be surprised at how quickly we will pull together over this. Andthat goes for you too Vladimir.

Edited November 4, 2007 by Higgly

[geoffrey]

That may be so but there is little appetite for separation in BC. BC separatists are a very small but vocal minority. If BC was to become isolated from the rest of Canada it would certainly have to examine its options. Most of our trade is with the US and Pacific Rim countries, not the ROC. BC and Alberta would make a good fit. When it comes to cargo volume Vancouver is the largest port in western North America and Alberta would have unrestricted access to it.

There would be little preventing BC from dealing freely with Alberta whether BC remained in Canada or otherwise. Alberta joining NAFTA would actually be comparable to the current trade agreement between the two provinces.

It's rather sad when Alberta would be able to trade more freely with Saskatchewan or Ontario outside of Canada then within it.

[M.Dancer]

There would be little preventing BC from dealing freely with Alberta whether BC remained in Canada or otherwise. Alberta joining NAFTA would actually be comparable to the current trade agreement between the two provinces.

It's rather sad when Alberta would be able to trade more freely with Saskatchewan or Ontario outside of Canada then within it.

That is only true if the assumption is that 1) Alberta could join NAFTA and 2) Alberta wouldn't be subject to trade duties, etc.

[Guest American Woman]

One thing that keeps us focussed on our differences is that we don't really have a single unifying issue. Health care comes close but we bicker about how it should be implemented.

However, if the US keeps harassing us over our ownership of the Northwest passage, we might just have one. I think some people would be surprised at how quickly we will pull together over this. Andthat goes for you too Vladimir.

I'm glad to hear we might be able to help unify your country. We're here to help you in your hour of need. That's what good neighbors are for, after all.

[Higgly]

I'm glad to hear we might be able to help unify your country. We're here to help you in your hour of need. That's what good neighbors are for, after all.

What? You actually think you have some sort of claim on the Northwest Passage? I'll grant you the 12 mile limit around Alaska, but as for the rest of it, you'd be better off helping us fight the Ruskies.

Or did you want another stupid uselss and futile fight up here too?

[Guest American Woman]

What? You actually think you have some sort of claim on the Northwest Passage? I'll grant you the 12 mile limit around Alaska, but as for the rest of it, you'd be better off helping us fight the Ruskies.

Or did you want another stupid uselss and futile fight up here too?

What I want is to help you in your hour of need. I want to continue to help unify your country. Wasn't that clear?

[bush_cheney2004]

What? You actually think you have some sort of claim on the Northwest Passage? I'll grant you the 12 mile limit around Alaska, but as for the rest of it, you'd be better off helping us fight the Ruskies.

Or did you want another stupid uselss and futile fight up here too?

Canada's claim to all that is land and sea from 60th to 120th meridian to the frickin' North Pole is not defensible, legally or militarily. Good luck with that.....

[Wilber]

That is only true if the assumption is that 1) Alberta could join NAFTA and 2) Alberta wouldn't be subject to trade duties, etc.

That is a pretty safe assumption IMO.

[fellowtraveller]

That is a pretty safe assumption IMO.

What is less clear is if it is in Albertas best interest to join NAFTA.

Given the restrictions on how and for how much we can sell commodities like oil and gas via NAFTA, a sovereign Alberta might want to think about all that for a bit.....

[Higgly]

What I want is to help you in your hour of need. I want to continue to help unify your country. Wasn't that clear?

I was reading between the lines. But why not see if another thread will address the issue better?

[Guest American Woman]

I was reading between the lines. But why not see if another thread will address the issue better?

My response wasn't really about the NW passage, since that's not what this thread is about-- it's about the stregth of Canada's unity. I don't understand no "common unifying issues." I don't understand the 'I couldn't care less if Alberta separates' mentality. Seems to me what affects one province should affect all in a "unifying way."

When NYC was attacked on 9-11, the whole country felt it. When NO was devastated, the whole country felt it. I'm talking about Americans; the people. We stand together. We have the "united we stand, divided we fall" attitude that I think a nation should have. I would be truly upset if states were talking about wanting to leave the union. So that's what I was commenting on-- it was you who brought up the NW passage. But hey, if that will help unify your nation, strengthen your bond, that is (in my opinion) a good thing.

[Higgly]

When NYC was attacked on 9-11, the whole country felt it. When NO was devastated, the whole country felt it.

Well sure. And aren't our guys over in Kandahar getting killed? Didn't our biggest business guy (Frank Stronach) go down to the Big Easy and lay down the big bucks? Weren't we there for you in your hour of need?

So why not back us in our claim against the Ruskies instead of this nonsense about how you have some sort of rights to the Northwest passage?

[Wilber]

Jeez Higgly, lighten up.

[Higgly]

Jeez Higgly, lighten up.

Forget it. You can't get territory back once you've lost it.

[Wilber]

What can I say, AM's little comment made me chuckle. I think that was her intent.

[Guest American Woman]

What can I say, AM's little comment made me chuckle. I think that was her intent.

Yes, that was definitely my intent.

[Higgly]

What can I say, AM's little comment made me chuckle. I think that was her intent.

Not really. She was being snide. It went over your head. Try standing up.

[Wilber]

Not really. She was being snide. It went over your head. Try standing up.

I think I'll take her word.

[geoffrey]

So why not back us in our claim against the Ruskies instead of this nonsense about how you have some sort of rights to the Northwest passage?

Maybe because Canada's position is shakey at best and the US would hate to see the same thinking applied to other waters.

[Guest American Woman]

Maybe because Canada's position is shakey at best and the US would hate to see the same thinking applied to other waters.

You bring up a good point, so I'm going to resond here so we can continue the NW passage discussion w/o taking this thread further off topic.