Popeye

Please explain to me what McGuinty did in Caledonia that was SO disgusting that you would place your mark on a ballot for a pedophile to operate provincial governance while you espouse 'morals'. Not only does your comment sound extreme to the nth degree, I have visions of parents and children running away at high speed from what you would consider acceptable representation. Maybe your senses have been damaged by much more than anything McGuinty could ever throw in your direction, but that is no excuse for someone, like yourself, who is so offended by what happened in Caledonia to support more reckless leadership. No? And btw, good ole Bob inhereted a deficit that was never reported to the public by the previous government. He's also a Liberal MP now. No? Haldimand-Norfolk is pretty easy to figure out when it comes to political representation. One could paint a wooden sawhorse blue and put it's name on the ballot and it would win an election. This is conservative country. I've gotta say that your process of elimination when casting a vote on a ballot is disturbing with the eenie, meenie, minee, moe approach. A vote for Hudak ensures that the people of Ontario will save about two bucks per case of beer. At least they'll be able to drink more for less while they sit in the dark and the cold because they can't afford to keep the lights on and the heat running while they walk to work if they have a job to get to.

I think that when the finger pointing is finished and the damage already done, the people of Haldimand County and Six Nations will do what they know how to do best. They will pick themselves and the pieces that remain 'up', dust themselves off and move forward together as they always have over these hundreds of years. In other words, it will remain the same. They get it. They know it. There is no book that can be written by anyone that will correctly and accurately document what happened in Caledonia, Ontario so long as any book written fails to have accurate information directly given from the numerous people named in it. I will suggest that when a book can be written about the on-going land dispute in Caledonia and Six Nations by any author, that it be a book that is not peppered with words written about the author's own personal opinion and speculation for lack of research. THAT will be a book worth purchasing to read. Truth and Reconciliation will NEVER be found in empty promises or demands, let alone threats. Popeye

Actually, "He" got upset when I entered the conversation. I have no problem answering questions, entertaining a challenging and thoughtful question, or answering accordingly. I can also read. What I will NOT do is send others to do my bidding or "buddy up" to cover for any failing that I may or may not have to cover my ass. Capisce?

This comes as no surprise whatsoever. You have no valid point of view backed by fact or truth so it is easier to 'CUT!' and run. How long is your list of ignore now? My best guess would have you and Santa Claus competing for first place regarding who's list is longer in the naughty catagory.

Its interesting to read your post wb. You assume so much. Maybe, one day, Caledonia and Six Nations will find the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. They all deserve it. WB, any chance you would like to argue this post without looking for others to put the stake in the plate before you eat? Unlike you, I do not find this crap 'entertaining' my day-in or my day-out.

Let's try this, the original link from the first post that started this thread. http://www.un.org/esa/socdev/unpfii/en/drip.html Now then, how about we talk about "Canada" removing itself from the tripod of "don't wanna do this" on the UN list and leaving Australia and the United States in their dust?

Go back, reread. Wild Bill request such should happen before commenting. No rights have been removed from anyone. BTW, did you know that the 96% of land mass in Ontario is covered by Treaty?

You Miss, are exactly what I was talking about. I'm not sure why you would think that I hadn't read all 13 pages before I commented, but keep your panties on honey. The topic is "Natives have rights too....". Check the thread, and then my post, and then read the Charter and Constitutional Law applicable to Native rights. Tell me something, do you have a problem with French being the "other" national language of Canada? Do you take issue with those who are French being afforded certain rights within the charter?

It's been a while since I've checked in on this forum, but may as well start commenting right here. On the off chance that anyone hasn't noticed, natives have rights too. Im not sure why this comes as a surprise to some, but it appears to offend the ofactory of some. Read the Charter. Check Constitutional law. And then take a deep breath. Contrary to what some may believe, they do not always live in better conditions than others and often, too often, they and their families live in conditions that i wouldn't leave my dog in quite frankly. So quit with the "they have it better than us" BS. Has anyone ever wondered why there are sections in the Charter specific to the original people when that blessed and heralded document was signed into ownership in "Canada" with the Crown penning a signature? Yes, Natives have rights too. In the moment that any 'Canadian' wants to remove or take them away, then they best be prepared to have their own rights removed as well. How does that sit/fit?

I heard a lady in town explain McHale's welcome back this way: "We have a special place in Caledonia for Gary McHale. It's that little island in the middle of the Grand River. An island unto himself."

Knock yourself out. Just make sure that you let the people you speak with know that you are doing McHale's bidding. That should help you conserve quite a bit of time finding out what you can do and leave you more time to enjoy the river walkways, shops in the town core, the parks and fishing by the dam.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAhaaahaaahaaaa! Ohhh breathe! Hahaaaahaa LOL LOL LOL!!!! Newsflash: Gary McHale did run for office. He lost. Why would you want Gary McHale to get the people in Caledonia arrested? What did they do? It doesn't take much courage to go into Caledonia because nothing is happening and it is a quiet town these days. The truth of the matter is that McHale had a variance to his conditions/restrictions. You do know what a variance is correct? There is difference between what is expected and what actually occured. He may enter parts of Caledonia. That is hardly something to trumpet or be proud of.

Good on you. I meet Haudenosaunee on and off their "assigned" territories as well. Of course I do. The Longhouse is not a sole/soul place found just SW of Caledonia. If you are asking of the Mohawk, there are other assigned reserves particular to what you may be referring to. Have you ever heard of the 'Six Nations of Tyendinaga' or the 'Six Nations of Kanesetake'? I agree with you. Engagement occurs on and off territory. History is not something that is written just yesterday, it is understanding the whole for/of everyone involved and taking the time to listen to hear to garner understanding BEFORE speaking from any perspective. These are misperceptions that you are speaking of regarding native peoples and their history, not misconceptions. There is nothing worse than watching people act out of listening for the sake of listening because nobody ever told them to 'stop!'. Who's racist policies? Race is only an issue for those who do not recognize people as human beings. We all come from and live on the same planet. Anyone who would like to argue that point with me is free to do so in efforts to prove me wrong. Many people have contributed for their part. A few contribute in "formal negotiations" while a cast of thousands contribute informally. Some from Six Nations will tell you that "the Mississaugas were given a place to stay temporarily on Six Nations land and never left". That quote is from a professor at Mohawk College Campus in Brantford, yet the Mississauga are inking the settlement with the Crown to resolve their First Nations land claims...Toronto, Ontario should breathe a collective sigh of relief. These debates and bantering over current day understanding of 'way back when' by individuals (myself included) need to find understanding in the dynamics and difference between THAT time and the here and now for everyone to move forward respectfully and respectively. Nobody is going to go anywhere no matter what. The sooner people accept that the past cannot be undone, the better. I don't say that in measure to belittle anyone, but this is "the new normal". Then you have not set foot in this area of contention since before it became cannon fodder for just about anyone who dared speak of it who actually lived/lives with it. Then you are not the person who posted on many forums relating to Caledonia and Six Nations using the moniker "charterrights" that I have met numerous times in Caledonia and Six Nations. Thank you for clarifying. Which law are you advocating for that would meet with "compliance" by any standard for any person? The last time I checked, being stupid wasn't against any laws of either the Crown or the Haudenosaunee. From what I have witnessed first hand, I wish it was. Wisdom, Love, Respect, Bravery, Honesty, Humility, Truth.

I made an edit to my post that you responded to in your comment. Please review, and post again if it's worth your while. Charter.rights, this isn't about you and me punching each other out on a keyboard for everyone to read on the www.

You are engaged. Good. What are you doing other than spinning your wheels? What "this" am I naive about? Land claims and land disputes are not owned by Six Nations alone. You are not Longhouse. In that realization I am not naive. I have no issue with governance being taken to task to find workable solutions for everyone. Getting heretics and mischief makers out of the way is a very important job for those who don't mind biding their time to allow the system of governance to work effectively to that end and remaining true to that belief system. Changes are needed. I won't argue with you there. Just as I thought. Empty. Nonetheless, I shall call my 'private security' force to ensure that my family sleeps safely. (Not "as if", it is done.) Liar. Your own words show this if people are paying attention and listening to hear instead of listening for the sake of listening. How could you have possibly "interviewed" Elders from Six Nations or been paying attention to this issue which is not soley about "Six Nations" yet choose to believe the Haudensaunee belief structure without ever having set foot on Six Nations Territory in over 4 years?? Six Nations IS "on the ground". It's easy to find too. Drive to Caledonia and make a hard turn. It's about 600 feet up the road from there.

And you are in a panic. Calm down. Nobody said you did, but by your own words below you didn't intervene when the shyte was truly hitting the fan. Which facts? Who's understanding? You do not say, but I'll surmise that you are speaking of aboriginal peoples rights. I'm glad that you found the time to educate yourself on the rights of aboriginal peoples and now find that you have the right to educated everyone else on aboriginal peoples rights. Do you not see how that can be part of the problem and not part of the solution?? It's the ol' "I know better for you". You talked to people? Did you listen? If you did, did you listen to hear or did you listen for the sake of listening? If you listened to anything that was spoken to you, you would know that nothing is more sacred than the truth...all of it...no matter how ugly or unsettling or against that basis of truth. "Peace" is a gift that comes found from within. It is not loosely found in the action or word of any man to prove anything. You prefer the Haudenosaunee version? What is this "According to THEIR Great Law..."??? You either believe it and own it or you don't. I choose that which is true to me, the seven. It is no different than any other belief system. We all have choices. Neither do you. The moral high road is a tough road to climb sometimes and often lonely. No, I'm not a moderator and neither are you. Suggest away. I have no problem should they "intervene". So it is safe for me to say that you have not stepped beyond those rules and guidelines to this point, but you are prepared to push the limit talking to me. What's the matter charter.rights? YES I HAVE MET YOU. More than once. Mostly on Six Nations Territory. Is that a threat?

Good on you for the Haiti benefit tomorrow. If I could hand you the street car fare to get to the benefit I would.

Ummm.....your statement is based in "Hindsight". There is no possible way that you could speak to what the "majority of Caledonians did" unless you found this for your self after speaking with all of everyone in Caledonia. While you were busy sitting back and starting to try and find out what the REAL issue was, others were already busy working quietly and steadily to move forward within hours of the Feb 28 date. What did you find? You do not say. I asked you to keep the personal crap out of it. I choose peace. Is that a "fear-parasitic mind" to you? I choose to acknowledge that the land dispute is an on-going issue in Caledonia and Six Nations. I choose to talk to, and listen to, as many people as possible. That is what garners perspective. It is easy to "advocate for those who have something to offer towards reaching solutions" but it isn't easy to find people who are willing to work toward finding workable solutions for all involved, personal likes/views aside. You know this to be true because everyone does IN FACT matter. Have you read the International Declaration of Human Rights and Freedoms lately? Yes we have and no I'm not.

You need help. And maybe someone to take your keyboard away from time to time.

Calm down already! Take the personal crap out of it and answer me this, what would you have done in their shoes if you were unarmed with the information and knowledge that you now possess? Would you have written the book differently without the knowledge of what you have NOW? Honest question for you charter.rights... Hindsight is ALWAYS 20/20 no matter who is reading through the glass, and "Hindsight" is the last name of more sofa coaches than I can count in both Caledonia and Six Nations. If you are willing to "reserve compassion for those who need it and not those that fabricate their own misery" then I will suggest to you that you miss much in life and your perspective is skewed to a degree. Don't like me if you so choose. It's not my place to convince you. You liked me well enough when you spoke with me 3 and 4 times ago face to face. What happened?

I will suggest to you that if you have information leading to the arrest of the individual(s) responsible for the vandalism to the hydro sub-station in Caledonia that you contact the OPP. There is a $50,000 reward for information leading to the arrest of the individual(s) responsible. If you have information that could potentially close the file for the OPP, I suggest you contact them ASAP and collect your 50K I'd have respected McGuinty if he'd at least had the nads to set foot in this area...it IS McGuinty's 'back yard'. It's also the elephant in the room that he and his federal counterparts refuse to address. Certainly the meaning was completely lost in what Six Nations tried to tell the residents of Caledonia. Their spokespeople (much like those who emerged from Caledonia) were believed to be more self serving than anything. I don't believe that was the intent of any of them. I look at it this way; when leadership is scarce, blind, dumb and mute, something will fill the void eventually. All are guilty in this regards. Terrorism by defintion? Have you read the small print on your home insurance policy lately? I'm talking post 9-11 here... Caledonia and Terrorism? GMAFB! Yes, many many surreal things happened in this town. But if I'm going to subscribe to the 'they are terrorists!' mindset then am I not also subscribing to the ideology that the Crown of Canada in right is supporting terrorism homegrown style? PLEASE STOP already. And not that I'm trying to compete with you here, but we all live with racism every f'n day. We just don't call it out or say it out loud and clear. It's the elephant in the room and we all know it in our 'political correctness' to avoid being persecuted ourselves....racism at it's finest. This is not a lawsuit against Fantino, its a criminal charge brought by a private citizen. I agree with you that it will not go anywhere but for one simple reason; it doesn't serve the public's intrest. McGuinty is mum on the issue as he should be. Law enforcement and government work at arm's length. Neither will discuss any issue before the court so don't hold your breath waiting to hear what they (either of them) have to say in the MSM. As for your comment that Caledonia has "become a regular item in all the national papers" comment; you do realize that the next big issue will surpass this in the media as soon as it rears it's head right? McGuinty has some serious worries for the next election all right...he might win again. Then he will have 4 more years of trying to hide/fix what started in Caledonia and Six Nations on his watch. I'm almost tempted to vote for his party just to watch the fireworks, shuffling, hiding and the 'now you see him, now you won't' workings of his leadership! I have no argument for you on this statement because I think you are right. That is what government does. Bury it. At least we have the Freedom of Information Act, and it works if one has patience and persistance.

The longer everyone or anyone stand firmly pointing a finger at another stating that "it's theirs for the blame" this will simply go on and on. There is no doubt in my mind that residents of Caledonia gave as good as they got - but not better. Have you seen much video footage of what the images look like when the camera was pointed the other way? I have. I have it. It will never meet the internet because it would only serve to make matters worse, not better. There have been well over 100 charges laid against native and non-native alike over this dispute. As I stated earlier, it's called discretion. The OPP have done one helluva job managing this mess. I see no two-tier justice here, and my eyesight is just fine. In the moment that any one person finds that there is no compassion left for any person, perception is lost. Nothing personal charter.rights, but everyone matters...like 'em or not. Let's all work with what we have to work with, not with what we don't have.

I hope this works out for reading. Here goes... From the bottom to the top of what you posted it reads as though the protesters and their once cooler heads do indeed prevail. Do you honestly believe for one single second that the government or OPP were in complete control of what happened in Caledonia?? If you do, then you are far more naive than I surmised. When does the government or police have control over the individual action or effort of anybody in any circumstance? If you have that answer I can put you in touch with at least one police force that would like to purchase a mass quantity of your 'crystal ball' insight. Then your "family" has undoubtedly told you that there have been 3500+ OPP officers from across the whole Province of Ontario who have served time in Caledonia. As an eye witness to just about everything that has happened in this town, I can tell you that the OPP have done one HELL of a job 'keeping the peace' because there is ABSOLUTELY no doubt in my mind that had it not been for the OPP standing shoulder to shoulder 20 across and 6 deep across Argyle St in Caledonia, Ontario on more than one occassion, at least 'one somebody' from either side may have ended up dead. Your family members should be proud. They served the general public extremely well all the way around and they are worth every tax dollar spent on them from what I have personally witnessed. That is called discretion. Should we all demand that the next time an OPP officer (who may) pull us over in a traffic stop give us the ticket listing our infraction(s) to ensure that they do not have the choice to enforce the law regardless of ANY reason? But I do understand what you are getting at/saying...KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid)...lets take the guess work out of it for everyone. Right? How much is your freedom worth? How much of your freedom to make decisions for yourself (for the right or wrong reasons) are you willing to put in the hands of others? It's an all or none question, rhetorical I suppose. McGuinty is a fool. I can't actually believe that you used the words 'McGuinty' and 'smartened' in the same sentence. Gag orders are common place in lawsuit settlements. I don't give a rat's azz how much money Chatwell/Brown got because of a gag order or no gag order, its none of my dammed business. Maybe the Crown was trying to protect potential witnesses who may have been summoned to testify. Maybe the Crown was trying to protect Chatwell/Brown from those who would/could/may undoubtedly find a reason to further persue the couple who are now moving on with their lives. Who cares. It no longer matters the 'why?' any more than it matters the 'why not?'. If people want to protect the McGuinty government from embarrassment all they have to do is vote for them again in the next provincial election. Pretty simple crap that is. Any Canadian who has been following the Caledonia issues in the paper and BELIEVE that the media is telling the TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH need to stop subscribing to their newpaper subscription ASAP. Media stopped reporting 'responsible, reliable' reports a long time ago and not just on the Caledonia/Six Nations issues. Media is only in this for the money and nothing more. You know what they say...sex sells.