Dumbledore's Gay

[jawapunk]

Kengs. I think the point is even though you make lengthy arguments, you also refuse to back them up with ANYTHING. It is right there in the forum rules, if you are going to make statements that lead to worthwhile debate there is an expectation to back these claims up with empirical evidence, whether it is the quotes from the Bible in this case or survey information, statistical data, entries from a website that is credible, or videos on the subject etc..

If you just say stuff, it is opinion and not fact as you state it. People dismiss you so easily because you are not a scholarly source, otherwise known as an authority, yourself. Even if you were, you wold draw on other peoples work in order to prove your contentions. This is not to say you can't have your own ideas, but again they are then just opinion nles backed up in some way making them credible and logical.

Edited November 22, 2007 by jawapunk

[Rue]

deleted

Edited November 22, 2007 by Rue

[Rue]

Citation please.

deleted

Edited November 22, 2007 by Rue

[Rue]

Keng this is in direct response to your comments in italics;

"Rue,

Your kind of jabbering about Christianity has been going on from day one, so don't think you're accomplishing much by doing this except re-inforcing negative stereotypes."

For you to lecture anyone on engaging in negative stereotypes is laughable. Since you have come on this forum all you have done is to engage in them. More to the point Sir, when I responded, I was clear I was stating a subjective opinion, prefaced it with a remark to Christians making it clear what it was, and unlike you at no time suggestidc my opinion was infallible and the only one. Not only that Keng, but provide sources for my opinions when asked.

"Christians have always been persecuted by your kind; Christians have always been the victims, regardless of how history gets twisted to seem otherwise."

Keng you speak for yourself, no one else. This role you take on as having the right let alone the role of speaking on behalf of all Christians is delusional. You speak for yourself.

" But that's okay; we all know where you're headed, so it's safe to say that the ability to wantonly malign and persecute without consequence in this mortal world is small consolation for the prize that awaits your kind"

Who is "we" Keng. You speak for you, no one else. The fact that you can not decipher your personal opinions from anyone else's shows what I mean when I suggest you are demonstrating narcissism, an inability to differentiate your feelings from others and understand they are not the same.

As for you threatening me with eternal damnation, all it does Keng is show anyone reading your words that you rage and are full of hatred and anger and are under the pretense if you call yourself a Christian it makes such behaviour acceptable.

What is also interesting Keng is you accuse me of persecuting Christians, and tell me I am going to hell, and then have the nerve to state and I quote;

"All true Christians "hate the sin, not the sinner".

Your very words show you do not differentiate between hating me and the sin you think I have engaged in just as your words show you do not differentiate between the sin you think gays engage in and your feelings towards gays as people. Your comments in regards to both gays and myself as well as other posters shows clearly through your words, you simply hate.

When asked by another poster what you meant by "your kind" you stated;

"God-haters, anti-Christians, those of the general persecutorial bent."

Let's get one thing very clear Keng. I despise everything you stand for. I personally think you are a man full of sexual confusion, rage and violence and I have no doubt if given the opportunity you could hurt someone given what I read. But at no time have I questioned Christians or there right to worship or believe in God any way they want and your attempt to suggest I have because I think you use the Christian religion as a pretense for your own expressions of rage and hatred doesn't make me anti-Christian.

In fact Keng, even if I believe Jesus was not THE son of God but A son of God, it would not make me a Christian hater. I may also question ALL organized religions in the exact same manner, but it doesn't mean I hate them.

As for you Sir having the audacity to suggest I hate God because I won't think like you do and hate people like you do shows in clear form how once again you can not differentiate any view or feeling other then your own and if you sense difference you lash out in a rage to try prevent anything but your feeling or thought from being expressed.

No Keng you do not know what I believe and what I do not believe and I am afraid with all the rage and anger in your heart and the loud screams coming from your righteousness you can not hear anything from anyone-you are too busy telling us all how we must obey you.

Now then Keng. you tell Monsieur Dancer and I quote; "spare us all your flippant, sarcastic remarks..." . Who is all? You do not speak for anyone but yourself Keng. More to the point Keng, right before you told him not to be sarcastic you stated and I quote; "Honestly, this one-liner drivel that you always resort to is pathetic."

Shortly before that you also stated and I quote; "Although there are better sources, I think a quotation from Wikipedia will suffice for you:"

Tell me Keng do you care that in every sentence you write, you contradict it with your own words preceding what you say?

Keng you have repeatedly demonstrated you do the exact same thing you condemn...over and over. So I say, yes Keng I know. We all now know. The cat is out of the bag. The rage, the conflicted statements, the engaging in exactly what you claim to rage against, the use of religious words to engage in saying hurtful and hateful things-its all there Keng.

Now tell me Keng, do you really think threatening me with damnation changes that?

BOO!

Edited November 22, 2007 by Rue

[Rue]

Here are the sources I rely on for my comments and Jeff is right about my comment on Constantine ordering E to come up with the manuscripts for the NT that specific info I read in; Prof/ S.L. MacGuire, God's Book of Eskra, Salisbruy, 1922, c.xiviii.

I also appreciate MDance's comments and J's. I find them interesting and helpful for me.

I think we all basically agree on the council and Constantine's role, just not the exact dates and I am sure we all concede the actual agendas of all the players can be speculated on but of course none of us will really know although Jeffer for me, I really do see this as having been for Constanine a crass political exercise_ i just don't see this man as anything but a crass opportunist-the rest, who knows, I concede I can't possibly know what the motives of all the players would have been and I am sure many of them were driven by very honest good spiritual intentions while others may have simply been power hungry manipulators or maybe both in some cases.

I know I am not presenting anything either Danc or Jeff have not seen before and were already aware of. I presented it to show Jeff where I was coming from and I am glad I did, because it enabled me to get an opinion of his on how he sees Constanine and the council's role which I would not have otherwise have properly understood as I do now.

Edwin Hatch, The Influence of Greek Ideas on Christianity. New York, NY.: Harper Torchbooks, Harper & Brothers, 1957

On Mystic Visions as Sources of Knowledge, in S. Katz, Mysticism and Philosophical Analysis. New York, New York.: Oxford University Press, 1978

Carl G. Jung Man and his Symbols. New York, NY.: Dell Publishing Co. Inc., 1964

The Origins of the New Testament By Alfred Firmin Loisy, Translated by L. P. Jacks From the French Les Origines du Nouveau Testament, 1936, English Edition, 1962, Published in New Hyde Park, N.Y. by University Books, Inc.

Hellenism, the Seed-bed of Christianity, The New Testament's Non-Hebraic, Hellenistic Greek Presuppositions,, Walter Reinhold Warttig Mattfeld y de la Torre, M.A. Ed., 29 January 2003, http://www.bibleorigins.net/NewTestament.html

From the Catholic Enclcylopedia, I rely on;

Vol. vi, p.137, xiv, p.310-11, iii, p.171.

Edited November 22, 2007 by Rue

[jazzer]

The Gospel of Matthew

19:4. Who answering, said to them: Have ye not read, that he who made man from the beginning, made them male and female? And he said:

19:5. For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they two shall be in one flesh.

19:6. Therefore now they are not two, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let no man put asunder.

In all Jesus definitions of marriage and union, male and female are present Jazzer. Why didn't he mention homosexuality? Perhaps, as you say, a mute Jesus doesn't cut it.

When in doubt, cherry pick. Well here is one for you. 1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. I can't think of a more confusing and contradictory book than the bible, especially pertaining to sins and punishments expressed in Leviticus. Homosexuality currently is Christianity's new whipping boy, or new Galileo, and in time science will prove the church wrong.

[kengs333]

When in doubt, cherry pick. Well here is one for you. 1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. I can't think of a more confusing and contradictory book than the bible, especially pertaining to sins and punishments expressed in Leviticus. Homosexuality currently is Christianity's new whipping boy, or new Galileo, and in time science will prove the church wrong.

How exactly is "homosexuality [the] new whipping boy"? The "gay rights" movement are the one's who instigated this whole uproar and has forced Christians into a position where they have to respond. Christians are no less concerned about the other sins that plague our society.

You clearly just do not understand the Bible, yet you continue to make ignorant comments. Do you even know what 1 Corinthians 14 is discussing, let alone what all if 1 Corinthians is about?

[kengs333]

Kengs. I think the point is even though you make lengthy arguments, you also refuse to back them up with ANYTHING. It is right there in the forum rules, if you are going to make statements that lead to worthwhile debate there is an expectation to back these claims up with empirical evidence, whether it is the quotes from the Bible in this case or survey information, statistical data, entries from a website that is credible, or videos on the subject etc..

If you just say stuff, it is opinion and not fact as you state it. People dismiss you so easily because you are not a scholarly source, otherwise known as an authority, yourself. Even if you were, you wold draw on other peoples work in order to prove your contentions. This is not to say you can't have your own ideas, but again they are then just opinion nles backed up in some way making them credible and logical.

Let's see some proof.

[kengs333]

I disagree totally. It was in fact Paul and others who had the homophobia, unlike Jesus who preached love and forgiveness. J.C. spoke against adultry but left out homosexuality? Sorry, but I don't buy your contention.

Paul was a homophobe, now, was he?

Jesus preached love and forgiveness, but he also preached that sin was wrong and that people who continued to live in sin, refuse him as saviour, and go against the word of God would not attain eternal life.

[cybercoma]

How exactly is "homosexuality [the] new whipping boy"? The "gay rights" movement are the one's who instigated this whole uproar and has forced Christians into a position where they have to respond. Christians are no less concerned about the other sins that plague our society.

You clearly just do not understand the Bible, yet you continue to make ignorant comments. Do you even know what 1 Corinthians 14 is discussing, let alone what all if 1 Corinthians is about?

Homosexuals aren't asking for a response, they're asking to be left alone. They're asking that you don't point your finger at them and condemn as sinners, accuse them of being pedophiles and say they are the reason for all of society's ills.

The only way you need to respond to them is to stfu and let people live their lives in peace.

[cybercoma]

Jesus preached love and forgiveness, but he also preached that sin was wrong and that people who continued to live in sin, refuse him as saviour, and go against the word of God would not attain eternal life.

So do countless other prophets, deities and religious figures, but you're an atheist regarding those things, aren't you?

[kengs333]

Homosexuals aren't asking for a response, they're asking to be left alone. They're asking that you don't point your finger at them and condemn as sinners, accuse them of being pedophiles and say they are the reason for all of society's ills.

The only way you need to respond to them is to stfu and let people live their lives in peace.

Ummm, no. This is an issue that they are forcing, and it's by no means about being "left alone" but stifling all criticisms so that they can openly flaunt and force their lifestyle on others. Christians don't condemn sinners; sinners condemn themselves. Inherent to Christianity is the ability for the sinner and non-believer to repent and turn one's back on their sinful past--no matter how bad. People who advocate a sinful lifestyle offer no such hope. Which is why gays are so adament (and hysterical) about notion that people can leave the gay lifestyle--it undermines their agenda.

[Oleg Bach]

Ummm, no. This is an issue that they are forcing, and it's by no means about being "left alone" but stifling all criticisms so that they can openly flaunt and force their lifestyle on others. Christians don't condemn sinners; sinners condemn themselves. Inherent to Christianity is the ability for the sinner and non-believer to repent and turn one's back on their sinful past--no matter how bad. People who advocate a sinful lifestyle offer no such hope. Which is why gays are so adament (and hysterical) about notion that people can leave the gay lifestyle--it undermines their agenda.

If you don't enjoy the idea of a couple of men messing about or woman doing the same - ignore it - why do I see so much fixation by religious folks on what these people do with their genitals? Strange and odd gentital contact is not something you should turn your eye towards..don't look! Raise your children as breeders - and if there is the odd defective one in that area - leave them alone - now the ones that want to seduce your son or daughter into the "life style" - well - why worry - If you have raise your own children and given them pride and confidience in them selves - no one can change them...

.It's not nice for groups to encourage young people to have sexual contact with others - whether hetro or homo - I suggest you let nature take its' course and leave the kids alone...sex is private - as should be finances. Both of these if preditorials find too much about you they will go through human weakness to use and abuse - maintain your privacy and don't worry what the neighbours are doing next door...who cares - if they are fools or inferiours - for you to pay too much attention to what is considered sexual dysfunction - then maybe you have a problem in that area. Forget about it...be who you are and let the fools fade away.

[jazzer]

You clearly just do not understand the Bible, yet you continue to make ignorant comments. Do you even know what 1 Corinthians 14 is discussing, let alone what all if 1 Corinthians is about?

What's the matter Kengie? A little too close to home for ya? You guys are all about cherrypicking where it supports your crazy claims. And speaking of ignorant, that's a comment I'd expect from you. You religious types like to shut down and quell any dissention or disagreement by insults. You continue to verify what most on this forum know about your true character, and it ain't Christian.

Edited November 23, 2007 by jazzer

[Rue]

Oh can you hear its Keng again;

"The "gay rights" movement are the one's who instigated this whole uproar and has forced Christians into a position where they have to respond. "

Could this be the same Keng who lectured me on not engaging in negative generalizations?

"Christians are no less concerned about the other sins that plague our society. "

So tell us all Keng, how long have you felt you speak on behalf of all Christians? How long have you felt you were the spokesperson for all Christians? You do tend to speak on their behalf a lot don't you. Gosh do you know them all or I mean could it be you are....generalizing?

"You clearly just do not understand the Bible...."

Here we go, because someone does not agree with Keng's opinions, they can be condemned as not understanding the Bible-why because Keng's opinions must be agreed with otherwise they must be wrong.

"yet you continue to make ignorant comments."

Psst Keng, calling someone ignorant because they have an opinion that differs from you is um uh um ignorant. Um uh um uh imagine that Keng doing the exact same thing you criticizes others for. Hmmm you do this continually in every sentence you write. Why do you think that is Keng? Imagine, doing the very same thing you criticize others for. Whct can them mean Keng?

" Do you even know what 1 Corinthians 14 is discussing, let alone what all if 1 Corinthians is about?"

Now wait. Is this patronizing and insulting and sacastic comment coming from the same man who told Monsieur Dancer not to be sarcastic? Nah it can't be. Keng is a Christian as he has advised us all. He loves his fellow man. He would never ever insult or demean or patronize any fellow man er wait, unless they are gay or Jewish or a non believer or anyone who disagrees with him.

Say Keng didn't you tell me I persecute people? What do you think we should call your patronizing belittling coment? Persecutorial? No wait, then that would mean you are the very thing you criticize others for. Hmm I am having deja vu.

Edited November 23, 2007 by Rue

[M.Dancer]

Now wait. Is this patronizing and insulting and sacastic comment coming from the same man who told Monsieur Dancer not to be sarcastic?

That is sort of like telling water not to be wet.....

[Rue]

Yoohoo Keng!

"This is an issue that they are forcing,"

Another negative generalization Keng. Tsssk Tsssk.

"... and it's by no means about being "left alone" but stifling all criticisms so that they can openly flaunt and force their lifestyle on others. "

Indeed there you go again. You accuse all gays, every single gay of trying to impose their beliefs on the world but you? What are you doingw hen you preach? Say Keng there it goes again-you condemn gays for doing the exact same thing you do, why is that Keng? Why do you think you keep condemning others for the same thing you do?

"Christians don't condemn sinners; sinners condemn themselves."

Ahahahhah. Let me remind you Keng. You did lecture us that Christians don't condemn the sinners but condemn the sins. Well that was interesting because it would be impossible to condemn a sin without condemning the person committing the sin, in fact impossible. But then you do like to compartmentalize and pretend things are seperate when they are attached don't you? Now you go the next step and say sinners condemn themselves. No Keng "sinners" don't condemn themselves, you do when you make that very statement, you simply replaced the word "I" with "sinners". Its not hard to figure out Keng. Whenever you wish to talk about yourself you use words such as "Christian" "Christians" "Sinner"....say Keng do you think you have used any other words to describe yourself when you write about things being evil?

"Inherent to Christianity is the ability for the sinner and non-believer to repent and turn one's back on their sinful past--no matter how bad."

Oh do let me translate shall we Keng- Inherent to KENG is the ability for KENG to tell the person Keng feels he has no control over that they must obey KENG.

Am I getting close Keng? Is that how it feels-there is a rush in needing to control people and have them obey?

"Which is why gays are so adament (and hysterical) about notion that people can leave the gay lifestyle--it undermines their agenda."

Let me translate again Keng, "Which is why I am so adament and hysterica; about the notion that people can disobey me, it undermines my agenda."

Its really easy after awhile Keng. I love schizmogenetic responses (circular, escalating remarks).

Its fun. Oh give me more!!!!!

[Rue]

That is sort of like telling water not to be wet.....

Or me to shush up :lol.

Keng: I am holy:

Rue: So are my underwear

Dance: oy

[g_bambino]

Paul was a homophobe, now, was he?

Jesus preached love and forgiveness, but he also preached that sin was wrong and that people who continued to live in sin, refuse him as saviour, and go against the word of God would not attain eternal life.

He loves you only if you do what he says. Without his love, you go to Hell for eternity. Well, there's some blackmail if I've ever heard it!

[Oleg Bach]

Or me to shush up :lol.

Keng: I am holy:

Rue: So are my underwear

Dance: oy

And the Lord spake and said "let the water not be wet" - and he walked on the face of the former wet water to find that fish do not fair well underfoot...that is a very deep statement that means absolutely nothing..Why does Dumbledore have to be gay anyway? Why do the kids now have to have visons of this man doing something nasty and dressed in rubber....not to metion not having any grand children to carry on the Dumbledore blood line...I was wondering if they asked the fictional character if he wanted now to be known for the next hundred years as gay? But he can not anwer on behalf of himself...

This is much like the gay lobby that insist that all these men in history are gay - and none can speak to the contrary seeing all are dead..eg JESUS CHRIST - ALEXANDER THE GREAT - ALL THE GREAT COMPOSERS - NAPOLEON - MICHEALANGELO (seeing he had all those young male assistants and simply could not help himself) AND DON'T FORGET KEEPER OF THE BREAD - LORD CONRAD BLACK...well - give it time - he may have to adapt where he might be going.

[g_bambino]

This is much like the gay lobby that insist that all these men in history are gay - and none can speak to the contrary seeing all are dead..eg JESUS CHRIST - ALEXANDER THE GREAT - ALL THE GREAT COMPOSERS - NAPOLEON - MICHEALANGELO (seeing he had all those young male assistants and simply could not help himself) AND DON'T FORGET KEEPER OF THE BREAD - LORD CONRAD BLACK...

You've got a point there; I always smell desperation on the part of the "Gay Lobby" when they try and draw retroactively draw all these people into their fold when, hilariously, almost none of them would've even had a concept of what "gay" is.

Edited November 23, 2007 by g_bambino

[Rue]

I suggest you let nature take its' course and leave the kids alone...sex is private - for you to pay too much attention to what is considered sexual dysfunction - then maybe you have a problem in that area.

Oleg you have of course placed the onion under cold water-therefore your eyes are not blinded by the tears it causes, and you are able to penetrate its many layers and get right to its central essence. I doubt Keng can control his compulsions which he expresses to us with religious pretexts.

These things always seem to lead unfortunately to an appocolyptic ending, i.e., something full of rage, feelings of betrayal and confrontation.

The problem with some of us humans is our behaviour can become very predictable and in my case deliberate. We tend to repeat it over and over until we force it to come to a head.

So Keng how does it end? How do you think you will get them all to obey you? How will you capture them all and get them to do it your way or will someone try stop you? Does that person go to hell or were they sent to bring you there?

Perhaps you would like to lecture me about Revelations. Can't wait.

Edited November 23, 2007 by Rue

[Rue]

You've got a point there; I always smell desperation on the part of the "Gay Lobby" when they try and draw retroactively draw all these people into their fold when, hilariously, almost none of them would've even had a concept of what "gay" is.

John Wayne was gay. Clint Eastwood, gay. George Clooney, gay. Halle Berry, gay. Harvey Firestein, straight. George Bush, gay.

all you have to do is ask. Its not like its a secret.

Edited November 23, 2007 by Rue

[jawapunk]

It has been well documented about Alexander the Great's homosexual partners. He was Greek/Macedonian afterall! I don't think there is a gay conspiracy working there...some great people in thie history of the world were gay...so what? Never heard that Napoleon was..I'm sure a couple of composers could have been but not all.

Anyways I doubt Alexander would care admitting he slept with men as in that time homosexual acts with men and pedophillic acts with boys were quite normal.

[Oleg Bach]

Oleg you have of course placed the onion under cold water-therefore your eyes are not blinded by the tears it causes, and you are able to penetrate its many layers and get right to its central essence. I doubt Keng can control his compulsions which he expresses to us with religious pretexts.

These things always seem to lead unfortunately to an appocolyptic ending, i.e., something full of rage, feelings of betrayal and confrontation.

The problem with some of us humans is our behaviour can become very predictable and in my case deliberate. We tend to repeat it over and over until we force it to come to a head.

So Keng how does it end? How do you think you will get them all to obey you? How will you capture them all and get them to do it your way or will someone try stop you? Does that person go to hell or were they sent to bring you there?

Perhaps you would like to lecture me about Revelations. Can't wait.

Goodness or God is almighty. This is a tribal concern about men not doing their duty as far as breeding..some of the best genetics are being lost to this silly gay thing. Sure there are some naturals but not many. I have often wondered about the man made end of relgion and the use of it to persecute and harm and for some to kill their fellows. For instance if an Islamic states that he is killing a man in the name of God - there is no God given logic..God has been birthing and killing the natural world from the begining of time - and to say that God need your assistance to kill - is saying that God is NOT almighty and a sissy that needs the help of a zealot..it makes no sense - and as far as these discussions ending badly - just tell your supposed advesary that you love them..and mean it. Then end it at that..there is no hate in this thread..just friendship - pledge non-betrayal and move on.