Sir Bandelot

I see, it is "so yesterday..."

Well going back to the OP it indicates Poland and Russia, these are WWII events. No thread drift here.

http://www.cdn-friends-icej.ca/antiholo/non2many.html Canadians, sanctimonious defenders of freedom, read it and weep.

The history of Christianity has everything to do with the history of antisemitism. If you read this discussion, my comments came out of criticism that western nations turned their backs on Jewish refugees. Jews had nowhere to go. Many escaped Europe to go to Palestine. I don't feel like going through it all again, as I've made my point here but suffice to say, we are complicit and have not atoned for the crimes of our past. I admit it angers me tremendously that many people do not know what happened, the greatest crime in history, and coverup and it was just a few decades ago.

Yes I know but if you can get the point- we certainly were in WWII.

Ok fine. I will not excuse them or try to defend the indefensible. We live in a world of great hostility. In rare cases, refugees have been tolerated, even when they arrive in large numbers. But when that happens they're usually confined to camps and have minimal rights. More often than not, they are persecuted. That certainly was the case for the Jews, who were rejected unanimously, worldwide. Not to forget what also happened to thousands of Gypsies, Roma and other so called unter-mensch. It's a typical reaction especially from people are not well educated or come from a culture that accepts violence, where tolerance toward others is not held in high regard. Having said that, how can we then excuse the west? Are we not supposed to be enlightened, Christian nations?

It's not as bad as you think. If violence and mayhem occurs, they will just bake cookies

Sorry but you can't read, and I don't talk to clowns.

No problem Dog. I've got my boots on.

It's always that human factor that gets in the way of our ideological arguments, isn't it. Damn humans, idiots, they're screwing things up.

The problem is some data/evidence is largely open to interpretation. In some cases, the data one looks for can be found, and can be shown to say exactly what you want it to say. And that can be done without malice. Data/ evidence is not always a proof. Or as the saying amongst physicists goes, seek and ye shall find...

As a person who has worked in a physics department for almost 30 years I can assure you, this is how science is done as well. And not always with the most noble intentions. err... hmm. A proof is a proof. Or so I was led to believe

"Direct relief", that sounds like a leftist concept to me. Is it just possible that direct relief is not always in the best interests of certain parties? The UN has certainly benefited some groups, by deflecting, by postponing, by dragging things out. Its usefulness really depends on whose problems you're trying to solve.

bjre is like the tank man of this forum. Bravely he stands up against all of you, and never surrenders. I have seen many cowardly dogs insult him for his broken english. But he keeps coming back to speak his mind. Anyone who stands against the herd of cattle and is willing to speak up for what they believe, despite being ridiculed is worthy of praise and gets my support, because they will not give in to political lies.

Yes we've been over that now, and I am satisfied with Bob's response. Although I disagree it is a strictly leftist phenom. Surely there are many leftists who also dislike the UN. At least there is still some hope for Bob. Small, yes, but non-zero...

Good. Good.

No, it is not ridiculous. It is a view that can be defended. I know it is a long complex story, one that can entangle us in arguments for years. But you see, there's only a few basic differences in how we see things. I refuse to get into the muck that tries to fix blame on either Jews or Palestinians, as the reason a priori. Palestinians are reactionary. They responded to a perceived invasion of what they considered their territory. Most likely that any nation would respond in a similar manner, under similar circumstances. Can anyone disagree with that? Is there another country that would make room or willing annex part of their land for millions of refugees to take permanent residence? Let alone, the Jews... Jews had no where to go so it is not even a question in my mind. They were refused even in lands where they had lived for generations, for centuries. Places like Romania, Bulgaria, even in Belgium and the Netherlands. After much deliberation in parliament Canada accepted one child refugee, I understand. Just one! And we all know what happened on the S.S. St Louis. Simon Weisenthal org still has a lot of work to do Bob, why are you wasting time bothering us here? The real criminals are the ones who are vetted by the establishment. It is not an anti-establishment rant, it is based on historical fact. Shame on you for implying it were not the case! If you don't know about history, why do you come here?

I didn't think that you support it Bob. In fact I knew you wouldn't. You are rather presumptuous sometimes it seems. I wanted to see how you respond to the notion that Israel is a loyal member, while you tell us that Canada should leave the UN. Pot, meet kettle

I've answered the questions and noticed no one responds. Teh silence roars... (sic)

Really? Israel is a member, as you know. the Mission of Israel supports the purposes and principles of the UN, namely, as the UN charter eloquently states, to reaffirm faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person, in the equal rights of men and women and of nations large and small. As such, the Mission of Israel actively engages at the United Nations on a wide range of security, human rights, humanitarian, social and economic development, and environment related issues. http://israel-un.mfa.gov.il/ How do you respond to this?

No I am not. Although, I can't open your second link. But if I gather what you're saying, I DO NOT equate them. In fact that is the point I made when I stepped into this thread (with rubber boots on, I assure you...) Others are trying to say that they are equivalent. In fact the OP implies this. I said they are not, and I refuted it. I said the blame lies entirely with the west. Proved it even. Also showed how the attitude that one does not own eternal rights to their ancestral land, as someone else indicated should be fail and square for Poles, Russians, Germans, or Palestinians must then also be right for the Jews. Try that one on your Matzo.

snarf...

I had a similar misfortune on a recent business trip. As I was returning from Toronto to Kingston by train, on Sunday evening my work completed early. I made an inquiry to see if I could get an earlier train, rather than the one I was booked on which was around 9pm. I went up to the ticket counter and spoke to a person, showed them my ticket and asked if I could leave on the 5pm train. Yes certainly, I was told, there was a spot. Ticket printed out, old ticket taken away. Now if you know about their crappy rules for round-trips, you cannot book the coach class going in both drections. One direction has to be executive class. You HAVE TO pay the extra amount. And as it happened, my return ticket was in the executive class. So I get on the train, take my seat in the executive class. Around Cobourg someone comes up to my seat, claiming tey have a ticket for it. One of the VIA staff asks to see my ticket, and declares it was for Monday, not Sunday! I was rather surprised. I explained to them what happened at the ticket counter. THey try to make some phone calls, asking me to stand in the area between cars. Because all other seats are taken in executive. They can't get through to anyone to resolve the problem. After 30 minutes I start making jokes like, "maybe you can just get me a chair here, so I can at least sit down?" And the person says, "This is not funny, sir." After another ten minutes or so I say to them, "Look, I don't need executive, I just want a seat somewhere so can I possibly go to the coach area (where dozens of seats were empty) and sit down there, while you try to resolve this problem?" I'm standing in the baggage area with my briefcase and luggage, for almost an hour,for crying out loud. They agree and I go find a seat. When I arrived at my station I went to the ticket counter. They knew what happened by then. THey gave my a $20 discount on my ticket, since I didn't sit in executive class. How nice

It is true. It is historical fact that these things happened, and the points you raised to do not nullify those facts. What's become apparent now in this thread is that there are two divergent arguments. On the one hand I raised the point, to compare the Jewish/ Palestinian conflict with the invasions of Poland and Russia during WWII or thereabouts is not valid, as Palestinians were not the initial aggressors. This was refuted with claims that Palestinian arabs were the aggressors, that Jews were defending their sovereignty. When I pointed out that the UN partitioned the land to give the Jews an official protected homeland, recognized by western nations it was refuted by saying the Jews took it by their own hand. Do you people speaky from both sides of mouthy? It seems so. I prefer to just state the facts. Since I am not a Jew or an Arab, I have no vested interests to protect or defend either of them. My position in fact also criticizes Canada as well, in fact the whole of the western world was complicit in the holocaust so I sympathize with people who are bound to be a bit 'touchy' in regards to the history of that region. In the end as always, I defer to the rights of the smallest person, the ones who are caught up in the conflict of the greater powers. Today Obama et al are just as manipulative of that region for their own interests, as the British or the UN were when this situation was created. That is the sad condition of affairs and it will continue forever. What makes it continue are people with one-track minds who speak half truths to try and convince themselves and pledge allegiance to evil. For the record I will say, in my opinion the west is wholly responsible right from day one, some two thousand years ago. The blame rests on our shoulders as an empire, right up to today right up to now, even with people like DogOnPorch who seek to make it a nazi problem. That is why the Jews should never depend on us.

They cannot negotiate due to longstanding hatred and resentment. Peaceful democratic solutions are only possible when there is a willingness to cooperate. It might be best to rule the entire region as in places like former Yugoslavia, as in former Iraq. ie. by oppressive dictatorship. And that is what Israel is trying to do, in my opinion.