Evening Star

Yeah, I didn't think I would ever say this before but I appreciate my high school education so much more now, looking back. Rote learning, memorization, and even respect for authority are all valuable skills and educational tools, no doubt, but by no means is that all that Canadian public schools do. There was plenty of discussion and topical debate as well as group work and serious creative projects in my education.

They may have failed to learn Canadian values but that doesn't mean they couldn't pass a test. Let's say I'm a conservative Muslim who's watched a few Hollywood movies or US network sitcoms and maybe had a talk with someone else who passed the test (which would probably not even be necessary). Maybe I haven't even done this. I'm just going by the things my local newspapers have told me about the West. Regardless of what I believe myself, it would be quite easy for me to tell you what you want to hear when you ask questions like "I would support his freedom of choice and welcome the woman or man into my home, for that is the Canadian way." "How wonderful that women have these freedoms in Canada. I am so glad to come to such a tolerant society." "While we all have the freedom to practise our beliefs in our homes, public life and laws are mainly secular in Canada. We tolerate all religions equally." None of this would stop me from going on welfare, beating up women, or lobbying for Shari'a law once I became a citizen. (I am not saying that that is what Muslim immigrants do btw. I'm just pointing out that this kind of test won't even do what you hope it will.) It's just some bullshit that anyone could make up if they knew the bare minimum about Western culture. Do you think the Khadrs were unaware of what Canadian social norms were in these areas?

This may work better for the 'pride' poll: http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:XOPJFzEbtqIJ:https://www.angusreidforum.com/mediaserver/3/documents/20100630_CanadaDay_EN.pdf+angus+reid+health+care&hl=en&gl=ca&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgM2NTtcK5E_UsnUM-gKE_TkrRVoAOxdLC4sAyiOOqIlX6UIh3U3gm3yVUhV-1l3ZmB16CHL6Y6tlJzUcZCHGFbT9brKEEzY-z_bS-UCBUzvrzX4FQ9eRs_V2TitZpsM38AZ8Fr&sig=AHIEtbTdUgdp-7ca71cdV4ladeG0RJaeEQ (It's a bit fluffy, admittedly.)

Yeah, now that I actually read about the actual poll, the picture seems a little different: This Angus Reid poll, also from this year, shows a majority of Canadians taking pride in the health care system: https://www.angusreidforum.com/mediaserver/3/documents/20100630_CanadaDay_EN.pdf+angus+reid+health+care&hl=en&gl=ca&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgM2NTtcK5E_UsnUM-gKE_TkrRVoAOxdLC4sAyiOOqIlX6UIh3U3gm3yVUhV-1l3ZmB16CHL6Y6tlJzUcZCHGFbT9brKEEzY-z_bS-UCBUzvrzX4FQ9eRs_V2TitZpsM38AZ8Fr&sig=AHIEtbTdUgdp-7ca71cdV4ladeG0RJaeEQ And Smallc is right. Talk to some Americans about how satisfied they are with ER and hospital services.

Try what? I don't know what you're saying here.

I was gonna say: I didn't know Ayn Rand was considered the pinnacle of economic theory these days. We have an example of a free market in health care south of the border (although I'm sure it's not free enough for Mr Young). It is more expensive and inefficient and leaves more of the population without adequate coverage without producing demonstrably better health outcomes. We also had a free market in health care in this country until 1965. Somehow, hardly anyone seems to advocate returning to it. Our system may leave some room for improvement but we should look at models of countries whose systems actually seem to work better in terms of health outcomes for the population. In some cases, a greater level of public involvement may help, e.g. in terms of bulk drug purchasing.

Argus, Saipan, Battletoads: Do you guys even realize how easy it would be to just bullshit and pass a 'test of cultural attitudes'? At least the current test requires some actual factual knowledge about the country.

Argus, you're actually advocating discriminating between immigrants on the basis of religious and cultural beliefs?

Opposition parties have proposed alternative solutions btw: http://www.canada.com/news/pushes+punish+human+smugglers+only/3773218/story.html This Star editorial gives a critical view of the bill: http://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorialopinion/article/900840--playing-politics-with-refugees

Examples have already been given in this thread of the Conservatives trying to bend the Constitution or Parliamentary procedures/conventions. Btw, repatriating the Constitution and creating the Charter in itself was a political risk for the Liberals (that was arguably partly responsible for their subsequent electoral defeat). I'm not sure either that their implementation of official multiculturalism and liberalization of immigration were driven by polls/popularity in the first place. I do believe that their commitment to these things goes a little further than sheer expediency, at least for some Liberals. Mind you, I generally hold the present-day federal Liberal Party in a fair bit of contempt as well.

That doesn't mean we need to like it in every case.

Education in particular. (It's a provincial responsibility but the provinces had to make up for slashed transfers.

Wild Bill: I am too young to remember the NEP first-hand, yes. I've read mixed things about it and I'm not sure it's as one-sided as your post makes it sound but I can actually see how that might have been seen as Central Canada exploiting AB. However, my understanding was that when the programme was initiated, it was because of a joint agreement between Canada and Alberta that Trudeau and Lougheed toasted with champagne, expecting that it would be mutually beneficial. (I've seen the pictures, ha.) From what I remember from Just Watch Me, I also thought that some of the other Western premiers were in support of the NEP? No one actually expected the drop in oil prices in the early 80s, right? Plus, at that time, there was a serious recession in many countries. I'll note that PET had actually reached out to the NDP and offered a full coalition in 1980 so the government would have more representation from the West. I'm not sure what programmes in the Eastern provinces you're referring to in the rest of your post. I do think that e.g. Newfoundland has benefited a great deal from the Hibernia development project. Otherwise, I don't think anyone can seriously still claim that they're being screwed because of things like the Crow Rate or the St Lawrence Seaway.

I never denied the possibility that the Liberals could be bullshitting. (Other major groups have also raised similar concerns about the constitutionality of the proposed bill, however.) However, you and Argus both stated that you find it hard to believe that the Conservative government might cynically put forth unconstitutional legislation while also seeming fairly confident that the Liberals are cynically bullshitting.

See, I'm not sure that 'Liberal-NDP philosophy' is primarily responsible for ON's current economic troubles as they are. The collapse of ON's manufacturing sector was probably an inevitable result of globalization and economic development around the world but it would seem that FTA/NAFTA probably accelerated the process. It was in this context, as well as a continent-wide recession that in Canada was worse than the recent/current one, that Bob Rae took power. While some cuts probably were necessary afterwards, I'm not sure that Harris did that much to improve our economy to make up for all the suffering that was caused - and we were still left with a deficit. In fact, TD Bank economists have stated that ON's business climate has improved under McGuinty - i.e. It is better than it was under Harris/Eves. Now, of course, we have been dealing with another worldwide recession that can certainly not be attributed to any[/i ]Canadian political party. In terms of 'philosophy', however, if anything, neoliberal policies, esp wrt banking, seem to have contributed most towards economic collapse in some of the countries that have suffered the most.

Well spoken, Smallc. It surprises me that people are so willing to believe that the Conservatives would never try to bend the Constitution or Charter to get what they want but also ready to believe that the Liberals would make up some bullshit about the Charter in order to block a bill.

Yeah tbh I'm a little surprised by the level of anger over the HST. It seems like a sensible thing to do instead of collecting separate PST and GST taxes. Every other progressive-leaning person seems to hate it though.

I'm hoping for some sort of Liberal-NDP coalition or minority. Horwath does seem like an improvement on Hampton. And Topaz is right. If the PCs are going to rescind taxes any more, they will have to either cut services or leave a deficit (neither of which they've shown much of a problem with).

(xpost to Argus)

I voted for him twice, largely because I see the alternatives the same way Jack does but also because I do think that despite their faults, the Liberals have made some progress in a number of areas during difficult times. No government in Canada or the US that I know of has attempted to do all the things that McGuinty allegedly promised according to those lists. The PCs certainly won't. (They won't promise to, which may make them more honest or less cynical. However, considering that I fully expect that they will make it harder for me to keep making a living in Ontario if they win, that doesn't make me very eager to vote for them.) The ONDP did not imo run on credible platforms in the last two elections. In provinces where we do see NDP governments, their policies do not strike me as especially different from McGuinty's in the areas of social programmes or the environment. Perhaps their tax policies are a little different.

Ugh. That's "...b ) backing..."

Possible reasons: - To make it look like they are being tough on crime and bait the Opposition into either a) opposing an idea that sounds good to the public (particularly the Con base), who are sick of hearing about queue-jumping phonies, or backing an unconstitutional bill. Classic wedge politics. Why do you only assume cynical ulterior motives on the part of the opposition parties? - They just interpret the Charter differently. - To force civil rights groups and immigration advocates into costly and time-consuming court cases - Hubris - To divert government resources into detention facilities and court cases as part of a 'starve the beast' economic agenda I strongly disagree that any government should use the notwithstanding clause, especially for something like this.

Not sure what you mean. Thinking that a proposed piece of legislation violates the Charter is a good reason to be against it, surely. Why waste time experimenting with potential challenges when you can defeat the bill and hope to come up with a better solution to the human smuggling problem?

Ha, OK, those lists are pretty impressive, I'll grant you. Tbh, I didn't even remember that McGuinty promised most of those things. I don't know if anyone could have accomplished all of that! xpost

Surely Diefenbaker counts as a power shift away from Central Canada in our history? (Will have more to say about the rest of this later on.)