August1991

G&M Taber PM PM could have easily said that we won't have a spring election. The fact that he has not said that makes it clear that we will. He knows that his credibility is on the line. He can't play games anymore. We will have a spring election.

Cool! You don't think existing members have a say? You've been conned, I think. The foreigners may be better than we Canadians, no? (Canada is a SMUG country.) Years ago, Canada was a 'good' country. Canadian passports meant the holder was an honest person who paid debts. If you had a Canadian passport, it was better than a platinum American Express credit card because it meant you were a CANADIAN.Those days are gone. A Canadian passport is now suspect, like an ordinary Visa credit card. The term abroad now is "plastic Canadian". Ever heard that one Sully?

There is a "morality", I believe. Fighting endlessly about hectares/acres is silly. There are no 'principles' to die for except "I have no principles other than my children". What is best for them? What will be best for my grandchildren? And why do I exist anyway if my grandchildren won't live? Do I really believe "I" will "exist" in 5000 years? The morality is having my life now; and the ensurance that others in the future will enjoy what I have.

Are you whacko? Governing bodies have nothing to do with this? True, I am me. But how to prove that? Do you have a Gold Visa? How did you get it?We old Canadians are innocent. Around the world, we have a reputation of paying debts, being honest, telling the truth. In a case of dispute, we politiely accepted perfidy, turned a cheek, and believed, "Life is More Important than this Minor Loss." Not now. The Canadian Passport abroad has no longer the same weight. We are all suspect.

Sully, does your morality require more thought? No? The bombers over Berlin? Dresden? Hiroshima?

For Geezus sake, as my Newfie uncle would say, who decided that? NOT the Canadian government. There is ample info on the Internet forewarning Immigrants about this.Two points: 1) Canadians take rules, regulations, crazy laws for granted. (eg. booze can't be sold in certain stores or at certain times. To move a light fixture legally, you need a "qualified" electrician) 2) Most of the rules are designed to ensure Tom has a good salary because Dick, the immigrant, has to jump through hoops to become an electrician. Harry, the homeowner, is upset to pay Tom's wage so he hires Dick (under the table) and gets better service. The end result is that Canada (or rather North America) is a good place to live. The government has crazy laws, and left-wing intellectual union types invent crazy rules, but ordinary, smart people can manage well a way around all this nonsense.

They will have to. How to get there. Why not compare Israelis/Palestinians to Mohawk/Quebecois? What's the dif? Radical, extreme. But young American pilots died in WW II for something they believed in. Islam? "Thou shalt not steal" comes from the Old Testament. Hamas does not use antiquated terminology. The "civilized, peaceful, Venusian" Europeans "did" the Holocaust. Not Muslims, (and not Bush Americans, need I add.) True.So, how can Israelis show Palestinians that they will NEVER succeed (and Palestinians shouldn't waste time trying)? Or, how can Israelis make it possible for everyone to win?

Sully, I'll answer your post in another thread. This is not because I dislike this thread but because its name "Rantisi Killed" is misleading. The issue is much more serious.

The Devil you don't know is better than the Devil you do?

I have no doubt that the CIA would rely on locally produced bureaucratic data to draw conclusions about world Internet use and then publish this data on the Internet. A smart Chinese guy thinking about immigrating to Canada is far ahead of any American bureaucrat. (I wonder if what the Chinese guy does even registers with the bureaucrat.) d4d, who told all the other pilots to land on the morning of 11 September? (Hint: It wasn't the US government.)

I've wondered about this question alot. The "Bible" claims the Israelis lived there - even the West Bank - and then the Israelis were dispersed and lost the land. Later, Israelis decide to return and "claim" their land. WTF? Some "book", apparently written 5000 years ago, states that your ancestors used to live in some place. You go there and buy land. Or you "force" people to leave. Then, other people get involved and eventually we have the proverbial childish squabble. "I said, he said". "Mine, is not." "Here first, not true." One side says: "We are going to get our land back even if we have to push them into the sea." The other side says: "This is our land. If some people want it, we will kill them." What's the solution? I liked what Anwar Sadat did. He said, "Let's not fight. Right or wrong, let's accept the situation." IOW, if we accept to lose this argument now, our children will have much, much more than they will ever have if we continue this argument and we eventually, maybe, will win this argument. Whose land is it? How to organize this? What about Jerusalem? Very good point d4d (sorry for any plagiarism). So, I started a new thread. (Imitation is the sincerest flattery.)

WTF? China? What planet are you living on? If they don't, then they've got a truly steep learning curve when they get to Canada and apply for those high-paying professional jobs...Sorry, d4d, those "furreners" are not as dumb or backward as you seem to believe. Of course they have access to the Internet. At least, those immigrants that have the ambition to apply and receive legitimately on their own an immigrant visa to Canada. And once here, they legitimately complain about all the absurd labour market regulations we have.

Good point.There has been some suggestion that the government should provide only "catastrophic health insurance". Not to change the subject but there are a few other variables ignored in this thread. 1) Unhealthy taxes. We do that now with cigarette taxes/regulations. 2) Women use health service much more than men. 3) Employees in Canada's health sector are entirely unionized or "associationized".

That's plain wrong.Immigrants are told that in most cases, they will have to have qualifications recognized in Canada. Immigration Canada Web Site It seems to me that this thread implies, in a patronizing tone, that starry-eyed immigrants come to the New Land by boat. Have these so-called professionals never heard of the Internet? Don't they get involved in discussion forums such as this one? (I would before immigrating to a new country.) Canada is a highly regulated society in which unions (with government support) create many barriers in the labour markets. Immigrants are rightly upset by this.

Here's a link to a press release with all the stats. If I understand properly, the sample size was some 2000 and the survey was done over a three week period ending 19 April. Environics Poll

I heard Williams in interview today saying that Watergate took 2 1/2 years and someone (Dean) to change sides to unravel. The PAC has had only 2 1/2 months. In fact, it was the tapes that did Nixon in. Without them, he would have kept support in the Senate and survived impeachment. If there's any lesson in this, it's to commit nothing to tape or paper and shred anything questionable. I would be surprised if anyone finds any gun, smoking or not. This gang has tossed them all in the Ottawa River. The Ontario Tories lasted for some 40 years. Maybe this crew will too.

I'm astonished that you can place the Liberals anywhere. I thought the secret of the Liberals' enduring success was that they had no fixed position on anything.

Willy, I largely agree with your post although I'm no expert on health care. It seems to me that if the government offers health insurance, then it will always pay the costs.Consider government auto insurance. Nobody suggests that the government should also run car repair garages - even in distant, small towns. These proposals make sense but I wonder if any single institution should plan or organize health care. It implies "State Planning Committee". I recently visited someone in a hospital in Montreal. I was struck by the ancient computer "system". Various portions of the hospital were undergoing renovations but the work sites seemed "abandoned". I was reminded of a centrally-planned economy where bureaucrats make arbitrary decisions. So, so, true but it's even worse. Without a price, all the "internal" prices don't work either. Hospital administrators have no way of knowing how to organize their operation. I suspect that many use American practices as a benchmark and then fudge around it. BD, we have all of that now. The second tier is the US. It is one reason that our Canadian health system has survived as long as it has - the US offers an escape route for many people. The general well-being, happiness, standard of living are assets to Canada. And we are a successful country precisely because we let profit-maximizers provide for us.BD, is "profit" a dirty word? Is it bad to maximize profits? Because underneath it, "profit" is simply a numerical test to ensure that a benefit provided is of greater value than the cost of producing that benefit.

True, we have a net gain.But emigration is about one-third of immigration (which, I believe, is much higher than Australia and the US). I suspect many of the emigrants are recent immigrants and Canada, in effect, offers a way to immigrate to the US. It is NOT the government that is practicing this form of discrimination. It is the professional associations and unions that make it difficult for foreigners to become members and forbid employers from hiring non-members.d4d, you are advocating the "right to work" in the sense that you believe employers should be free to hire whoever they feel is competent. I agree.

Klein: Would Lévesque have been more elegant (?), and brutal (?)

Willy, everything you say, applies in the US also. So, what is the best way to deal with these problems? The Canadian way seems good, no?

MapleSyrup, thank you for starting the Health thread. But IMV, the Link in this thread is pointless. Being PM, and getting seats in the Federal House of Commons, is a regional game. You have to do the numbers province by province. The BNA Act was designed, with reason, that way. That's, wonderfully, Canada. Ontario maybe deserves its own regional breakdown. North of Sudbury-North Bay. Ottawa South East. London South west. Toronto. For this election, by and large, you wind up with Liberal/Tory minority depending on how you decide Ontario.

These Tory TV clips are now out here: Tory Clips They are zipped so you have to save, extract and then watch with a player. Not user friendly - but that doesn't matter because they don't aim for Internet people. There are two English clips and one French clip. The first English one is really good (IMV) but the French one is amazing. When I first heard on CBC Radio a few days ago that the Tory slogan was "Demand Better", I thought "how dumb". Canadians never demand. We ask politely. Why not "Expect Better"? (And that's as dumb as "Demand Better".) The first clip puts the slogan in perspective. This is the Canadian in New York saying politely "I'm Canadian." The French clip? "En avez-vous assez?" and "C'est assez." Wow! They could have gone further and said "Ça suffit" or even better, "Minute papillon". Brilliant, with an English accent that just gets it. My old Liberal Newfie aunt is going to think Stephen Harper is the nephew she never had.

I like that one BD. Blame the Cons for the collapse of socialized medicine. But it is inherently unsustainable. And I agree that for now it's a question of funding. We spend about 8% of GDP on health whereas the Americans spend about 12%. Of course, they're richer so they can afford to spend more on luxuries like health. (BTW, the rich spend proportionally more of their income on health than the poor. Health services are like airline tickets.) A GP is in the private sector. What's wrong with privately provided services paid for publicly? Our military works that way. (Dare I say it? That's how the government buys flags for post offices.)There are more fundamental points in my view: The demand for health services is much larger than the supply for the simple reason that health services are free. This is unsustainable. The only reason our health system has been sustained is because we have a two-tier system - our second tier is the US. The wealthy in Canada go to the US and pay for medical services. They avoid all these waiting lines and so on. (This explains in part why health is a bigger portion of US GDP. The US exports health services to foreigners.) Do you believe that Canadian citizen hockey players use their health cards as you and I do? Do you think that Paul Desmarais even has a Quebec health card? Black Dog, do you really believe that PM PM and his family go through the same hassles as you and I do when going to a doctor? (PM PM is over 65 and I'm sure he sees a doctor often.) IMV, state funding of health services is critical to a civilized society; and state funding is the best way to organize them. But how? It's the insurance scheme that should be State organized. And that's it, that's all. IOW, I think the federal government should pay each Canadian's health insurance premium using money collected from all Canadians. The government should get out completely from health except to say to Canadians, "You're covered. We Canadians pay premiums the Canadian way. That's Canada. To be Canadian, it means that we share the risk." Last Point. While Canadians say health is an important electoral issue, I suspect that it's not. When Canadians say "health system", they mean many things ranging from "I'm not American" through "We need a good government" to "I'm afraid of dying". Eyes glaze over with the nitty-gritty.

The market for oranges.Everday, millions of people "vote" in an "election" about whether to have oranges or not, and others "vote" about whether to produce them or not. This model works very well. It's the best form of "democracy".