charter.rights

No. I point out the truth and fact and you interpret that to be condescending because it interferes with your sanctimonious points of view. If you could get over yourself BEFORE you reply you might find an education in fact and truth.

Natives are permitted to sell fish for for profit off reserve. That was decided in a SCoC case where it was determined that earning a moderate income from a resource was consistent with their aboriginal right to hunt and fish and provide for the community. The sale of tobacco currently is supposed to be limited to on-reserve. We do know there are non-native vendors reselling native brand cartons off the reserve as well. This is clearly illegal. However, since the fishing case allows natives to earn a moderate income from the sale of the fish, it would stand to reason that doing the same with tobacco products would be covered under the same right. While the government claims there is a health issue at stake, the reality is this is all about the loss of revenue the government suffers. Native tobacco, is unadulterated free from the ammonia used to enhance the nicotine and other chemicals and pesticides super dosing the commercial brands. That isn't to make an argument for smoking, but that if one does smoke - a legal activity in Canada - native brands are likely less harmful than commercial brands. So it is about taxes that puts a whopping $80 per carton on top of the actual cost of about $4.00. Losing that revenue and seeing that natives are profiting and prospering from the tobacco trade is an irritant. It is not illegal, nor is it immoral to profit on something the government normally gouges us over.

"Justice" my friend is "equity before the law" not necessarily equality before the law. There is no doubt that justice will prevail but not until equity is achieved.

See mad_michael. The trolls come out even in a discussion about their behavior.

No. But it means that we have to revisit every legal document and treaty that proves how we came in control of the land. We had no right to it then, except by the graciousness of native people allowing us to live among them, and today we must prove that land transferred legitimately from them to us. The problem is that the legal documents favour them -even to the degree that we have entrenched the Royal Proclamation 1763 and native land rights into the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. The RC1763 basically is the founding document for our existence here, and outlines at that time where all "Indian Lands" were to remain separate from colonies. Unless we can prove there was a cede we are snooker, legally. The only recourse as we have seen is to try to negotiate a better deal for ourselves but starting at a deficit it is pretty difficult to predict success. BTW Natives ARE supporting us. Only we have yet to pay them what we agreed to for using the land and resources. I have no doubt that justice will prevail, someday and it seems that day is getting closer every minute.

I have proven those figures on a number of occasions. You must have slept through the class. The $1600 comes from the INAC list of transfers cited before. INAC eats up about $3-4 billion in ministry administration costs. Then deduct from that the private non-native contractors hired to deliver many of the programs, and the cost of band administration that is used to track the money through mounds of paperwork. What it boils down to is that using Six Nations as an example, one of the largest reserves in Canada, they only receive about $1600 per capita. Social services also funded through those transfers that INAC has cited in their document comes in at 10% of the mainstream while at the same time suffering from about 40% more in social issues. If we want to help children, we must help their parents and their communities by funding social service agencies, such as Children's Aide on reserve, or family services at a rate that will have some effect. Underfunding has only exacerbated the problem and placed a greater burden on neigbouring communities and larges urban centres where they too can't handle the extra load without additional funding. Since only 43% of natives live on reserve, the remaining 57% are also paying taxes, so it is misleading to suggest that "Canadian non-Indian taxpayers hand over $450 million per year to care for 8000 Indian kids..." Native people contribute their share as well. As to gangs and child neglect I suggest that you tackle the entire issue of poverty because the same kinds of things are prevalent in our cities and towns as well. The common denominator is poverty and even with urban funding sources it does not eradicate the entire problem. However, providing proper housing, safe drinking water and family support is a great start to recovery. I would suggest that you worry less about taxes and worry more about the children affected by government induced poverty. Without proper funding a band council cannot turn a sows ear into a silk purse. They are not to blame. We are for letting our government continue on with assimilation and subjugation of native people and then blaming them fro our choices. Fact Sheet - The Reality for First Nations in Canada

No Melanie. I'm just following the rhetoric that some try to put out to justify our paternalistic treatment of aboriginal children. They can't stand the truth so they attempt to change the subject in hopes of winning one.....legally they are in dead water.

Wrong again Sgt. Bucko.... The RCMP and the CRA have said that it is perfectly legal for non-natives to purchase cigarettes on reserve if it is for their personal use. They essentially take the position that one carton or bag constitutes"personal use". BTW you can cite all the legislation you want. It still doesn't diminish the fact that natives have a Charter right to sell and trade in tobacco....and I think if it ever did get to court....if the federal government ever followed through with taking natives to court, the Supreme Court would rule that that means earning a reasonable income from it as well. It is like the fishery or timber harvesting rights. As long as it is not for corporate profits, selling small amounts is reasonable and justified as their aboriginal right.

It is best to leave them alone and not respond. There are far too many in the candy store trying to get a hand in it already.

Perfectly legal if you were on a reserve, or in a designated smoke shop. Remember, First Nations are not required to collect taxes from anyone when selling on a reserve.

That was a waste of time. None of the legislation applies to First Nations, whose aboriginal right to manufacture and trade in tobacco is protected under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. And apart from the RCMP piracy that takes place along major highways it is all a myth and a charade used to try to bully natives into complying. CRA tries the same tactics but never succeeds in gaining convictions because they eventually drop the charges too. But alas, this has been going on for 20 years and still...no native convictions...You don't suppose that the government knows that aboriginal right trumps the law..you know that law that is inconsistent with the Charter is struck....and that is why all the charges get dropped. In 20 years I say....no native convictions. Why would YOU think that is......? And yet....There are more tobacco sales today than 20 years ago and $millions each month in revenues for First Nations. That's because it isn't illegal and natives have no obligation to collect excise taxes, or duty on products they sell and exchange with other First Nations. That would also be known as a "colour of right" under the law. I would suggest you get real. This tough guy routine is getting tiresome and you my friend are least of all on the higher moral ground. But being a pretender, I can see the resemblance to the RCMP tactics and understand why you think that bully and not complying with the law is the way to go.... I mean if an native has his day in court and is found not guilty, how will it make all the government thugs really look like?

There is no "smuggling" going on. Tobacco trade between First Nations is a right protected by the Charter. The production of cigarettes for sale is not illegal either, nor is the sale of those products without taking tax. Many First Nations have laws that prohibit First Nation members from paying tax or charging tax when dealing with the public on their territories. The idea of "smuggling" is a myth perpetrated by the federal government and their gestapo the RCMP, because they have lost tax revenue to local ma and pop variety stores on reserve. Instead of stopping Canadians who shop there at the border and demanding those who purchase pay the taxes, they prefer to vilify First Nations people and spread lies about their operations. What is interesting is that the RCMP have stopped a number of vehicles and confiscated their shipments. Yet after stealing their goods, they quickly drop the charges. There has not been a conviction of a First Nation person for "smuggling" tobacco since it would never hold up in court. Yet they submit all kinds of myths and propaganda about native cigarettes being illegal, or harmful or that gangs are behind the production. Obviously you have been taken in hook line and sinker.

Absolutely. So when the Government of Canada pays Six Nations the $1 trillion in their trust in full, and stops imposing a $120 million excise on Grand River Enterprises, leaves the tobacco trade alone and stops stealing cargo and vehicles, then you will see just how self-sufficient (and powerful) Six Nations will become. Once other First Nations recognize the power in all of that I'm sure they'll have no trouble following alone....although some First Nations do consider themselves Canadian....so that is a bit of a wrinkle. You do realize that self-sufficiency is the basis for all autonomy, right? Perhaps Canada can then get off the use of First Nations land, stop from stealing resources our Courts say we have no right to, and start looking for oil and uranium (that kill ducks) in Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal. That would certainly be a first step in getting us off of theft as a basis for a country, now wouldn't it.....It might even comply with our laws, rather than ignoring the law because our money is more important than human rights.

If you could get something for less than 10% of the actual cost would you turn it down? The government is quite aware that as natives gain professional titles, education and understanding that what they have been told all these years is a lie, there is more resistance to the status quo. Paying 10% and being able to steal land is more attractive for the government than having to support a small minority of native people on reserve at 10% of the going rate. I realize that you don't understand how our government could do such thing but maybe you should talk to natives as I have done instead of playing make-believe with people's lives. Unless you change your perceptions, you will remain part of the bigger problem with your paternalistic attitudes. You obviously don't want natives to have equality with you and would prefer the status quo...? Otherwise equality cannot be realized without first realizing equity as the basis of all equality.

Underfunding essential services meets the UN definition of genocide. It is design to keep natives impoverished.

It would have been far more productive IMO, if you had warned the usual suspects that trolled and baited DM from the beginning. While there may have been more intelligent ways of addressing this issue seriously, it doesn't take long for it to fall apart once the non-contibutors got involved. It is clear what their intent was and it was not to discuss this properly.

It would have been far more productive IMO, if you had warned the usual suspects that trolled and baited DM from the beginning. While there may have been more intelligent ways of addressing this issue seriously, it doesn't take long for it to fall apart once the non-contibutors got involved. It is clear what their intent was and it was not to discuss this properly.

I never said that anyone owes me anything. I said WE owe THEM our existence. Get over yourself or get a moderator's position pauper.

Coming from a racist troll like you, should I consider that a compliment?

Maybe a club will get it through you Neanderthal head. ALL taxes are collected by companies, including the ones you work for, the ones you buy from and the ones you get your vacuum fixed at collect taxes on behalf of the government and add that to the total price we pay for goods and services. It doesn't matter whether it is shown or not, it is part of the total price we pay. Taxes don't belong to any of us and are used to redistribute the wealth while the government takes their costs for running the scheme. As have provinces those who put more into the tax system than others get all their needs met through the tax system, equally. That's what transfer payments are for. And since Six Nations puts more tax into the system than they receive back they should at least have their needs met, like clean safe water, like full funding of social, education and health services, like roads and infrastructure etc. BUT being underfunded by 10% of the mainstream it is evident that the federal government is deliberately imposing poverty on Six Nations. I pegged you as a racist along time ago. I can't be a racist unless I hated myself, Dopey. BTW How's Snow White?

What an ignorant racist POV. But thanks! It tells me where you are coming from......Just above an IQ of about 60.... BTW I really like your new helmet and Barney lunchbox. It matches your eyes darling.

Get a life, Ophelia. You have way too much time on your hands.

Born a hick, always a hick - no matter where you go you carry that hick mentality with you. Perhaps you should learn to stand on your own "two" feet first. If not for resources that we steal from First Nations Territories, and without their agreement to develop the towns and cities sitting on their land, we would be no where. But I do see that is where you are already so no sense changing the status quo.

That doesn't mean a hill of beans. There were Crown patents issued all over the place. They were still illegal because they did not pass through a "meeting of the people" to have them agree first. According to the Haldimand Proclamation, not meeting the community and getting their agreement first negates any transaction. You are still wrong. It certainly is well documented. You have to read "documents" first before you can make that evaluation. Doing lazy Google searches doesn't count. The Chiefs support exactly what I have been stating. Brant was a Pine Tree Chief and if you read further down the article where is says "The following are the names of the principle chiefs in the Six Nations." you won't find Brant or his Mohawk name Thayendinaga, on the list. I guess that is what the Royaner meant. If he isn't on that list then he couldn't possibly be a condoled Chief. No one but a condoled chief can speak on behalf of the Confederacy. You'll also find that no one in the history of Six Nations or the Confederacy that Brant was raised to be a principle Chief, since the names of Royaner are fixed and hereditary. If Brant was codoled as a Royaner, he would have been given a hereditary name as it gets changed until he dies. Alas his name is Thayendinaga....no chief.

Hello again child. Between the taxes that First Nations people off reserve pay, those with industries that pay taxes and the trusts that the government holds on behalf of First Nations, the net is they pay 10 times more in taxes per capita than they receive back in federal transfers. And if you include royalties that should have been paid on resources that we taken from their lands illegally then it turns out, they are paying more than us and contributing more to the tax base than us. I realize this angers you since it bursts the little racist bubble you have built for yourself, but you know what? You had to grow up sometime.....