"christian scammers/scandals abound"

[margrace]

I do not have time tonight to read all of Ecclesiastical History. Can you please tell me the chapter?

Ecclesiastical History, chapter 17 book 2. Now give me a time date for new age writers.

[jefferiah]

Ecclesiastical History, chapter 17 book 2. Now give me a time date for new age writers.

Ah, re-read what I said Margrace. I said that Massey is what we would today call a new ager. I anticipated this at the time.

[margrace]

Ah, re-read what I said Margrace. I said that Massey is what we would today call a new ager. I anticipated this at the time.

Seems to be a very convenient reply since Massey lived in the 1800's and was a specialist on Egyptology, but perhaps one of his problems is the he asserted that Every person must do his own thinking and have absolute freedom of expression.

Is that why you call him New Age?

[margrace]

I have s loved the christmas story with all its pageantry all my life but I have always been aware that it was a myth, a celebration of the coming of the new year and that spring would come again. It is allagory.

[margrace]

Ah, re-read what I said Margrace. I said that Massey is what we would today call a new ager. I anticipated this at the time.

Now I have gone back and read this again and wonder what exactly you mean, what is a new ager.

[jefferiah]

I have s loved the christmas story with all its pageantry all my life but I have always been aware that it was a myth, a celebration of the coming of the new year and that spring would come again. It is allagory.

But every Christian is aware that Christmas is a holday invented afterward. Nobody knows Margrace what time of year the events of Jesus' birth happened or if Jesus really was (in Kris Kristofferson's words) a Capricorn. The story of Jesus birth was written well before anyone knew it was even going to used as a holiday for the month of December.

The fact that Massey was an Egyptologist has nothing to do with his authority on Christian history. He was also a Druid and a person who wrote books making similar claims that New Agers, like Acharya does today, based on just as little, or a convenient lie here and there. Thus the comparison.

Can you please quote this passage from Eusebius for me?

I can't even find book 2 online. U of Calgary has 5 and up.

What I am guessing I will find is that someone is misrepresenting Eusebius' talking about Christian symbolism, which predates Christianity and enter into the realm of Jewish tradition. In fact one could say from a Christian perspective that Passover is a foreshadowing prophetic drama the Jews performed for years without knowing its meaning until it was fulfilled.

Since Eusebius wrote some apologetic works claiming authority of the scripture it would have to be a very liberal interpretation of some chapter.

Edited October 18, 2007 by jefferiah

[jefferiah]

Ah ha. I had trouble finding it. I did find a book on Church History but I was not sure if that was it. So I took Book 6 Chapter 1 of this Church History and compared with the Book 6 Chapter 1 of Eccles. History on the U of Calgary site. Same book. And the following chapters in both respective Book 6s matched as well. So here is Book 2 Chapter 17. Whatever your source is that is telling you that this is saying a certain thing, they must be giving you a very very liberal interpretation Margrace.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf201.iii.vii.xviii.html

[jefferiah]

"Gerald Massey [1828 – 1907 AD] in his Lectures [published privately c1900 AD, but written over several decades prior to this], described many of the concepts we now associate with an Astrological Age [though the concept had yet to be given this name] some forty years before Jung first writes on the subject.

He describes the effect of Precession as moving the Vernal Equinox into the Sign of the Fishes, whereas it had previously been in the Sign of the Bull. He uses 2155 years for the length of what we would now call a 'Platonic' Month. He looks forward to a new Messiah, "when the Equinox enters the Sign of the Waterman about the end of this century", [which for him would be the end of the nineteenth century] i.e. the start of what we would now call the Age of Aquarius. In this latter respect he is very different from Jung's decidedly non-Messianic view of a New Age."

http://www.geocities.com/astrologyages/ger...seywaterman.htm

[margrace]

First off I did quote exactly what Euseblus said so why you want it repeated is beyond me, just go back and read it. It seems that you want to argue small points. As far as the story of Jesus goes it is also part of the legend of Mithras including the virgin birth and death on the cross as well as in the Egyptian Osiris myths, written eons before the alledged Jesus myths.

Constantine who put the bible together was no Christian, he just wanted power that would make him the Sun God

[margrace]

A Christianity before Christianity

The first followers of Jesus adhered to a creed very different from the Christian Faith we know today. Indeed, the discovery of the Gnostic Gospels in 1945 is changing our whole understanding of Christianity. Rooted in ancient mystery regions, the Gnostic movement maintained that the devinity lies in each of us and can find our way to God through self knowledge. Gnostics saw the life and death of Jesus in metaphorical terms. According to some scholars, however, the Gnostic form of Chrisianity was pushed aside by a literalist movement that saw Jesus as the only begotten son, and emphasized the vast gulf between man and the devine. By the third century, Orthodox Christianity had allied itself with the Roman State, establishing a religious monopoly.

This re enforces my belief in that Chrisianity as we know it today is a control of man religion and has nothing to do with the true teachings of Jesus

[M.Dancer]

A Christianity before Christianity

The first followers of Jesus adhered to a creed very different from the Christian Faith we know today. ............

This re enforces my belief in that Chrisianity as we know it today is a control of man religion and has nothing to do with the true teachings of Jesus

You might want to wrap that tripe in a quote.

[margrace]

You might want to wrap that tripe in a quote.

Why? That is my own belief.

[M.Dancer]

Why? That is my own belief.

Great. In that case you are a plagiarist.

[M.Dancer]

A Christianity before Christianity

The first followers of Jesus adhered to a creed very different from the Christian Faith we know today. Indeed, the discovery of the Gnostic Gospels in 1945 is changing our whole understanding of Christianity. Rooted in ancient mystery regions, the Gnostic movement maintained that the devinity lies in each of us and can find our way to God through self knowledge. Gnostics saw the life and death of Jesus in metaphorical terms. According to some scholars, however, the Gnostic form of Chrisianity was pushed aside by a literalist movement that saw Jesus as the only begotten son, and emphasized the vast gulf between man and the devine. By the third century, Orthodox Christianity had allied itself with the Roman State, establishing a religious monopoly.

This re enforces my belief in that Chrisianity as we know it today is a control of man religion and has nothing to do with the true teachings of Jesus

Margraves "beliefs" can be found in their entirity here......

http://www.visiontv.ca/Media/Releases/Myths_Mankind.html

The documentary series Myths of Mankind investigates the origins and meanings of these great stories, teasing out the facts beneath the fictions and exposing the deeper truths that they communicate.

On Mondays, starting May 24 at 9 p.m. ET, VisionTV presents seven brand new national premiere episodes of this Dutch-produced program, along with four previously broadcast installments. Myths of Mankind airs as part of the network's “History, Mystery, Travel & Treasure†documentary series.

The series opens with a look at Homer's account of the fall of Troy from the Iliad , the legendary tale that inspired the forthcoming Brad Pitt blockbuster Troy . This is followed by a challenging two-part examination of Christian belief in the divinity of Jesus – the explosive issue at the heart of author Dan Brown's best-selling theological thriller The Da Vinci Code .

Myths of Mankind was produced and directed by Roel Oostra for Cresset Communications.

*snip*

June 7 - “A Christianity Before Christianityâ€

The first followers of Jesus adhered to a creed very different from the Christian faith we know today. Indeed, the discovery of the so-called Gnostic gospels in 1945 is changing our whole understanding of early Christianity. Rooted in ancient mystery religions, the Gnostic movement maintained that divinity lies in each of us, and that we can find our way to God through self-knowledge. Gnostics saw the life and death of Jesus in purely metaphorical terms. However, the Gnostic form of Christianity was pushed aside by a literalist movement that saw Jesus as the only begotten Son of God, and emphasized the vast gulf between man and the divine – a gulf that could only be bridged by the church. By the fourth century, Orthodox Christianity had allied itself with the Roman state, establishing a religious monopoly.

This should cast margraves "beliefs" in the proper light.....

[Drea]

the Gnostic movement maintained that the devinity lies in each of us and can find our way to God through self knowledge. Gnostics saw the life and death of Jesus in metaphorical terms. According to some scholars, however, the Gnostic form of Chrisianity was pushed aside by a literalist movement that saw Jesus as the only begotten son, and emphasized the vast gulf between man and the devine. By the third century, Orthodox Christianity had allied itself with the Roman State, establishing a religious monopoly.

This re enforces my belief in that Chrisianity as we know it today is a control of man religion and has nothing to do with the true teachings of Jesus

Thank you Margrace!

Jesus was not a Christian. He was a man who taught that the god could be found within oneself. It was only much later (centuries!) that some men invented the Christian religion and created the divide between "heaven" and "earth". In Jesus' eyes we are all "divine".

Because of what humans (men mostly) have done to religion it's no wonder people turn away from it.

Watched "Elizabeth" on TV the other night. It was amazing how brutal it was between the sects of Christianity. Utterly brutal.

Now don't go bringing Islam's brutality into it -- this thread is about Chrisitanity even though it evolved from "evangelists stealing people's money" to "what religion was Jesus anyway".

Edited October 18, 2007 by Drea

[ScottSA]

Great. In that case you are a plagiarist.

Quote sniffing Momo unmasks another plagiarist!

I have had a lot of fun watching jefferiah, whose debating skills, at least on this topic, have become quite good, slay the opposition so badly that they all dropped out except margrace and an occasional cheerleader. Now it seems that margrace has been pushed so far into the corner that she has to resort to plagiarizing second rate new age conspiracy sites. That's kinda the icing on the cake!

[ScottSA]

Watched "Elizabeth" on TV the other night. It was amazing how brutal it was between the sects of Christianity. Utterly brutal.

'Was' is perhaps the operant here. 'Is' is the operant with regard to islam. I don't know why some folks have such a hard time getting that.

[Drea]

'Was' is perhaps the operant here. 'Is' is the operant with regard to islam. I don't know why some folks have such a hard time getting that.

Is it not clear? We are not pitting Islam against Christianity. Once again, the thread is about Christianity.

Why do you feel the need to compare it to Islam?

You are like the person who talks about Canada and says "we are NOT America!" when everyone else is simply talking about the country and NOT COMPARING it at all.... geez.

[margrace]

Hi Drea, I am a little confused about all this. I was thoroughly enjoying the discussion with Jeff, lost his name spelling, when these other posters must have thought he needed some help. Are they trying to shut me up I wonder and why. I did post the title of the article I was quoting, so does that constitute Plagerism?

[M.Dancer]

I did post the title of the article I was quoting, so does that constitute Plagerism?

Ummm.....yes. You also posted the first senyance too. And the last. And especially when you DON't post a link.

And when I said you should put a quote around it you answered blondely:

Why? That is my own belief.

[jefferiah]

First off I did quote exactly what Euseblus said so why you want it repeated is beyond me, just go back and read it. It seems that you want to argue small points. As far as the story of Jesus goes it is also part of the legend of Mithras including the virgin birth and death on the cross as well as in the Egyptian Osiris myths, written eons before the alledged Jesus myths.

Constantine who put the bible together was no Christian, he just wanted power that would make him the Sun God

First off, what you quoted is not in Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History Book 2 Chapter 17. Secondly, we already had a thread on here concerning the Mithra connection, which is also an old argument which gets raised over and over, and then is debunked quite rationally.

First off most of the so-called similarities between Mithra and Jesus, are not even true. Nowhere in the wealth of Mithraic literature is there any mention of his being born of a virgin, but he was born out of a rock. No twelve disciples. If you are looking in the works of people like S Acharya or someone similar they are simply fabricating Mithra facts out of thin air. Or else she has Mithraic texts that no one else possesses. Mithraic scholars emphatically deny these so-called similarities.

Since I have already posted on this topic I will just quote one of those posts....saves a lot reading for me.

"The similarities between pagan mystery cults and Christianity are very skewed. Nowhere is Mithra said to have been born of a virgin or born on December 25th. There is no mention of his death. There is no source which says he had 12 disciples. There is no documentation of shepherds attending his birth. Actually there is very very little documentation on the subject of Mithra or Mithras. Alot of this stuff you read on websites claiming the similarities is very very very skewed and ridiculous. Most of these claims are based on stretching what sources you have. As I said Mithraic scholars do not even accept this nonsense. And also even though the pagan religions pre date Christianity, alot of the material they are citing is not pre Christian writing----but actually pagan writings from about 400 AD. They beg borrow and steal from every pagan religion to find a similarity, and where the similarities aren't they invent them through very liberal interpretation.

Christianity is based on Judaism. The death of Jesus parallels the death of the Passover Lamb. The entire Last Supper is based on the Passover. This is where the real striking parallels are. And Messianic Jews are the best to explain them.

The mention of pagan Baptismal ceremonies also require a great deal of stretching. The comparison is often made between Osiris being drowned in his coffin. Somehow this now becomes the equivalent of Christian baptism. Or the agrarian mention of cycles and rebirth of vegetation becomes Ressurection???? "

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=9621

[M.Dancer]

The mention of pagan Baptismal ceremonies also require a great deal of stretching. The comparison is often made between Osiris being drowned in his coffin. Somehow this now becomes the equivalent of Christian baptism. Or the agrarian mention of cycles and rebirth of vegetation becomes Ressurection???? "

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=9621

Baptism is a jewish ritual. Baptism is a greek word, the Hebrew word would be Mikvah.

Other religions have ritual bathing, no big deal, but John (the Mikvaher) wasn't immitating other religions, he was simply being Jewish.

[margrace]

First off, what you quoted is not in Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History Book 2 Chapter 17. Secondly, we already had a thread on here concerning the Mithra connection, which is also an old argument which gets raised over and over, and then is debunked quite rationally.

Well Tom Harper says it is in his book "The Pagan Christ" so why wasn't he challenged when this was published.

[M.Dancer]

Well Tom Harper says it is in his book "The Pagan Christ" so why wasn't he challenged when this was published.

Do you come from the "if I don't see it, it doesn't exist" school of debate?

http://www.mcmaster.ca/mjtm/pdfs/MJTM%206....on%20Harpur.pdf

http://www.tektonics.org/harpur01.html

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0MK..._28/ai_n6102291

http://hnn.us/articles/6641.html

[margrace]

I love the fact that so many people have been following this forum, but I wonder is that what brought on the nastiness, can't have any truths read I guess