U.S. to Require Passenger Lists for Flights

[Wilber]

As one wag asked, will US carriers using the Cuban corridor now be giving the same information to the Cuban government under the same conditions? They will have no grounds to refuse it.

[bush_cheney2004]

As one wag asked, will US carriers using the Cuban corridor now be giving the same information to the Cuban government under the same conditions? They will have no grounds to refuse it.

Have the Cubans asked for the same information?

[Wilber]

Have the Cubans asked for the same information?

It's just speculation. What if they do?

[bush_cheney2004]

It's just speculation. What if they do?

I suspect that the small matter of not having diplomatic relations my hinder such an accommodation. Overflight protocols already exist between both countries.

[Wilber]

I suspect that the small matter of not having diplomatic relations my hinder such an accommodation. Overflight protocols already exist between both countries.

They might but then protocols exist with other nations. You are demanding changes to those protocols.

[bush_cheney2004]

They might but then protocols exist with other nations. You are demanding changes to those protocols.

Correct....but no party is compelled to comply with such requests. There are choices to be made.

[Wilber]

Correct....but no party is compelled to comply with such requests. There are choices to be made.

Yup

[Guest American Woman]

As one wag asked, will US carriers using the Cuban corridor now be giving the same information to the Cuban government under the same conditions? They will have no grounds to refuse it.

I have no problem with giving Cuba that information; not that Cuba would be a huge obstacle to fly around should your hypothetical take place. That is if U.S. airlines even fly into Cuban airspace.

[guyser]

That is if U.S. airlines even fly into Cuban airspace.

You mean with "paying" passengers doncha?

[Wilber]

That is if U.S. airlines even fly into Cuban airspace.

They do, there is a corridor for overflights.

[Guest American Woman]

You mean with "paying" passengers doncha?

Yep, I did mean commercial flights.

That is if U.S. airlines even fly into Cuban airspace.

They do, there is a corridor for overflights.

I can't find any proof of that. What's your source? Can you provide a link?

Edited to add:

Looks as if they do, but they pay for the privilege. Cuba charges for use of it's overflight corridor and these fees bring in "significant revenue."

Edited October 17, 2007 by American Woman

[Wilber]

It's hard to find anything official but here are a couple of links. Other than that my source is myself. I used that route on the way from Toronto and Montreal to Montego Bay years ago. It's not a new thing. It's one of those contradictions where the US government allows Americans to pay the Cubans to use their airspace but forbids them to travel to the place. Not something they want to advertise I guess.

Link 1Link 2

[Guest American Woman]

It's one of those contradictions where the US government allows Americans to pay the Cubans to use their airspace but forbids them to travel to the place. Not something they want to advertise I guess.

Thank you for the links.

The government doesn't exactly forbid us to travel to Cuba, but forbids us to spend money there, making this a definite contradiction. Figures that it's ok for Big Business to spend money in Cuba but not the citizens. :angry: I'll tell you one thing, I'd sure argue that if I ever went to Cuba and my government got on my case for it.

[Wilber]

Looks as if they do, but they pay for the privilege. Cuba charges for use of it's overflight corridor and these fees bring in "significant revenue."

Yes they do pay but so does everyone else. You also pay fees to use Canadian airspace because air traffic control and flight services are operated by Nav Canada, a company, not the civil service. Canadian carriers also pay for the service.

[Guest American Woman]

Yes they do pay but so does everyone else. You also pay fees to use Canadian airspace because air traffic control and flight services are operated by Nav Canada, a company, not the civil service. Canadian carriers also pay for the service.

"Canada to Canada" flights don't have to pay to use U.S. airspace.

[Wilber]

"Canada to Canada" flights don't have to pay to use U.S. airspace.

That may be true, I'm not sure. It's not a case of us charging Americans for using our airspace. We charge everyone including ourselves. I guess it's like private and public medicare in reverse.

[Guest American Woman]

That may be true, I'm not sure. It's not a case of us charging Americans for using our airspace. We charge everyone including ourselves. I guess it's like private and public medicare in reverse.

...the FAA will ... assess a fee for air traffic and related services provided to users of aircraft that transit U.S.-controlled airspace (airspace owned or delegated to the United States) but do not take off from or land in the United States. The rule does not apply to military and civil aircraft operated by the U.S. Government or by a foreign government or to certain Canada-to-Canada flights.

Canada-to-Canada operations are defined (hereafter "Canada-to- Canada'") as flights conducted by any aircraft of any nationality that take off from and land in Canada without an intermediate stop outside of Canada that operate in U.S.-controlled airspace.

Link

Edited to add:

In thinking about it, this might explain why "Canada to Canada" flights are exempt from having to supply our government with the information required of Canadian international flights that cross U.S. airspace. Seems Canada is given special status, and as such, it would seem likely that regarding Canada to Some Other Country flights, since the return flight has to originiate from Some Other Country, perhaps its Some Other Country that the U.S. is taking issue with, and not Canada.

Edited October 17, 2007 by American Woman

[Wilber]

In thinking about it, this might explain why "Canada to Canada" flights are exempt from having to supply our government with the information required of Canadian international flights that cross U.S. airspace. Seems Canada is given special status, and as such, it would seem likely that regarding Canada to Some Other Country flights, since the return flight has to originiate from Some Other Country, perhaps its Some Other Country that the U.S. is taking issue with, and not Canada.

I doubt it.

[Higgly]

I doubt it.

Me too. There are whacko US senators and Congresspersons getting up and making speeches about Canada being the largest repository of terrorists in the world. Funny how these are the same people who routinely say the same thing about Iraq, Iran... fill in the country.

There are a lot of people who believe that the 9/11 terrorists came from up here.

[Wilber]

I certainly wouldn't go that far. Many of their concerns are sincere, I just don't think pissing off your allies is the right way of dealing with them.

[Guest American Woman]

I certainly wouldn't go that far. Many of their concerns are sincere, I just don't think pissing off your allies is the right way of dealing with them.

So if you don't think pissing off your allies is the right way of dealing with them, shouldn't Canada not be pissing us off by agreeing to abide by our request out of concern for our safety? Or do you think the U.S. is the only nation who shouldn't do anything to piss off their allies?

I pointed out to you how we don't charge Canada for using our airspace for Canada-to-Canada flights (your welcome for that, btw. ). The U.S. isn't requiring the requested information for Canada-to-Canada flights either (it seems your appreciation for that is also totally lacking), and while at first it didn't make sense to me, the possible explanation I gave would certainly be plausible. Since you liked using the example of Cuba, I"ll go with that too. Let's take a Canada-to-Cuba flight. The flight goes out of your country, our ally. On the return, it goes out of Cuba. Not our ally. So how is requesting the information regarding that flight 'not trusting our ally?' Cuba is in there too, is it not?

Of course you just completely dismissed my explanation, even though it makes perfectly good sense. I guess the only way we can be a good ally to you is to do things your way. Is that is?

Edited to add:

Ok. Reading through that again .... maybe it doesn't make sense since the passenger list wouldn't change.

Guess I don't really get it.

Edited October 17, 2007 by American Woman

[jdobbin]

I pointed out to you how we don't charge Canada for using our airspace for Canada-to-Canada flights (your welcome for that, btw. ).

Canada doesn't charge for overflights by the U.S. either.

[Guest American Woman]

Canada doesn't charge for overflights by the U.S. either.

Wilber said you do.

Edited October 17, 2007 by American Woman

[jdobbin]

Wilber said you do.

It is a reciprocal agreement as far as I can remember.

http://www.navcanada.ca/ContentDefinitionF...detailsE_en.pdf

[Wilber]

Let's take a Canada-to-Cuba flight. The flight goes out of your country, our ally. On the return, it goes out of Cuba. Not our ally. So how is requesting the information regarding that flight 'not trusting our ally?' Cuba is in there too, is it not?

I see your point but if it is our aircraft, it is our responsibility regardless of whether the flight is leaving Canada or Cuba.

By the way, I made a small edit to the paragraph that offended you. I haven't changed my opinion but it was wrong to single you out.