Does Music Shape A Person's Values

[Alliance Fanatic]

Lets face it, music has shaped peoples views, and fashions from the beginning of time. I think that some of the older members that listened to the beatles, and the beach boy's, and tried dressing like the beack boys, and beatles, and becoming, in a way the artists. Many people's views were also shaped by musicians, like Bob Dylan, and some musicians who treated drugs, like an heavenly experience, many people tried drugs, and it ended up in death. However with the explosion of Hip Hop, this generations values are changing also. Today in my school, most people listen to Rap. Many of my friends in junior high, never listened to Rap, Hip Hop, or music that was negative in nature. However in high school my friends and many other people started listening to rap, hip hop, and other music. And all of a sudden they started to hate "Pigs" [cops], whenever a police officer came to my school, people would actually give him the middle finger, and all I ever heard was "pig" being said by students. Most students at my school now do some form of drugs, and many try to mirror the "gangsta's" they listen to. I watched one of fifty cents video's, where he depicted police officer's as evil, and as racist "pigs". I watched one of Tupac Shakur's video's, and police officers were portrayed as the evil in society who are against the "black man". Here is one of the most violent songs probably ever written.

[warning, some people may find the language disturbing]

[MC Ren as Court Officer]

Right about now, N.W.A. court is in full effect

Judge Dre presiding

In the case of N.W.A. vs. the Police Department;

prosecuting attourneys are: MC Ren, Ice Cube,

and Eazy-motherf%$kin-E

[Dr. Dre as The Judge]

Order, order, order

Ice Cube, take the motherf$#kin stand

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth

and nothin but the truth so help your black ass?

[ice Cube as Witness]

You god damn right!

[Dr. Dre]

Well won't you tell everybody what the f*&k you gotta say?

[ice Cube]

F%$k the police comin straight from the underground

A young nigga got it bad cause I'm brown

And not the other color so police think

they have the authority to kill a minority

F*&k that shit, cause I ain't the one

for a punk motherf*&ker with a badge and a gun

to be beatin on, and thrown in jail

We can go toe to toe in the middle of a cell

F^%kin with me cause I'm a teenager

with a little bit of gold and a pager

Searchin my car, lookin for the product

Thinkin every nigga is sellin narcotics

You'd rather see, me in the pen

than me and Lorenzo rollin in a Benz-o

Beat a police out of shape

and when I'm finished, bring the yellow tape

To tape off the scene of the slaughter

Still gettin swoll off bread and water

I don't know if they fags or what

Search a nigga down, and grabbin his nuts

And on the other hand, without a gun they can't get none

But don't let it be a black and a white one

Cause they'll slam ya down to the street top

Black police showin out for the white cop

Ice Cube will swarm

on ANY motherf%$ker in a blue uniform

Just cause I'm from, the CPT

Ounk police are afraid of me!

HUH, a young nigga on the warpath

And when I'm finished, it's gonna be a bloodbath

of cops, dyin in L.A.

Yo Dre, I got somethin to say

{*"F%$k the police" -> cut and scratched 4X*}

Example of scene one

[Cop] Pull your god damn ass over right now

[NWA] Aww shit, now what the f*&k you pullin me over for?

[Cop] Cause I feel like it!

Just sit your ass on the curb and shut the fuck up

[NWA] Man, f$#k this shit

[Cop] Aight smartass, I'm takin your black ass to jail!

[Dr. Dre]

MC Ren, will you please give your testimony

to the jury about this f$#ked up incident?

[MC Ren]

F**k the police and Ren said it with authority

because the niggaz on the street is a majority

A gang, is with whoever I'm steppin

and the motherf&^kin weapon is kept in

a stash box, for the so-called law

Wishin Ren was a nigga that they never saw

Lights start flashin behind me

But they're scared of a nigga so they mace me to blind me

But that shit don't work, I just laugh

because it gives em a hint, not to step in my path

For police, I'm sayin, "F*&k you punk!"

Readin my rights and shit, it's all junk

Pullin out a silly club, so you stand

with a fake-assed badge and a gun in your hand

But take off the gun so you can see what's up

And we'll go at it punk, and I'ma fuck you up!

Make you think I'ma kick your ass

but drop your gat, and Ren's gonna blast

I'm sneaky as f%$k when it comes to crime

But I'ma smoke 'em now and not next time

Smoke any motherf#@ker that sweats me

or any asshole, that threatens me

I'm a sniper with a hell of a scope

Takin out a cop or two, they can't cope with me

The motherf#@kin villian that's mad

With potential, to get bad as fuck

So I'ma turn it around

Put in my clip, yo, and this is the sound

{*BOOM, BOOM*} Yeah, somethin like that

but it all depends on the size of the gat

Takin out a police, would make my day

But a nigga like Ren don't give a f%$k to say

{*"F%$k the police" -> cut and scratched 4X*}

[Cop] {*knocking on the door*}

[NWA] Yeah man, what you need?

[Cop] Police, open now

[NWA] Aww shit

[Cop] We have a warrant for Eazy-E's arrest

[Cop] Get down and put your hands up where I can see 'em

(Move motherf#@ker, move now!)

[NWA] What the f$#k did I do, man what did I do?

[Cop] Just shut the f%$k up

and get your motherf&^kin ass on the floor

(You heard the man, shut the f^%k up!)

[NWA] But I didn't do shit

[Cop] Man just shut the f*&k up!

[Dr. Dre]

Eazy-E, won't you step up to the stand

and tell the jury how you feel about this bullshit?

[Eazy-E]

I'm tired of the motherf&^kin jackin

Sweatin my gang, while I'm chillin in the shack, and

shinin the light in my face, and for what?

Maybe it's because I kick so much butt

I kick ass -- or maybe cause I blast

on a stupid-assed nigga when I'm playin with the trigger

of any Uzi or an AK

Cause the police always got somethin stupid to say

They put out my picture with silence

Cause my identity by itself causes violence

The E with the criminal behavior

Yeah, I'm a gangsta, but still I got flavor

Without a gun and a badge, what do ya got?

A sucker in a uniform waitin to get shot

by me, or another nigga

And with a gat it don't matter if he's smaller or bigger

(MC Ren: Size ain't sh&t, he's from the old school fool)

And as you all know, E's here to rule

Whenever I'm rollin, keep lookin in the mirror

And ears on cue, yo, so I can hear a

dumb motherf^%$#^ with a gun

And if I'm rollin off the 8, he'll be the one

that I take out, and then get away

While I'm drivin off laughin this is what I'll say

{*"F^%k the police" -> cut and scratched 4X*}

The verdict

[Dre] The jury has found you guilty of bein a redneck,

white bread, chickenshit motherf%^&er

[Cop] But wait, that's a lie! That's a god damn lie!

[Dre] Get him out of here!

[Cop] I want justice!

[Dre] Get him the f%^& out my face!

[Cop] I want justice!

[Dre] Out, RIGHT NOW!

[Cop] F^%K YOU, YOU BLACK MOTHER-F^%KERRRRRRRRRRRRS!

F*** the police! (repeat 3X)

[by the way Greg, I tried my best to censor the swears.

-I would like to know what the people at this forum think of this new Hip Hop craze, and whether or not it is having a positive or negative influence today.

"And when I'm finished, it's gonna be a bloodbath

of cops, dyin in L.A."

By the way, think of the police officer's who were killed on duty trying to keep your community safe, and I'd like to know if you think that the rap artists are trying to incite assassinations on Police Officers.

Police Officer's killed in gang killings.

http://www.streetgangs.com/memorial/police.html

[Moderate Centrist]

First... I think rap is crap.

Second this topic is completely unoriginal and third pop culture is the most trivial of subject matters.

Alliance your post can be found almost word for word in thousands of newspapers, speech excerpts and interviews given since the mid 1950s. It is no more insightful or thought provoking now than it was then.

Music (and pop culture) is not so much the issue as people's obsession with it. This is is the real problem.

Politicians, parents, teachers and religious leaders always try to blame pop culture for everything instead of putting the blame on individuals and themselves first which is where it belongs.

Violent/vulgar lyrics are primarily good business... They help not just music stars but politicians as well. Vulgarity (which in our society equates with creativity) and sensationalism sells.

Music stars(mostly the ones that suck musically) use controversy to sell records and make millions.

Newspapers and T.V. have something to talk about and get ratings/sales and finally politicians have the chance to speak out against the decline of morality making themselves look good.

Comments like yours are the real problem. Our whole society is consumed with the trivial and obsessed with pop culture.

Some kid shoots up a school and instead of putting the blame where it belongs - on the kid that did it, on the parents who raised him, on the school that had lax security, people scream bloody murder about Marilyn Manson.

Responsibility - personal responsibility and responsibility to the larger society is a message I'd like to hear rather than blaming societies problems on T.V. and music.

As far as rap music goes... sure there are violent lyrics. So what? How is this any different than any other form of music.

I'm not going to take up space here but rather point out if you want to hear violent lyrics or lyrics which promote violence look no farther than the following:

Johnny Cash - Dehlia's Gone

Niel Young - Down By the River

The Beatles - Run For Your Life

Jimi Hendrix - Hey Joe

AC/DC - Problem Child, Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap

I could go on and on and on but I think you get the idea.

To all those who suggest music is causing violence I ask the following:

Explain the Boer War, WW1, the Russian Civil war after the revolution, Stalin's purges, the genocide in the Ukraine, WW2, Korean War, Vietnam, the gang violence that took place during the Roaring twenties and the social unrest that happened in the 1960s and on and on and on.

Please explain how music and pop culture contributed to these events, which if I'm not mistaken were exceedingly violent.

Societal problems stem from many things some of which include a lack of personal responsibility, poor upbringing, broken families, alchololism, domestic abuse, poverty, economic and employment upheavals, lack of education and so on.

It is much easier to blame Music and pop culture rather than tackle these problems directly which can't be done in four year terms.

I have a very simple solution - if something offends you don't read it, don't listen to it and don't watch it. We rarely ever hear this being proposed.

As for your suggestion on the decline of respect for the police - it has gone up and down since the modern police force was formed and will continue to do so.

I didn't care much for the police when I was in high school and neither did most of the people I knew. This is a fact of being a kid.

You have to accept the fact that many people don't like the police - some for simple adolescent anti-authoritarian reasons, a minority because they're involved in criminal activity and some because police conduct in the past has cast doubts on their credibility.

And no I don't think rap artists are trying to incite assassinations on police. I think they're trying to make money and maybe make an "artistic statement" in their mind.

[Alliance Fanatic]

Well, I think my point was that police officer's were being harassed at my school. The fact is that popular culture is having a negative affect on this generation. You have also forgotten that most school shootings were probably caused by people being bullied, and that pretty well all school shooters were influenced by negative popular culture. If a black kid listens to a song calling all police officers racist pigs, and asking blacks to kill that police officer, that has influenced a person, and that person may go out and kill.

I also find it hard to believe that rap artists are only making an artisitc expression.

"And when I'm finished, it's gonna be a bloodbath

of cops, dyin in L.A."

I have also noticed that people hate cop's, and have started using derogatory terms like Po Po, the 5 0, and pigs. All from some form of pop culture.

I also used examples from the past, on how music, and pop culture influenced people. The fact is that music which preaches about raping bitches, killing cops, and blowing off a nigga's head. All of that crap does affect kids in some way or another. I believe that we should debate whether or not a society should embrace this crap, or if we should do everything in our power to make sure that this crap does not have a negative effect on kids.

Another question to raise is why nobody is willing to attack these people, we praise Tupac Shakur, even though he wanted police officer's dead, and was killed in a gang war. Yet we make a movie about him, so people can idolize him. May I also add that this link shows the relationship between violence, sex, and drugs, with pop culture.

http://www.aap.org/policy/01219.html

[Moderate Centrist]

Hello Alliance,

Well I certainly don't encourage harassing police officers. My point is that pop culture has invaded people's lives to an excessive extent.

"You have also forgotten that most school shootings were probably caused by people being bullied, and that pretty well all school shooters were influenced by negative popular culture. "

Alliance

No, actually I have not forgotten this and you are 100% right on this. In these cases where there have been school shootings there have been warning signs in advance such as the students were loners, harassed and bullied by other students, had made threats and had easy access to guns.

My point was the media tends to focus on the pop culture link which is frivilous at best.

"Artistic Expression" is a loaded term. I for one do not consider many of todays' so-called artists as actual artists.

All people do not hate cops. Hate is a pretty strong word. Certainly some do but the majority of people don't. I'm not familiar with the term Po Po or the 5 0 but "Pig" has been around since the 1960s, long before rap music.

I'm not saying music doesn't influence people. I'm saying I expect our religious, political, education and parental leaders to encourage people to use their heads and think for themselves.

As we both know millions of people listen to music but only a minute few will turn to anti-social behavior because of it. Even with those few there has been little credible evidence to suggest music causes violence.

You are attacking Rap music because that's the main target today. As you may or may not be aware this will change as some new musical form or an old comes to the forefront.

In the 1950s Elvis was attacked

1960s the Beatles

1970s Black Sabbath and the Sex Pistols

1980s saw AC/DC and Judas Priest under the scrutiny of various organizations

1990s saw Marylin Manson and today we have the rap culture.

This is not new. In all of that time very little of value has been gained in bettering society by attacking pop culture.

I appreciate and understand your concerns I merely state that we should remember:

The fault dear Brutus is not in our stars but in ourselves.

[Galahad]

Dick Clark said of his experiences with musicians:

"I met thousands of musicians and none of them could pound salt down a rat hole."

Thus to your question: ... "Does Music Shape A Person's Values?"

Answer: ... I hope not.

[Alliance Fanatic]

Well, mod, I would say you are right that people should start thinking for themselves. However, the point that I was trying to make was that music can sometime's shape people's values. I think that if you read the lyrics, the message is that cops deserve to be killed. If your a parent you have very little control over what your kids listen to at schools, or even at home. Especially when this crap is polluting the airwaves, and it is being espoused everywhere. Tupac Shakur is treated like a hero by some kids that I know. I also think that we should start putting some of the blame on rap artists, and some of these people, who are putting pressure on kids to accept their music, and their view of the world.

Here is another song from Tupac, and you should look at the website I posted.

http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Club/2461/

So my main point is, music does shape a person's values. Whether positive or negative.

"on ANY motherf%$ker in a blue uniform

Just cause I'm from, the CPT

Ounk police are afraid of me!

HUH, a young nigga on the warpath

And when I'm finished, it's gonna be a bloodbath

of cops, dyin in L.A."

To say that this will not harm a person, or shape his values is completely stupid. It is basically propoganda. Police officer's deserve to die, I betch ya if it said that blacks, or jews deserved to die, then you might probably ask for the makers of those songs to be put in jail. But since hatred is directed towards police officers it is alright.

Fuck you to the San FranCisco police department

Fuck you to the Marin County Sheriff department

Fuck you to the F.B.I

Fuck you to the C.I.A

Fuck you to the B-u-s-h

Fuck you to the AmeriKKKa

Fuck you to all you redneck prejudice mutha fuckas

And fuck yah

Fuck Y'all

Punk gay sensitive little dick bastards

2paclypse mutha fuckin' know

Y'all can kiss my ass and suck my dick

And my uncle Tommy's balls

Fuck Y'all

Punks, punks, punks, punks, punks

As I was beatin on a cop, I heard a gun click (uh-ohh)

Then the gun shot, but I wasn't hit

I turned around it was my homie with the gun in hand

He shot the cop (damn!) now he's a dead man

I said, come on, it's time for us to get away

(Let's go, we gotta get the fuck outta here)

They called for backup, and they'll be on their way

Jumped in the car, and tried to get away quick

The car wouldn't start (damn!) we in deep shit

So we jumped out (C'mon let's take the cop's car)

We drove a little ways thinkin that we got far

But I looked up, and all I saw was blue lights

If I die tonight, I'm dying in a gunfight

I grabed the AK, my homie took the 12 gauge

Load em up quick, it's time for us to spray

We'll shoot em up with they own fuckin weapons

And when we through sprayin (audi) then we steppin

This is a lesson, to the rednecks and crooked cops

You fuck with real niggaz, get ya fuckin ass dropped

So here we go, the police against us

Dark as dusk, waitin for the guns to bust (What's next man?)

What's next, I don't know and I don't care

One things fo' sho', tommorrow I won't be here

But if I go, I'm takin all these punks with me

Pass me a clip G, now come and get me

You wanna sweat me, never get me to be silent

Givin them a reason, (a reason) to claim that I'm violent..

Keep my shit cocked, cause the cops got a glock too

What the fuck would you do - drop them or let 'em drop you?

I chose droppin the cop

I got me a glock, and a glock for the niggaz on my block

Momma tried to stab me, I moved out

Sold a pound a weed, made G's, bought a new house

I'm only seventeen, I'm the new kid

Got me a crew, bought 'em jewels, and a Uz'-thick

But all good things don't last

'Task' came fast, and busted my black ass

Coolin in the pen, where the good's kept

Now my little brother wants to follow in my footsteps

A soulja

Some of Tupac's fan's killed police officers

A trooper was killed in Texas, the criminal cited Tupac's 2copalypse now.

In Milwaukee, 2 teens killed a police officer, and cited Tupac's Souliaj Story, as their inspiration.

Tupac himself tried to kill 2 off duty police officer's trying to keep the streets safe.

[Hugo]

I don't believe either the medium or the message is the problem. Art has often contained violence and incitement to it. Shakespeare is replete with regicide, murder and war and a play such as Hamlet is as brutal as any Tarantino movie. Marx's literature contains incitements for the proletariat to rise up and violently overthrow their governments, and so on. If you believe that Tupac is responsible for cop killings, then Marx is responsible for the violence in Russia between 1917 and 1921, so what do we do about Marxist literature - ban it? The problem is nothing new.

However, what is new is the concept of art as big business. It's not enough to just record music, that music has to be sold which means an advertising barrage, tours, endorsements, TV spots and so forth. It's the same with other questionable materials, for example, pornography. I don't particularly have a problem with the existence of pornography, out there, somewhere I don't know about and don't have to see.

What I do have a problem with is the fact that every time I go into Blockbuster Video there are softcore movies on the bottom shelves where my young children can see them mixed in with the new releases and family movies; the fact that there are TV adverts for "college girls gone wild" and so forth in timeslots when children can view it, not to mention adults who might find it offensive; the fact that the sex shops in my town have billboards all over the place and don't have to blank out their windows. There is a particular McDonald's restaurant with a children's playground and, literally right next to it, a sex shop with mannequins in S&M gear in the window for all to see.

This is the same with violence and violent images in art. I don't have a problem with its existence. I like Reservoir Dogs, I like Saving Private Ryan, and I like Black Hawk Down but I would have a heart attack if I thought that my kids (the eldest of whom is seven) were watching it or that somebody was attempting to make them watch it.

That's the essence of my argument. If 50-cent wants to rap about shooting cops, let him. But should art be all about making big bucks and shoving things in people's faces?

To that end, AF, we shouldn't really blame the rap artists. Freedom of expression is fine. Those who must bear the blame, in my opinion, are the record company execs who do their best to get as many people as possible to hear their music and do their best to glamourise that subculture in order to make more sales. Those are the real demons.

[Brainiac]

I have also noticed that people hate cop's, and have started using derogatory terms like Po Po, the 5 0, and pigs. All from some form of pop culture.

'Cop' is also considered a derogatory term by a lot of police officers I know. Not trying to be a dink, but I thought I would point that out for you.

Don't worry about the police officers being harassed by the kids in your school. Being a police officer requires a very thick skin and the ranting of a bunch of little kids is not going to hurt their feeling. They have heard it all before.

Also, I agree with Hugo and Mod...they make some very good points. Some might also argue that violent music is actually a cathartic release for people. It allows people to deal with anger in more harmless ways. If all music was cheery, happy and positive I think I would probably go crazy. Life is not all cheery and positive.

[Alliance Fanatic]

Alright first of all, I have a few points to make. Shakespeare was about death, murder, war, etc. But all of it was based on anti-war messages, take Romeo and Juliet for example, it was about two families who were having a war, and killing each other off, and it took the death of Romeo and Juliet to end that war between families. As for Marx, maybe it should be banned, if it calls for a violent uprising than it should be banned just as much as Hitler's Mein Kampf. They both have no place in our society.

If somebody were to rap about killing jews, minorities, etc. People would be outraged, and that music would be banned from most stores. But why not music that glorifies killing police officers.

Brainiac is right cop is a derogatory term, it usually stands for

Civilian On Patrol, but police officers are'nt Civilians, they are Peace Officers, who do their best to keep the peace in a community, and who are willing to risk their lives to make sure that your family is safe.

I think that to say music which incites kids to kill police officers, thats fine, its artistic expressions, well here is a list of police officer's who were gunned down due to gang violence.

Officer Daniel Pratt, Sept 3, 1988, LAPD, 77th Division.

Officer Kevin Michael Burrell, Feb 2, 1993 Compton Police Department.

Officer James Wayne Mac Donald, Feb 2, 1993 Compton Police Department.

Officer Charles B. Heim, October 22, 1994, LAPD, Hollywood Division on temporary assignment.

Deputy Stephen W. Blair, May 12, 1995, Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department, Century Station.

Officer Daniel T. Fraembs, May 11, 1996, Pomona Police Department

Officer Mario Navidad,December 22, 1996, LAPD, Wilshire Division.

Deputy Shayne York, Aug.14, 1997, Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department.

Deputy Michael Hoenig, Oct 30, 1997, Los Angeles Cfounty Sheriffs Department.

Officer Steve Gajada, Jan 1, 1998, LAPD, Hollenbeck Division

Officer Filbert H. Cuesta , August 9, 1998, LAPD, Southwest Division

Officer Brian Brown, November 29, 1998, LAPD Pacific Division

Officer Daryle W. Black, April 30, 2000, Long Beach Police Department

Rap music glorifies this "Gangster" lifestyle, and the fact is that these rappers are trying to turn young black kids into gangster's when their older. This type of music also lays the blame on everybody else for your problems.

Blame white people

Blame police officer's

Blame god

But the fact is that these rap artists never really ask themselves this question, how has blaming everybody else for lifes problems, made them a better person. All that it really has done is token advantage of black kids.

I'd say that rap artists, and NAMBLA, have one thing in commen, forty years ago rap artists could not have existed as entertainers for children, much like NAMBLA, could not have existed forty years ago, due to the fact that people would have feeled that NAMBLA's literature of picking up boys, and raping them could not have existed.

So in conclusion what can we learn from Tupac Shakur, 50 cent, and NWA. Hater's can aquire wealth and fame, people who want cops dead, are now considered role idols by today's youth. GREAT ROLE MODELS

So what should happen, people of all colors should call for a boycott on hateful rape artists, those who want police officer's dead, should not aquire wealth and fame.

May I add, where are the parents seven million kids bought eminem's CD. The parents should not have allowed their children to bring that crap in their home. Most rap is targeted at youths, its not targeted at middle age people, the fact is that hateful music, violent music, is influencing this generation, and has turned some people to a life of crime, because this music glorifies it so much.

It is also pretty sad when people say that the "Passion", a movie about Jesus Christ, produces hate, yet Fuck Tha Police, and Tupac Shakur, are all artists, just trying to make who have helped society.

By the way I think that we in society should respect police officer's to, the fact is that police officer's are people to, and risk their lives everyday making sure that your community is safe, so I think that we should be a little bit concerned that this generation hates police officer's with such a passion.

We should be much Angrier with the likes of Tupac Shakur, 50 cent, and NWA, than they are at us.

I have another question If a person sings about raping children, killing jews, killing black, etc. Than would you consider that artistic.

[Moderate Centrist]

Hi Alliance,

I have no doubt your concern is genuine on this matter and I sympathize. I merely state that people should look to themselves first before placing the blame on artists. What the rap artists are facing now is no different than the heavy metal genre back in the early 1980s.

As some of you may remember Judas Priest was actually taken to court allegedly for trying to incite kids to commit suicide. There are literally hundreds of examples of this type of thing. In almost every case that I’m aware of no charges have been made to stick against the artists.

I’ve provided a small list of bands in a previous post who’s lyrics either are or endorse violence. Would you suggest we ban the Beatles, Hendrix, AC/DC and Johnny Cash? Where does it stop?

Perception plays a large part of things here. The Bible is full of violence and incitement to violence. It is also full of very good advice and calls to peace and brotherly love Should we ban it too?

I’ve stated before that I’m a big music fan, especially rock n’ roll but I don’t base my life on these people. I enjoy their music but I would never want to live out an existence of drug/alcohol fueled mayhem as many of them do.

The majority of people will never commit a violent act due to music. I’m not aware of any study which has consistently shown music/T.V./music causes violence or any study to which such findings have not been challenged.

It is not only rap music that is targeted at kids – so is rock, punk, pop etc… etc…

If you think rap is bad (again I think it sucks) and anti-social go out and pick up a copy of Never Mind the Bollocks by the Sex Pistols ( a must have for any serious music collector and also a breath of fresh air keeping in mind the evil of disco at the time). While you’re at it read up on the punk movement in the 1970s. The world didn’t end then and I doubt it will end now.

I highly doubt Tupac and 50 Cent have the brains to hate anybody. More likely they do what the record companies tell them and hope to cash in while they can.

As for Marx it shouldn’t be banned and neither should Mein Kamf as repulsive and poorly written as it is. We pay a price for living in a free society. That price is the promotion of ideas that we don’t always agree with.

It is our responsibility to use self censorship to filter out what offends us. The public has the power to change pop culture. It’s the power of the dollar. If you don’t like it don’t buy it. If there is no money in it there’ll be less of it.

“have another question If a person sings about raping children, killing jews, killing black, etc. Than would you consider that artistic.”

Alliance

I think some in today’s culture would attempt to defend such things as artist although I certainly don’t agree.

[Alliance Fanatic]

I pasted a link up above, about the effect of music, and pop culture on children. May I add that youth violence has gone up by astronomical amounts. The fact is that children are impressionable, and this can shape their views on society. I'm not for censorship, however we should not allow any person under 18 to buy this crap, it should be the same as cigarettes and porno, due to the fact that it can have a negative effect on kids and teens.

[Neal.F.]

I must say that I agree with Alliance Fanatic.

Freedon of expression cannot be without limits. there need to be standards set where certian things are not tolerated. I agree with Hugo that the swine who market these ghastly pieces of excrement that they try to pass off as art should be blamed.... Onlty I'll take it further, not just blamed, but prosecuted.

I personally want to punch their lights out for marketing the filth of pop culture to my children.

There was a time, not long ago, when there were "seven words you couldn't say on television". They were much better days. Days when your children were protected from swine who wanted to steal their innocence in the name of the almighty dollar. I am totally in favour of bringing back that kind of censorship, in the name of raising the standard of behaviour this society finds acceptable, instead of lovering the bar so much that you can feel the fires of hell burning your toes as you try to pass under it.

It's time that obscene music was taken off the airwaves, reality and gratuitous sex and violence taken off the TV screens (When sex or violence needs to be present to make a point, it can be done creatively, and to greater effect , by implication) .

And no it would not be boring. the closure of MTV/MuchMusic would improve the quality of life greatly for everyone except the morally bankrupt swine who profit from it. Who needs to watch videos of tattooed "musicians" chasing naked dwarves down the street? Or watching caterpilars eat their way out of people's head through their eyes? Or the little Aguilera trollop doing her stripping nun routine?

We don't allow people to toss McDonalds wrappers on the ground without making them pay a fine. Nor do we allow corporations to dump toxic waste into the water supply. Why should we allow corporations to pour filth and ppollution into the airwaves which empty out into people's living rooms.

This is not about censorship , it's about maintaining standards.

Censorship is not the bad word that libertarians make it out to be. To lock people up for expressing their political opinions in a non-violent and no-inciteful way is wrong, but to tell people that they cannot express their views in the form of a disgusting public spectacle like gay pride parades, other such nonsense is another. there are more civilized ways of making one's views known. It also follows that when people cross the line to incite hatred against Policemen, who symbolize the authority of law and order should NOT be tolerated in a society that values freedom. If you value freedom, we should honour those without whom it would not be possible: ie: armed forces personnel and police.

Now if these "musicians" started singing about hating and beating up a protected minority. then there's be hell to pay.

I wonder if liberals and libertarians can answer this: Why is it acceptable to censor people like Larry Spencer, or call for censorship of Elsie Wayne, or anyone who dares speak out against homosexuality (Bill C-250) but not to censor the filth on MTV and other such venues?

[Alliance Fanatic]

I agree 100% with Neal. We have no problem with censoring the bible, and other religions, yet when it comes to killing police officer's it should be considered art.

[Moderate Centrist]

I agree with the sentiments of both Neal and Alliance Fanatic. However the blame for the decline in pop culture lies squarely with the public.

The people that run record companies probably don't even know half their artists. They're not in business because they love music - they're in business because the want to make money.

Neal with regard to censorship. It's a tricky issue because who gets to decide? I am in favor of the following:

First - self censorhip - or put another way self control. It is my personal responsibility to control what I read, hear and see.

Second - Censorship of distribution - limiting acces to where offensive materials can be purchased, advertised and seen. An example would be putting shows with sexual content, nudity and excessive violence on after say 10 PM, limiting who certain products can be sold to. Covering up the titles of pornographic magazines.

I think censorship of production is too difficult and not worth while in the long run.

We should remember to place a lot of blame on parents as well. Like it or not it's their job (difficult as it may be) to censor what their children are exposed to and what is appropriate.

Take movie theaters for example - movies are rated according to content. The problem is not so much sexually explicit movies as the complete lack of enforcement of age restrictions.

I think people have to look in the mirror and say to themselves I'm part of the problem.

The pornography, pop music business and television industries are big business bringing in billions of dollars a year. They are not going away and it's the fault of the public.

And with regards to censorship I don't take to kindly to people telling me what I can and can't listen to. To those who would tell me I say get lost.

However I completely understand someone telling me to keep my musical tastes to myself.

[KrustyKidd]

13 US Cops killed by gangs in a decade? Must be one of the safest jobs in the world. Probably more died of rectal cancer or from bad bagel dough. The figures have to be wrong.

Freedom of speach and thought is allowed. Leadership is an art. An ability to influence others so that they desire to perform in a certain way. People without a leader often act in ways counter to the desire of normalacy. Frequently violent and anti social.

Know any leaders? These kids do. They're the one's singing.

[SirRiff]

i definately think police officers should be given far more respect in Canada/US, for many many reasons.

however, when you look at what young black men in urban poverty have lived through in the last 50 years, its perfectly understandable this violent subculture has emerged. now while N.W.A. came out to mostly blacks many years ago representing rage, it was marketed as a way to appeal to all young people, and this sort of violent, super sexed music is just another way for kids to "rebell" or be cool or whatever. botton line, its all about money now. hell some of these rappers are worth tens of millions now.

so really, as someone else pointed out, this anti-establishment has been the hallmark of every decade since elvis. hip shaking was shocking and that is why kids liked it. then drugs in the 60s and 70s. then glam metal about partying and girls nad alcohol in the 80s. that whole grunge/i am not understood by my middle class parents in the 90s. to be shocking in recent years requires a massive amount of sex or violence.

frankly i think its just as much a product of industry marketing cycles as anything else.

sex and violence are forever more the true and tried medium of mass marketing.

[Mr. Chater]

A certain type of music puts you into a certain type of mood.

If you listen to rock, your in an energetic mood because of the energy from the song transfers into you somewhat and you "feel" the music. You have all this energy and you want to use it.

If you listen to Rap then your in a pissy mood thinking your invisible and you talk back to much thinking your everything.

Slow songs simply put you into a smooth and romantic mood rdy to impress any girl and just go smoothly.

You see where i'm going here?

[Neal.F.]

[Mod]I agree with the sentiments of both Neal and Alliance Fanatic. However the blame for the decline in pop culture lies squarely with the public]

To a certain extent... after all they elected the spineless turds that removed the restrictions that society had observed for so long, and had served us so well.

[mod]The people that run record companies probably don't even know half their artists. They're not in business because they love music - they're in business because the want to make money.]

When you speak of the execs at Sony and other such operations, they are like any other businessmen. all that matters is the bottom line. I think its time they were held accountable for what they put out. they should not have license to put out any filth they want for the sake of a buck.

As I said, we hold execs responsible for air and water pollution, why not make them accountable for their destruction of the cultural landscape?

Then there are other record company execs. One i can think of is Madonna, head of "Maverick" records. She knows EXACTLY what she is putting out: ie: Britney spears, etc, and she is doing her best to make huge profits, AND destroy the fabric of society.

[mod]Neal with regard to censorship. It's a tricky issue because who gets to decide? I am in favor of the following:

First - self censorhip - or put another way self control. It is my personal responsibility to control what I read, hear and see.]

Filth was always available, only it came in plain brown wrappers, and people did not parade it in public.

[mod]Second - Censorship of distribution - limiting acces to where offensive materials can be purchased, advertised and seen. An example would be putting shows with sexual content, nudity and excessive violence on after say 10 PM, limiting who certain products can be sold to. Covering up the titles of pornographic magazines.]

That is too liberal as far as I'm concerned. Pornography should NEVER be on TV in the first place. That should be a quality standard enforced by the CRTC. Even the prime time sit-coms are chock full of cheap sexual innuendo, and even explicit scenes, and these are on in what used to be called "the family hour". Remeber Ellen degenerate? REmember Roseanne Barr's lesbian kiss?

Someone sent me an article today about a poll that said that 40% of girls in the US admitted to girl-on-girl sex before the age of 18. This is the fruit of Madonna's labour.

[mod]I think censorship of production is too difficult and not worth while in the long run.]

Yes it is. It was done before, until the likes of Trudeau came to power, it can and should be done again.

[mod]We should remember to place a lot of blame on parents as well. Like it or not it's their job (difficult as it may be) to censor what their children are exposed to and what is appropriate.]

I agree with that. Most parents have no idea what their kids are watching. If they think MTV/MuchMusic is a harmless modern version of the Ed Sullivan Show, they have another thing coming. Furthermore, I strongly resent being FORCED to finance those operations via my cable bill. Get rid of cable you say? I would, but you see, my wife wants her CNN, A&E and Newsworld. IF you want those you have to pay for the other filth.

I'd wager that the owners of MuchMusic are terrified that if people could pick and choose which channels they would pay for, that they'd be out of business in a hurry.

[mod]Take movie theaters for example - movies are rated according to content. The problem is not so much sexually explicit movies as the complete lack of enforcement of age restrictions.]

Sorry Mod, but that is just not true. even most childrens movies have blue humour in them these days, and what is now rated PG would have been R rated 20 years ago.

The content is terrible. They almost all convey a post-modern message, present revisionist (read liberal) versions of history, are filled with profanity, and have absolutely unneccessary sexual content that adds nothing to a movie except the titilation factor that is designed to draw in adolescent boys with raging hormones who want to see skin.

Now I'll visit your point about enforcement of age restrictions: Trouble with that is that cinemas and movie studios are businesses, and don't give a damn about protecting youth and innocence. all they care about is the almighty dollar, and if they can get away with letting horny teenage boys into a cinema, they damn well will.

Severe penalties should be applied to enterprises that breach these rules. Nevertheless, I still say, RAISE the bar. Don't lower it.

[mod]I think people have to look in the mirror and say to themselves I'm part of the problem.]

I won't argue with that. Those in the marketplace are PART of the problem. But as long as purveyors of pop-culture filth have the blessing of the state to market their garbage (could it be because of tax revenues? If so then our government shares in this responsibility too), they will continue to push the envelope.

[mod]The pornography, pop music business and television industries are big business bringing in billions of dollars a year. They are not going away and it's the fault of the public.]

Partially the fault of the Public, partly the government for permitting it.

As for Porn, I must say that some of the SPAM that comes in is very disturbing. it is designed to LURE new clients into these websites, and they do not care if these clients are seven or seventy seven, as long as they PAY. how does a child pay?if you'll recall the obscene phone bills that people were getting from their kids calling sex lines, just think about the profits these bastards are making from adolescent boys who

borrow their parents credit cards.

[mod]And with regards to censorship I don't take to kindly to people telling me what I can and can't listen to. To those who would tell me I say get lost.]

Anyone who thinks that the Madonna/hiphop/rap movement is a spontaneous grassroots movement is dreaming. It is a carefully orchestrated marketing assault . It's a whole package: It's the "music" (I use the term losoely, since i can't find a way to equate some pierced, tattoed half naked guy banging on a guitar or a gangsta with two turntables spouting profane doggerel, with for example, Ludwig van, Prokofiev, Chopin etc) It's clothing, it';s jewellery, it's even drugs (ever heard of Ecstasy?) it's Raves.

It is a very unpopular thing to advocate in these "in your face" libertarian times, but standards are neccessary for any society to remain viable and functional.

LEt me assure you, we are headed for, if not already engaged in a civil war of values. It is the post-moderns of the "me" generation, the throwaway society (everthing from resources to babies) those who want the law of the jungle (libertarian anarchy), vs those who believe in the advancement of civilization, edifying culture and the preservation of the values that promote a culture of life.

Watch out: as KrustyKidd pointed out: "Know any leaders? These kids do. They're the one's singing."

What do you suppose would happen if Bono or Madonna ran for President?

You never know, Madonna might. I would not be surprised if she tries in 2008 or 2012. She has the money, the brains and the culture of death agenda. All she needs is the following to come of age. She has laid her foundations well.

[Hugo]

Some very interesting comments here, from both sides. Allow me to stick my oar in again.

A certain type of music puts you into a certain type of mood... You see where i'm going here?

In response to this, I posit that the sort of mind that would be affected by music, a movie or a videogame to the extent that it would cause antisocial action would have to be pretty unhinged anyway. The children who shot up their classmates didn't do it because they played Doom, they did it for a variety of reasons, the largest of which was probably that they were deranged and had no respect for human life and the smallest of which was probably that they played Doom.

The real danger is not that anyone will be pushed off the deep end. The problem is that all this influence gradually changes a society towards one that does not respect life, views violence as a way to solve problems, treats women as whores, and seeks beauty and enjoyment in the grotesque. There's probably more, but you get the point.

I think people have to look in the mirror and say to themselves I'm part of the problem.

That depends upon whether or not they are actually part of the problem. I'm a parent. I do what I can. I closely monitor my kids' TV viewing and use the parental lock feature on my digital box. My eldest son has his own computer with an internet connection, but that connection is firewalled out unless you enter a password that he doesn't know. His computer is in the den, three feet from my computer, so he can't look at anything dodgy in seclusion. They are banned from watching TV after 9pm in all circumstances (even Teletoon gets more adult after the watershed). Their videogames are scrutinised by me before they are loaded.

However, as a parent there is a lot I can't do. As I said, the only McDonalds with a playground in town is next to a sex shop. I can either drive my kids past a window full of S&M outfits and dildoes, or I can just cancel Saturday afternoons at McDonalds with the playground for them. There are many more examples from my own life, but unless anyone really wants to hear them I will save time and leave it to everyone else's imagination as I'm sure you all have your own examples anyway.

You can blame parents if you want, but it's very difficult to be a responsible parent in a culture awash with media violence, sex and foul language. To blame parents is akin to blaming somebody with absolutely no gymnastic experience or training for falling off a tightrope - sure, they did it, but the odds were very strongly against them not doing it in the first place.

But as long as purveyors of pop-culture filth have the blessing of the state to market their garbage... they will continue to push the envelope.

Absolutely. Just look at the way things are progessing. The director's cut of Robocop was X-rated, and Paul Verhoeven had to cut it down to get an R when it was first released. I have the original cut on Criterion DVD, and let me tell you, it is nowhere near as visceral or graphic as Saving Private Ryan, for instance, but Saving Private Ryan got its R and had no trouble with either theatrical or video release.

Jerry Springer started out as a downmarket talk show, but now it has progressed to a game called "how many topless women can Fox fit into a one-hour timeslot without actually becoming the Playboy channel". Cops is advertising their special "topless episode" and "hooker episode". Even Star Trek began as a perfectly respectable family show (the only boundaries it pushed were for ethnic and gender equality), but the first episode of the spin-off Enterprise had a gratuitous shower scene. It was not explicit, but it was completely unnecessary for advancement of the story or character development and obviously only in the show for one reason.

It seems that the only way to go is down, if you want to sell, and that's what these people are after. Springer candidly admitted in an interview that he knew he was making absolute garbage, but he says he is not interested in critical acclaim because he wants the money.

This is why I say that capitalism is only a good system when matched to just law and/or staunch moral fiber. Currently, we have capitalism with unethical law (or, at least, the practice of it) and a moral sewer, and this is where it is taking us.

Pertaining to that, I see two possible choices - either we rein in the capitalism (censorship of media, watersheds and basically saying "thou shalt not" to record companies, movie producers, authors, playwrights, and so on - just law), or we get some moral backbone as a society and just refuse to buy this stuff. If it stops making money, it'll disappear. Records and movies habitually cost hundreds of millions to produce and promote nowadays, and if the products of that process are net losses, the companies making them will pull out.

I would personally prefer the latter, because even if someone finds a loophole and releases something nobody will be interested. I am not a fan of censorship, and I would not want a legal system that would prevent the release and dissemination of genuinely artistic yet controversial pieces. Lady Chatterley's Lover was once banned, but D.H. Lawrence is not a pornographer. Fight Club is an excellent and well-crafted film that has a great deal to offer on many levels and is definitely not just another mindless, violent summer blockbuster. Yes, it is shockingly violent, however, the movie would not work without that. While I wouldn't want kids or even squeamish adults to watch it, I do think that for those who can stomach the violent imagery it is a genuine piece of art that can be enjoyed as such.

However, this is for most people a personal choice. The authorities that stand for moral fiber are no longer heeded, the authorities that people listen to now are usually the people making money from moral sewage anyway.

[Brainiac]

May I add that youth violence has gone up by astronomical amounts.

This is in large part to the zero tolerance policies put in place by schools. Everytime there is a fight in a school yard the police are called and that is added to the youth violence stats. Youth aren't getting more violent, they are just becoming more visible to the police through these policies.

As for all the lyrics about hating the police, that originally came from a part of the United States that suffered from a very public racist police department problem. People like NWA were writing songs about their situation...as for the 'artists' these days it is mostly just another form of rebellion. What better authority figure to rebel against than a police officer...especially when you see them on a regular basis. The racist police officers that worked for the LAPD should share responsibility for the sentiment towards the police in todays pop culture, and every power tripping or racist officer out there just adds to it making it that much more difficult for the rest of us who just want to do our job.

[Neal.F.]

Just another thought, on the subject of people having the ability to just stop buying the filth.

My observation is that people will accept any swill that is dished out to them especially if it is slickly marketed.

Which is why I think purveyors of trashy pop culture need to be reined in.