Wild Bill

You've put your finger on it, BB! Interesting that the discussion got so far before anyone even brought up the concept of "honour"! The key point is that you yourself would know what you've done. That should be enough reason not to do such a thing! How close we are to the jungle...

Actually, here in Ontario it's worse! You can lose mineral rights retroactively if the Ministry of Resources becomes cosy with a business. Near my part of Southern Ontario there used to be many commercial gas wells. For the most part, they were dotted all over farm country, particularly in the Haldimand-Norfolk area. As long ago as the 1930's many of these wells were deemed no longer commercially profitable. The companies began a process of capping them but often they simply gave them to the farmer who owned the land. Many, many rural homes have been using this energy for decades. The gas volumes may have been too low for a commercial operation but more than enough for just a farm or two. This was in the Hamilton Spectator some weeks ago: http://www.thespec.com/article/699481 January 07, 2010 THE CANADIAN PRESS The Canadian Press, 2009 SOUTHWEST MIDDLESEX, Ont. - For decades, the Murray family of southern Ontario has lived on a rare luxury - they've heated their household for free. But a government order is now demanding that the couple in their 70s shut down a 1931 natural gas well on their property, and the two will have to cough up tens of thousands of dollars to cap the historic well. "We got something we're not paying for so there's no money generated and so they want to close it," said Hector Murray, 73, wearily shrugging off the three-year battle, as he resigned himself to the loss. "It's as if I've committed a crime and this is the punishment." In this case, according to Murray, the crime is free fuel. For some years now, rural residents in that area have been aware of a strange new policy from the Ministry. A farmer will receive a letter asking him to help with Ministry records by informing them of any unregistered gas wells on their property. The implication is that they are trying to make their maps more accurate, since so many wells date back perhaps even before the creation of the Ministry! Most farmers know by now that they would be very foolish to comply! If they do, what will happen is that the Ministry will start a process to shut their well down! There will be excuses, of course. The usual is matters of safety, which is a red herring. Farmers are well aware of how to handle these wells and every town has its own local licenced gas drilling and well servicing operations. Besides, during all these years no one has seen newspaper reports of hundreds of cows being blown into orbit! At the same time, a commercial gas company will be phoning up offering to be your new source of supply, at their current rates, of course! When pressed, the Ministry will quote technical standards for wells that only apply to commercial operations. The level of complexity (and cost!) of the equipment involved is ridiculous and unnecessary for a tiny private well supplying a house or two. The Ministry's answer is "Wells are wells! Do as you're told!" And "Do as you're told!" is actually the attitude commonly reported by farmers caught up in this mess! It's difficult for these rural residents. Long ago riding boundaries began to be redrawn to split up rural acres and merge them into larger urban populations. This sounds like mere efficiency but the real reason is to dilute rural political power. Rural areas have some very different needs and concerns that can conflict with pleasing urban populations. Re-drawing the riding boundaries has meant that there is rarely a large rural voting bloc anymore. You have a few farmer votes lost in a sea of town residents. We've yet to see the end of this process but one thing's for sure. Few farmers are telling the Ministry about any old gas wells!

Harris' biggest failure? I'm confused! The nuclear energy debacle had been going strong since it began in the early 70's. At that time Harris would still have been a golf caddy, just getting out of high school. What's Harris got to do with it? I might agree that he could have tried to fix it but what other premier has done anything either?

I disagree. It might happen! I think some folks are missing the real point. It doesn't matter if the LCBO is profitable or not or whether going private might make it more efficient or provide better service. The government of Ontario really couldn't care less! They might care about such things if it were operating at a loss, of course. Selling it would stop the drain on the public purse. No, the real issue is that selling it into private hands would give McGuinty's government a BIG chunk of money all at once! That money could be used to take a significant bite out of the provincial deficit! Or it could be used to bribe us all come next election. Or both! Whatever, it must be very tempting for Dalton right now!

Not quite! http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/story.html?id=17f52755-7ede-45a5-8b2f-6a8b7d004957&k=46670 "In the 1960s, Newfoundland began talks with Hydro-Quebec to sell power from Churchill Falls, because Quebec would not allow Newfoundland to transmit the power through Quebec to other markets. Quebec still gets power today at bargain-basement prices from Churchill Falls, and has a legally binding contract to do so for a total of 65 years, until 2041. That contract was initially designed to last only 40 years, from 1976 (the year Churchill Falls power came onstream), to 2016. According to the new study, a letter of intent, or draft contract, signed between Hydro-Quebec and CLFCo in 1966 gave each side the option of renewing the contract - under mutually agreeable terms and fresh negotiations - upon its expiry in 2016. By 1968, however, after years of negotiating under such terms, Hydro-Quebec suddenly altered its demands, only months before the final deal was signed. It wanted an automatic renewal of the contract, without negotiations, for another 25 years starting in 2016. And it wanted a guaranteed price even lower than the original price paid before the renewal. "That's like me asking you, 'Why don't you agree to sell me your product at a lower price than prevails today, starting 50 years from now and continuing up to 75 years from now," Feehan said. "It's so incredible, you wonder how anyone could have conceived it." " So your model is not quite accurate. What would you say about an American company making a deal for a gold mine in a third world country that did not have the resources to mine it themselves? Let's suppose that this deal gave the country an absurdly low price for the gold, like $10 per ounce. Let's further suppose that America was able to get a 25 year deal extended for another 25 years, for $5 per ounce! "In a speech in 1996, former Newfoundland premier Brian Tobin estimated that Hydro-Quebec received windfall profits of $1.4 million a day from redistributing Churchill Falls power. He said Newfoundland and Labrador, the resource owner, received only $45,000 a day." You argue like a skinflint lawyer, sir! Quebec's deal may have been perfectly legal but nobody likes a skunk at a picnic.

The bad feeling has little or nothing to do with the validity of the land claims. It comes from the SN protesters tactics, not their justifications. Knocking out the electricity didn't inconvenience anyone at Queens Park. Virtually ALL of the protest tactics hurt the citizens of the town! In effect, they were used as cannon fodder. I could have respected the protesters more if even ONE ATV had roared through McGUINTY'S back yard one night! As I've said many times, the SN protesters explanation seemed to be "Sorry for punching you in the face but hey, don't blame me! Your governments MADE me do it! After you wipe the blood from your nose you really should be joining me on my side of the protest line!" Targeting innocents is simple terrorism, by definition. Revenge should be targeted specifically at the individuals who have wronged you. If someone punches you in the face it is illogical to think you should punch back at anyone of the same race. You should punch the specific individual who hit you first! Frankly, I find the SN protest tactics to be racist in themselves. Actions define you. It doesn't matter if you are a member of a minority group yourself. The most racist man I ever met was a Hindu. Back to Fantino, I seriously doubt if this lawsuit will go anywhere. There will be some legal trick that will get Fantino off the hook or more likely, make sure the trial never goes ahead anyway. McGuinty is just looking to provide some appearance of process. It's starting to get close to election time and this suit could drag out until that time. Meanwhile, Caledonia has become a regular item in all the national papers. McGuinty has some serious worries for the next election. He will want to do all he can to bury this one!

Looks to me like your point would be even stronger with either of the other two choices! "In addition, 26 per cent of respondents approve of the way New Democratic Party (NDP) leader Jack Layton is doing his job, while 17 per cent feel the same way about Liberal leader Michael Ignatieff."

The point was not that the OPP never, ever did anything! If they fail 100 times and respond once properly that "once" doesn't prove anything, except that the protesters for once let cooler heads prevail. I have family that are OPP out there. They've told me straight out what they have been forced to do by orders from "on high". If they speak out or refuse, there goes their job, career and pension. They'll be mowing lawns to feed their kids. Law officers should not pick and choose which laws and when they will enforce them. It's a pity that the Chatwell and Brown settlement has a gag order. McGuinty finally smartened up. It was obvious that as things played out in court it would politically have been very damaging. Actually, the fact that the settlement IS under a gag order is quite telling! What possible reason could there be except to protect the government from embarrassment? Any Canadian who has been following the Caledonia issues in the papers can't help but wonder if the OPP would be there for them, if they were in a similar situation. If it was a car accident the chances are very good. If it involved native protests it likely would be a different story. That is as plain as day and as obvious as the sun coming up in the morning.

What do you mean by "you are not..." "your...Morton", etc? I live in Ontario! In my whole life I only spent one long weekend in Alberta, during my honeymoon! Like I say, ad hominem and all personalities...

But they weren't there for the citizens of Caledonia, particularly those who spent 4 years "behind the lines" and who just had their house bought out to end their lawsuit against McGuinty's government and hush it up! That's the point!

Interesting. We're getting conflicting stories. Have you noticed any differences between different parts of town, perhaps those farthest away from the disputed areas being less affected? My sources are with ReMax. Maybe it's just ReMax that's doing poorly.

No, BB. The chain he's yanking is YOURS! He's a TROLL, for pete's sake! You can't win an argument with a troll! No matter what facts or reason you come up with he will just ignore or twist them in a way designed to provoke and frustrate you. What your poll has actually shown is that a majority of others can see that. Sadly, he's still got your chain in his hand! Why don't you just put him on your "ignore" list and let him go? Life's too short to waste your time. There are lots of people on this board who can disagree but give a good argument. Spend your time debating them! Debate is supposed to be a search for truth, not an opportunity for some adolescent personality to get his kicks by tweaking others' noses. You keep giving him all the attention he could ever want! He's been having himself a great time! Why don't you just walk away?

Sounds to me like you're explaining why the people who DON'T vote PC care about Ed or Ted! You still haven't said anything about the fact that a party's support base feels one way and the party left them behind by swinging in a very different direction. You keep talking about figureheads, about people supporting this man or that man, as if they were all Jim Jones followers bellying up to the KoolAid pitcher. In my opinion, such a view rarely has any connection to reality. At least, not since the days of Trudeaumania. Charisma can be important but we have LOTS of boring PM's and provincial premiers. From what I've seen in the media, there's no way on earth you could claim that Ed has had the same approach to governing as did Ralph Klein. That may please you if your own values are more "left" but so what? That has ZERO to do with how all the people that liked things the way they were feel about continuing to support the PC's! Ed is a lefty's dream! A PC party premier that governs like a lefty! So even though your leftwing choice may never win, at least the guy who did win will govern that way anyhow! This is just playing political games to ensure that people who disagree with you have no electoral choice. It's like the federal situation, where those of us who supported Reform now find that the CPC is the same as the old PC's, that we had bailed on twenty years ago! We continue to vote CPC not because we like them but because we dislike the other guys more! Sometimes you can get away with it but it ALWAYS breeds resentment and encourages the growth of new parties, like Reform and now Wild Rose. Frankly, I'm very surprised that Ed and his backers actually thought they could get away with it in a province like Alberta!

Interesting. "Perogies" are legal but not "right", which upsets voters. Sounds an awful lot like my longstanding argument that a coalition would have been legal but not "right", which would've upset voters.

Isn't that interesting? All the talk from folks denying that the SN protests have hurt real estate values in Caledonia yet here is a perfectly good home being demolished. Obviously no one ever expected it could be resold. What a waste! Anyhow, my sources tell me that Caledonia is indeed the armpit of real estate sales these days! I feel sorry for all those ordinary folks that have had their life's equity severely hit.

Yeah, things have progressed to the point where it cannot be denied that Harper has taken a hit. Now we have to see if the hit sticks! After all, it's one thing to get mad at Harper over a single issue. Give it a few weeks and the anger fades. Everyone understands that he is a politician, after all! Getting upset over "perogies" is one thing. Deciding that Ignatieff is therefore a better choice is quite another. Most of us are used to holding our noses when we vote. We never get a good fit for a choice at the polls. Just whoever smells the least. Harper may be in need of a shower but so far Ignatieff hasn't turned into a rose! The next few months should be interesting...

The actions of one man are enough to totally kill a political movement? I'm not in Alberta but I find it hard to believe that the entire Wild Rose party lives or dies on the fortunes of Ted Morton! I had the impression it was all about philosophy and principles, that the PC's under Ed had swung left but much of their membership remained where they were! Sure seems like Ed's folks made a big marketing mistake to me. You may not like their principles but that doesn't change how they think! Once again, I'm struck by how the left tends to deal with individuals and personalities, demonizing specific opponents in their arguments, often with ad hominem attacks. The right tends to deal with principles, sharing an overall philosophy. This is a generalization to be sure but there does seem to be something too it. A person of the "right" would likely never conceive of "following the leader" like sheep. It's their individualism that brings them to more right wing parties. It seems to have been specific actions on the part of Ed's government that upset them and caused them to pull their support. It's obvious that Ed and his people misread the feelings of their support base and because of that they have lost much of it. It will take more than Ted Morton to get it back! Maybe they had their own agenda and thought they could "steer" their membership. Maybe they were just arrogantly ignorant. Who knows? Whatever they did, they have paid a price. Even if they hang on to power next election it likely will be with nowhere near the majorities they have historically enjoyed. It's interesting to watch a party in power create its own opposition!

Actually, they only balanced the deficit. The actual debt keeps increasing. We haven't been debt free since Pearson's time. Or more simply, we're so far in debt we have to look up to see our ass but it's ok, we earn just enough to handle it! Sure hope we never lose our job or sumpthin', eh?

Funny you should mention that! Down Welland way is a company called Lakeside Steel. They were formerly part of Stelco and wound up sold off and on their own a few years back. Lakeside buys steel from Stelco and has been desperate for product. That was what got them to look behind the curtains to see where was the holdup. When they realized what was going on they announced to the feds and whoever was involved that if the courts were to decide that US Steel had broken their agreement and the feds wanted to dissolve the buyout then Lakeside was prepared to put in a bid for the steel mill themselves! This would return the mill to Canadian hands and also restore the plant to full production almost immediately. This must be very tempting for Harper's government. The upside is obvious. Where is the downside? It would send a strong message to foreign owners to keep their word. It might deter some unscrupulous buyers but so what? They tend not to act in a positive manner for Canada anyway! Nothing to lose there! Those companies with integrity will continue to operate and buy Canadian operations, since they had no intention of pulling any shenanigans anyway. They probably would find what happened to a company like US Steel rather amusing. People from elsewhere often don't realize that the Hamilton demographic is hardly locked to the Liberals and NDP. It's true that they have enjoyed most of the time in office but Hamilton has elected Tories before and there often are some close races. Standing up to US Steel won't guarantee anything for Harper. After all, union membership in Hamilton has been plummeting for years as manufacturers have left town. The steelworkers were never as much of an NDP block as the NDP claimed but with fewer of them there's less potential for Harper anyway. Still, it certainly wouldn't hurt! There is a chance for some gains, at least. There has been a slow realization in Hamilton these past few years that they have left themselves with literally no representation with the ruling party. By voting in all those Liberals and NDP MP's there's no one with any power to actually DO something for the area! The mayor has been reduced to sucking up to a Tory MP from down Niagara way, for lack of anyone else. Politically, none of this speaks to rapid changes but the trends are real and slowly growing. Meanwhile, as far as US Steel is concerned, perhaps they've drawn attention to a weakness in our Foreign Investment Policies to the point where Harper might decide to use it as a political tool.

Hey, I'm not claiming that Harper's not taking some lumps. I'm just saying that there's no signs that more people are looking at the other parties as a better choice! This poll is a snapshot of people's feelings, at this point in time. It's not about their voting intentions. It just shows they're PO'd with Harper right now! The big question is still unanswered. Will it change their vote? Is some extra MP vacation enough to do more than just tick them off? Harper has ticked folks off lots of times, especially me! However, when it comes time to check off the ballot one has to consider if his faux pas are major or minor and compare them to the other choices. I still say that Ignatieff desperately has to find something on which to hitch his star! We never see or hear much from him these days. Lots of finger pointing at Harper but nothing to make his own star glow brighter. To be fair, it's always hard when you're in Opposition and don't have as much opportunity but still, that's his challenge. If he doesn't find a way to do it, Harper is STILL going to win the next election, if only by default!

Interesting. Harper seems to be a man of extremes. He can be very good for a long time and then make an unexpected blunder that really hurts him. Still, time will tell if this issue has any legs with Canadians at large. When I hear people talk about it I hear complaints that MP's are getting a longer vacation. This might get people angry for a short time but it's nothing like an Adscam scandal! As I noted in another thread, while "perogies" have hurt Harper's numbers they haven't helped Ignatieff or Layton at all. We should know better in a few weeks. I still think that the issue can easily be turned back against the Opposition parties. If it's all such a big deal then why don't they force an election over it? Telling Canadians that Harper is eating all their kittens while they're not looking but the Opposition understands that the people will cheerfully give up their kittens to a horrible death as long as we don't have an unwanted election is really starting to stretch the malarkey a bit too thin. They may be handing Harper a hammer to be used against themselves.

Interesting how the article mentions that while the Tories have been hurt there has been no gains in the Liberal or NDP numbers. This tends to confirm my oft-stated belief that it's not enough to make your opponent look bad. You also have to do something to make yourself look like a better alternative. I guess Ignatieff and Layton are still learning...

This is all happening in my town, BC. It's all very simple. Stelco was on the block and US Steel made a bid. They won the deal, taking all manner of government grants and stuff thrown in to keep jobs in the community. Nothing new here - it's been done from here to El Paso and back many times, with a significant stop in Pittsburgh. As soon as they took over the new American management team tried to make huge changes overnight to run the plant identical to their American operations. Much of what they tried to do was specifically against their union labour contract. The new management's attitude was "who gives a crap?" There was a lot of bad blood developed before things simmered down. Classic case of arrogant new foreigners assuming that although they were operating in Canada they could ignore Canadian law. Not a good way to make a first impression. When the "Great Depression" hit everywhere US Steel closed down the main plant and eventually laid off most of the other one they had bought in Nanticoke. At that point no one argued about it. The recession was global and what else was to be done? What triggered this conflict was Obama and his "America First" laws. People noticed that US Steel was re-opening American plants but there was no sign of anything happening in Hamilton. What made it so obvious was that several customers of the Hamilton plant were begging for steel yet the Hamilton plant was kept closed. It was obvious that it didn't matter. Hamilton was not going to be put back on line until every American plant had re-opened first. That was when the feds were contacted and Clemente, the Industry Ministry got ticked off. They had kicked in all that money in good faith, in the face of all of US Steel's promises. To be now put last on the list out of blatant protectionism was frankly, insulting! A global recession is one thing but ignoring contracts out of favouritism is quite another. The agreement US STeel had signed with the feds was taken out, dusted off and handed to the lawyers for court action. So US Steel kinda brought it all on themselves. I am the farthest thing from a union supporter but I have witnessed this American arrogance at Canadian companies they have bought before. The feds are not just playing legal games. They know full well the politics of the situation. US Steel pissed off its workforce as soon as it took over and then played favourites about which plants would be restarted. They handed a huge hero biscuit to Harper's government! A lot of people that ordinarily didn't vote Conservative in Hamilton are feeling more kindly these days. US Steel was simply arrogant and stupid, in my opinion! It reminds me how years ago I attended a seminar on how to avoid having a union formed in your company. I've never forgotten how we all opened the binders given to us and in huge letters on the front page it said "DON'T ASK FOR IT!"

It's not "conservative disdain", Wally! It's mine! I'm not a conservative. I wasn't thinking of "anyone with an education". To me, education means physics, math, chemistry and the like. I've met who I consider educated people in other disciplines but not enough of them to give the benefit of the doubt carte blanche to every "artsie" I meet. I make up my mind after I've met them, on an individual basis. If you can't accurately describe how a light bulb or an electric motor works, when both devices have been around for going on a century and a half, then how can you consider yourself educated? When I made the comment, I was thinking more of the "B" Ark from The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy. The groups you cited reminded me of the "politicians, beauticians and telephone sanitizers" who were wandering on their own, wondering when the other Ark carrying the engineers, scientists and technicians was going to show up.

I cite Godwin's Law.