Conservatives keeping list of Jews

[Shakeyhands]

To quote Shakey's article.

So I guess there goes your argument on that one.

Just *scary* *scary* *scary* without regard to decency or respect. Good thing there hasn't been a ruling yet on this travesty of a thread.

Off topic, but do you really think that if you use your "*scary* *scary* *scary*" line oft enough that it will minimize the actual scariness of the CPC to the majority of the country?

The argument was just as valid before the link to the story as after, if the privacy act was contravened the CPC must deal with the fall out. Scary buggers.

[jdobbin]

The way I read it, the complaints were made by Jennings, a third party, and not by any greeting card recipient allegedly offended by receiving it? By her actions, is Jennings in fact not invading their privacy? I know I would strongly object if someone filed a complaint on my behalf without my consent and an investigation ensued.

The privacy commissioner's office also appears to be saying the preliminary enquiries are undertaken as the result of the media story. This is another case where I would object if a government agency began an enquiry on a matter affecting me personally without my consent.

The Privacy Commissioner's office responds to individual complaints. Its investigations are not dictated by third party requests. They don't investigate based on people being offended but whether their privacy has been violated.

Edited October 12, 2007 by jdobbin

[jdobbin]

Well this is interesting... wonder where it will go.

At least some people will get a report as to how their name and religion ended up on a mailing list without consent.

[jdobbin]

Did you not read the "may" that is in the title?

The investigation into Conservative MP Cheryl Gallant has not been completed but indicates that the issues of privacy and Tory lists has come up before.

http://www.privacylawyer.ca/blog/2006/01/p...f-beholder.html

Deep River resident Leslie White, who has no affiliation to any political party, said her husband and mother both received birthday cards from Gallant last month. Both had recently had passports processed through Gallant's office. Other constituents have come forward with similar stories, including a 19-year-old man. Gallant couldn't explain how he came to get a card, but said they are sent out on request and most people are happy to get one.

"In the five years I've been a member of Parliament, two days into this election was the first time I had ever received a complaint about receiving a birthday card," Gallant said. "So I almost wonder if somebody gave us the referral and knew that she didn't like it and that it would put her off her rocker, so to speak."

[Visionseeker]

The extent of this thread shows to great lengths how far Conservative supporters will go to defend a stupid mistake; a mistake that has been exposed in at least three temples that I am aware of. The Rabbis in each warned the gathering about flattery and cautioned them about a government that readily identifies them as a Jew. As the goy in the crowd, I could still sense the unease felt by the message delivered.

Edited October 12, 2007 by Visionseeker

[jdobbin]

Off topic, but do you really think that if you use your "*scary* *scary* *scary*" line oft enough that it will minimize the actual scariness of the CPC to the majority of the country?

The argument was just as valid before the link to the story as after, if the privacy act was contravened the CPC must deal with the fall out. Scary buggers.

The moderators are aware of the thread and rest assured, if they thought it was inflammatory, they would have dealt with it.

As for privacy, there have been several dismissals of the whole idea that keeping a list of people's religion without their consent is nothing of importance. People's privacy is extremely important.

[Michael Bluth]

Off topic, but do you really think that if you use your "*scary* *scary* *scary*" line oft enough that it will minimize the actual scariness of the CPC to the majority of the country?

The argument was just as valid before the link to the story as after, if the privacy act was contravened the CPC must deal with the fall out. Scary buggers.

If the Conservatives were as scary as you say they are then there would be no need to use inflammatory thread titles to rekindle the scariness by making vague allusions to the Nazis.

Too bad it appears that the privacy act wasn't contravened. That's what the story you linked to said.

[Fortunata]

Too bad it appears that the privacy act wasn't contravened. That's what the story you linked to said.

the article said: "and said that although her office is not covered under the jurisdiction of the privacy commissioner, they've always conducted business as if it was."

But if her staffers are using passport information that should be strictly confidential between the passport office and the passport applicant, if the office were under the jurisdiction of the privacy commissioner, I would say that would be a direct contravention. In fact it should be a no-no even by your standards MB.

[ScottSA]

the article said: "and said that although her office is not covered under the jurisdiction of the privacy commissioner, they've always conducted business as if it was."

But if her staffers are using passport information that should be strictly confidential between the passport office and the passport applicant, if the office were under the jurisdiction of the privacy commissioner, I would say that would be a direct contravention. In fact it should be a no-no even by your standards MB.

Well sure, and if they followed Jewish kids home to see who their parents were, and hid in the closets of Jewish homes, and imported lists from Nazi archives, I'm sure there'd be grounds for panic too, but until such time as we have the slightest bit of evidence that anything even slightly untoward occured, why don't we just call a card a card? Gawd, I can't believe the legs this silly thread has.

[Shakeyhands]

If the Conservatives were as scary as you say they are then there would be no need to use inflammatory thread titles to rekindle the scariness by making vague allusions to the Nazis.

Too bad it appears that the privacy act wasn't contravened. That's what the story you linked to said.

You're the one who keeps bringing up this *scary* *scary* *scary* label, not any one else, but really that a discussion for another day...

I've read, reread and reread again the article and can't see where it says the privacy wasn't contravened. Me thinks you should take another look. If you are refering to this sentence in the article:

This mailing may not fall under the jurisdiction of the Privacy Act if it did not use public resources

I'd question your reading comprehension as the word "MAY" is kinda key...

I would have thought you would be bothered by the possibility of this, frankly shameless, use of private information Bluth.

http://www.thestar.com/News/Canada/article/265982

[Michael Bluth]

I'd question your reading comprehension as the word "MAY" is kinda key...

I would have thought you would be bothered by the possibility of this, frankly shameless, use of private information Bluth.

http://www.thestar.com/News/Canada/article/265982

'May' is totally the key. Nobody has ever been convicted for 'may'. Innocent until proven guilty and all that good stuff.

Now that dobbin has finally moved off his inflammatory title.

If the Conservatives are proven to have use public resources and contravened the Privacy Act then it is an issue.

*May* means that it is all rhetoric and not an issue.

[Shakeyhands]

wrong. May means it needs to be investigated, not that its a non-issue. May means that they may have done it or they may not have. May means that we're all gonna find out for sure now.

[jdobbin]

Gawd, I can't believe the legs this silly thread has.

It goes on because of the dismissive response to the issue of privacy and consent.

The fact that an inquiry has been reported should give pause to the dismissals. It hasn't though and that is one of the reasons the thread seems to be continuing.

[jdobbin]

Two Jewish lobby groups say there is nothing nefarious about the lists the Conservatives are keeping.

http://canadianpress.google.com/article/AL...PoPJi0gGcMfBmiA

here is nothing "nefarious" about Prime Minister Stephen Harper compiling a mailing list of Jewish Canadians and sending their households holiday greetings, two prominent Jewish lobby groups said Friday.

Their comments come amid news the federal privacy commissioner has begun an inquiry into last month's Rosh Hashanah greetings, following several complaints from private citizens.

Some recipients complained to the media that they could not understand how they had been identified and did not appreciate the gesture. Several also contacted privacy commissioner Jennifer Stoddart.

An expert in Jewish studies said the notion of lists of Jews being kept by political parties or governments has dark historical echoes for some Holocaust survivors and their descendents.

But both Bernie Farber of the Canadian Jewish Congress and Frank Dimant of B'nai Brith Canada praised what they called government outreach and said there should be no controversy.

"I don't think there's anything nefarious here whatsoever," said Farber, who's received greeting cards from various political parties for the past 20 years.

Dimant turned the tables and said anyone complaining about Harper's Jewish new year greeting has a political agenda.

"I really do think there's a very sinister motivation by individuals who are asking for an examination of where these lists came from or how they were accumulated," Dimant said in an interview.

He welcomed the greeting, calling it a first for a Canadian prime minister, and said he hopes "it's a tradition that prime ministers down the line will carry on."

However, some people are still wondering how the lists were compiled.

Sara Horowitz, the director of the Centre for Jewish Studies at York University in Toronto, agreed there's nothing sinister in the Conservative mailing but understands why the cards might rub some Jews the wrong way.

Canada's Jewish community has a very high percentage of Holocaust survivors and their direct descendants, she said, something in the range of 30 to 40 per cent. Only Israel has a higher per capita population of Holocaust survivors.

"People have deep historical memories and things resonate for them," she said.

Some Canadian Jews of European background may remember how quickly the tables turned in the 1930s.

"They might say, 'been there, done that,"' said Horowitz.

Horowitz added that Jews in modern western democracies pride themselves on being equal citizens in the civic arena, a hard-won right that dates back to the Enlightenment when the idea first arose that "you were a Jew in your home and a citizen out in the public arena."

"Jewish communities have taken a certain kind of comfort in that," she said. "So when the government addresses us, I think many Jews feel that the government should address us as citizens."

And Horowitz, too, wonders just how the Conservatives compiled their mailing list.

So does Trudi Berger.

The Toronto-area woman planned to lodge a complaint with the privacy commissioner's office Friday after receiving a Rosh Hashanah card from Harper.

The two lobby groups don't really address the issue of whether people who have not consented, should have mail addressed to them based on information collected from undetermined sources.

[Wilber]

Sixteen pages of people getting sweaty because a political party sent out a card for a religious holiday. The US wants your travel itinerary even though you aren't going to set foot in the place and it's no big deal. No wonder Entertainment Tonight is such a successful show.

[jdobbin]

Sixteen pages of people getting sweaty because a political party sent out a card for a religious holiday. The US wants your travel itinerary even though you aren't going to set foot in the place and it's no big deal.

Personal information should be a big deal, especially when it is gathered without consent.

The U.S. measure are a two step deal. The first is for overflights to places like Mexico and Brazil. Next year, according to the reports from the AP, it is supposed to include trips within the U.S. itself city to city. It seems unlikely that trips from Canadian city to Canadian city will be exempt if they fly over the U.S. It could be that a Canadian is removed from a flight even though they are not deemed a risk in Canada but have been deemed a risk in the U.S.

[jefferiah]

Sixteen pages of people getting sweaty because a political party sent out a card for a religious holiday.

Correction: Sixteen pages of JDobbin getting sweaty........

[Wilber]

And I wonder why Entertainment Tonight is such a popular show.

[betsy]

http://www.canada.com/topics/news/national...c8e&k=58596

Unsolicited mail that seems to comes from lists people keep makes a lot of people nervous. The fact that the Tories are keeping lists of Jews is rather disturbing.

What's so disturbing about that?

Ask her if she ever bought or entered or joined or subscribed to anything. Mailing lists are sold everyday!

[jdobbin]

What's so disturbing about that?

Ask her if she ever bought or entered or joined or subscribed to anything. Mailing lists are sold everyday!

Subscriptions and loyalty cards have in the fine print that they provide your information to their advertisers and by applying, you consent to have that information shared.

There is no indication of consent in the lists that were compiled. It would be as if someone in these forums determined who you were, what your address was and found out everything about you and shared it with others without your consent. It would be a violation of your privacy.

[Michael Bluth]

Correction: Sixteen pages of JDobbin getting sweaty........

At least he changed the thread title.

Alas we keep feeding him so we get what we deserve.

[capricorn]

Much ado about nothing?

But both Bernie Farber of the Canadian Jewish Congress and Frank Dimant of B'nai Brith Canada praised what they called government outreach and said there should be no controversy.

"I don't think there's anything nefarious here whatsoever," said Farber, who's received greeting cards from various political parties for the past 20 years.

Dimant turned the tables and said anyone complaining about Harper's Jewish new year greeting has a political agenda.

http://canadianpress.google.com/article/AL...PoPJi0gGcMfBmiA

Is it time to turn the page? I think so.

[jdobbin]

Is it time to turn the page? I think so.

This article was already quoted here.

You forgot to add this from the article:

Horowitz, too, wonders just how the Conservatives compiled their mailing list.

So does Trudi Berger.

The Toronto-area woman planned to lodge a complaint with the privacy commissioner's office Friday after receiving a Rosh Hashanah card from Harper.

"The fact this was addressed specifically to my family was disturbing," Berger said Friday.

"I'm not Jewish and I don't know how they would have come to that conclusion. I think it's just profiling in terms of, well, that's my last name so automatically," the family is Jewish.

Berger said she contacted Harper's office to complain and received a phone message in return saying "'We'll take you off the list.'

"Well excuse me, I'd like to know why I'm on the list. There's another issue here. I took offence to that. My concern is how my family got on that list."

[capricorn]

This article was already quoted here.

So it was, and compliments of yourself. Thanks for pointing out my slippage. It is a flogging I deserve for keeping this ship afloat. (heard that MB?)

So let's get on with the complaints. I much prefer the arbitration of complaints from parties personally offended rather than the rantings of Marlene Jennings.

[jdobbin]

So it was, and compliments of yourself. Thanks for pointing out my slippage. It is a flogging I deserve for keeping this ship afloat. (heard that MB?)

So let's get on with the complaints. I much prefer the arbitration of complaints from parties personally offended rather than the rantings of Marlene Jennings.

And indeed there are people who received the mailing who would like to know how they ended up on the list. I don't know that they were offended but they do feel their privacy has been invaded.