Wild Bill

I see. I must be missing something. Obviously things are subject to different rules if done by Liberals.

So you're saying resources aren't a provincial responsibility? That the feds can do what they want with them?

Didn't that violate our Constitution?

Yes and no, Scouterjim. "A cash grab for Ontario" may have been the official reason but that's not the way things actually worked out. I remember those times. PetroCan was always the first to raise prices and the last to lower them! I boycotted PetroCan from day one. What I found particularly offensive was that here in the East there wasn't a drop of Canadian oil in a gallon of PetroCan. It all came from Libya and Venezuela. The NEP never saved an Ontarioan a penny! The extra profit always went to Ottawa. Supposedly the money "trickled down" but nobody could ever see that happen.

I think I'm beginning to see your position,Waldo. Since sometimes I support Tory positions or situations, that would make me an absolute Tory supporter. That I don't often support "the other guys" must prove your premise! You know, I would cheerfully support positions or situations championed by one or both of the other parties. It's just that they propose even fewer that I can agree with than the Tories! Especially since they tend not to propose much specific of their own. They just keep knocking anything done by Harper's bunch. I've said before, show me a Liberal who acts like a classic Liberal and I very well might vote for him! Sorry if I'm not simplistic enough to share your sense of partisanship...

It's not hard to see, Betsy! The Tories did their campaign funding reporting to Elections Canada according to one interpretation of the rules. If you google up the rules and wade through them you can see how an argument could be made that they were in the right. Elections Canada disputed their accounting, however. They disallowed a big portion of the deductions and found that THEIR interpretation showed the Tories had broken the rules in how they transferred monies from the Party Campaign HQ and the accounts of some individual ridings. The Tories refused to accept EC's verdict and basically said "Take us to court!". EC obliged! The court sided with the Tories! This put EC's nose out of joint. They weren't used to being defied. They immediately launched an appeal. Why not? They have access to all our tax money so they didn't have to care how much it cost them! So the case is under appeal, but meanwhile EC is still bitchin'! And of course, the Opposition is using the situation to throw crap on the Tories. It should be noted that charges under the Elections Canada Act are NOT criminal charges! Of course, that's not going to slow down the Opposition critics any... It's not much of a scandal but hey, the Tories don't offer much in the way of scandals. Not because they are that much more honest than the other guys (although they've never actually stolen from taxpayers like the Liberal Party did with AdScam) but just because they are BORING! All Canadian political scandals are boring but the Tory ones always seem to be the MOST boring! Like having your weekend party planned by accountants. Even the Maxime Bernier scandal was just a tempest in a D cup... The Opposition parties will take whatever scandal they can get. Might not be much meat on the bones but it's all they've got and besides, if they can dig up enough of even little ones maybe it will help make voters forget some of their own BIG ones! This is why most voters aren't paying attention, Betsy. It's obviously not a criminal case but a difference of opinion of the rulebook. Eventually a court will decide who is right and who is wrong. The Tories don't need to care. They will either be vindicated or they will be able to rightfully claim it was an honest mistake. Lord knows they have enough money to pay any fines! Why couldn't Canada have some real juicy scandals, like that Italian PM? Somehow, I just can't see Harper in those shoes. If he WERE to wear those shoes, they would likely be just a pair of brown loafers and the women involved would not be underaged sex stars but more likely middle-aged accountants...

Here's one where we agree, Whizzer! Oil has been turned into just another commodity on the stock exchange and thus disconnected from much of the reality of the situation. If the perception of the moment is that the supply of oil is in danger it doesn't matter about the fact that Libya is less than 2% of the supply. The perception is enough to send the price soaring on the stock exchange, like that of copper or the stock price of a drug company. I also agree that this is the result of deliberate policy, and not just those of the American governments. Our own and that of many other countries has done the same, in order to allow well connected friends, supporters and even some politicians themselves the chance to make a pile of money!

Well, that's what makes us different, BM! I was a comic book fan since I was a kid. I even remember how Captain America re-debuted in the 60's. I totally agree with Steyn on the differences in focus between the two eras! The Nazi era stories did have clear targets and a clear sense of right and wrong. Patriotism as a belief that America's values were superior to that of fascism and that of the Axis powers was strong in those comic book stories. It was a time when the bad guy always wore the black hat. Marvel Comics in the 60's was a new wave in the industry, which had diminished to a shadow of its former self. Super heroes were almost entirely gone and comic books were pretty much all at the "Archie" and "Mickey Mouse" level, thanks to the efforts of the "Priscilla Goodbody" Comics Code organizations. Stan Lee and Jack Kirby re-introduced superheroes and deliberately wrote stories with moral conflicts. Characters suddenly had real lives with real problems. Spiderman would catch a villain and send them to jail, only to come home and find that his Aunt May needed a doctor and he didn't have the money. Many of these stories echoed America's doubts about itself, particularly later during the height of the Viet Nam war. The X-Men were always a thinly-disguised metaphor for racism and the inner city troubles of the 60's. Just substitute "mutant" for "negro". I watched your clip and thought that Steyn was making a perfectly valid comment about how during the initial years of Captain America the good Captain had far more confidence in himself and his value system than this counterpart of two decades later. America itself had lost self-confidence! Perhaps America and western society needed a healthy dose of self-introspection but I believe Steyn is bang on when he talks about how it has gone on too long and too far, to the point where we start to give moral equivalency to some pretty savage cultures. America's culture (and ours!) is definitely superior to many fundamentalist Islamic cultures! One might ask "By who's yardstick? That's a relative opinion!" The answer is "Our own!" And that's all we need! For if we don't have confidence in ourselves and our own culture, we will not be strong enough to resist the aggression of some other! Steyn was really just mocking the old liberal cliche of how all cultures are equally valid, including those that stone women and practice genital multilation! HIS Captain America would never even consider accepting Sharia Law as morally equivalent to America's own!

Gee Jack, McGuinty said the HST would create 600,000 jobs. His "green" electricity policies were going to create 50,000 jobs. He's pulled a lot of such numbers out of his butt while he's been in office. Sorta makes me wonder how there can be any unemployed workers LEFT in Ontario!

I think you are quite right about this, August! Historically, Quebec has shown that it would go along with any obvious majority movement. Look at how well Mulroney did in Quebec and then later how Chretien was able to put a lock on so many Quebec seats. Quebecers seem smart enough to realize that an opposition party can't do anything for them. That might seem to be a bit weak when you consider the success of the BQ but even there, it's not so much that they are an opposition party as the fact that the Bloc is always large enough to ensure "bribery" to keep Quebec from separating. It boils down to Quebecers vote for what's best for Quebecers. If it looks like Harper is going to get a majority then it is certainly reasonable to expect a LOT of last minute support from Quebec voters!

You don't seem to understand Westerners at all, Jack! They DID have a problem "taking the money"! They had a strong work ethic and wanted a job, not "welfare". Their frustration came from continually seeing Ottawa changing the game every time they seemed to start creating real jobs so that they'd get knocked down again. After all, they weren't even allowed to grind their own damn grain! Ottawa set things up so that would be illegal! They had to ship it back East so that Ontario could make the profits. You may be quite right when you say "they will never be happy". If that's true, however, why should they stay in Canada? You remind me of a guy having problems with his wife. When she says she's unhappy you tell her "Suck it up!". Then, you're totally surprised and shocked one morning when you find that she's left you! It's the sad but honest truth that Alberta would do far better as part of the USA, or even alone, than it has for most of its history with Canada.

So who cares? I don't think Harper will lose any sleep over losing your recognition. I think the BQ are a bunch of traitors but they're still there!

Turkeys? You're too kind, Molly! However, this whole thread is really just emotional venting. So some folks don't like Harper and/or his party. What else is new? <yawn> The fact is that Harper IS the PM! What's more, the Liberals AREN'T and won't be after the next election either! The biggest factor that saves Stephan's ass is Ignatieff! As I've said before, some polls asking who makes the best PM not only have Ignatieff score dead last, he gets beaten out by "None of the Above"! Add in the fact that Layton is a pseudo-intellectual, arrogant flake and we are faced with the sad, simple truth: WE HAVE NO DECENT LEADERS, FROM ANY PARTY! IMO, anyone who can't see that is a blind, partisan hack! Now, perhaps in another post I'll tell you what I REALLY think!

I don't know why people are so worried that gas prices will go up! Maurice Strong and the Liberal Party of Canada promised us decades ago that PetroCan would always protect us! Speaking of BP, how much did the Liberals pay for BP when they formed PetroCan? That's the best kept secret in Canadian political history! I hear even the Auditor-General fears being shot from a grassy knoll if she ever even TRIES to find out!

Your points are all fair comment. So what? Any salesman quickly learns that it's not enough to knock your competitors. The customer also needs to hear more positive reasons to switch to YOUR product or service! Otherwise, he tends to stay with "the devil he knows". Right now, polls consistently show that the majority of Canadians put Ignatieff LAST as who they think would make the best Prime Minister. I saw one poll where he came after "None of the Above"! So that's one reason unavailable to a Liberal salesperson. Also, like it or not, AdScam is just not old enough to have been forgotten. It stiil detracts a fair number of voters, especially in Quebec. So if your strategy is just to knock Harper and his Tories, guess what? You're gonna lose! The Liberals desperately need a more charismatic leader to help people to forget all the past sins. They have to seize the flag as far as being the party of new ideas, while making Harper's bunch look stale and old-fashioned. It's amazing the Liberals haven't been able to do much of this already, considering Harper's public personality makes an accountant look like Alice Cooper! To me, it seems the real problem with today's Liberal Party is that nobody with REAL power and REAL resources behind him or her WANTS the job! All the "big knobs" (techie term for high-placed 'suits') have known since Paul Martin's demise that it was going to take a few terms before their party would have another shot at power. None of them were interested in being the leader of an opposition party. IMO, the NEXT election should start to show a more interesting fight! Enough time would have passed and the Tories would have been the incumbent party long enough to start to look boring. (Actually, they look rather boring right now but Ignatieff looks so boring you'd have to poke him to make sure he's alive!) I expect some REAL Liberal candidates to emerge and fight for the party leadership! It should make for a fun show! However,this next election is gonna be a "snore-fest"!

I don't follow your logic, GH! At the time, the US used Agent Orange as a defoliant. It would kill broad swaths of jungle vegetation, leaving the Viet Cong nowhere to hide. Are you saying that was the only result they thought they'd get from AG? Or are you implying that they were using it to try to turn all Viet Cong into pollution mutant monsters? Occam's Razor would suggest that they were simply trying to kill the vegetation. Turning the enemy into mutants takes too damn long.

Don't be sorry, Army Guy! It needed to be said! We DO expect the US to afford us defence on the cheap while still expecting to be taken seriously on the world's stage. We are BUMS, pure and simple! Our governments, primarily Liberal, deliberately chose to make us into BUMS! We send our brave lads and lasses out with trucks whose wheel rims collapse because they're so old they've rusted through, with arctic camo for an Afghanistan campaign, with no air support, bumming rides from other countries while we dither about buying new weapons and war machinery that our troops won't see for years! It's disgraceful! While I take great pride in the bravery and quality of our troops I take no pride in how Canada has stood behind them. Bows and arrows against the lightning - and often even the bows are obsolete! Hell, even our tanks are leased, not owned!

One would think so! Although the danger of Agent Orange was not known at the time, that doesn't mean squat as far as legal culpability! If it was the government at the time that made the decision then they were responsible, even if we only find out about victims today. Ignorance or good intentions don't change things if someone was hurt. It was Bill Davis, the Progressive Conservative, who was premier at the time. That's who takes the initial blame. The government is the government, despite if the ruling party changes, so it would be McGuinty's government who will have to pay compensation. Or Hudak, if things change!

Does this man give anything to back this claim up? Why on earth would the Americans agree to no penalties AND be willing to give access to Canadian firms to contracts for F-35 components? What could possibly be their motivation? Charity? Or the value they place on eternal friendship with the Canadian Liberal Party? This makes no sense at all! MAYBE we could skin out of cancellation fees but I find it impossible to believe that they would still cut Canada in on a piece of the manufacturing pie, considering we were putting diddley squat into the baking of the pie at that point!

I see. It's the evils of corporations. All such troubles stem from those nasty capitalists! Once again we are reminded of the difference between classic and modern liberalism. So much for "laissez-faire". I guess we really just have two socialist parties - one pink and the other showing just a broad hint of rose...eh! (sorry, couldn't resist the pun!)

Well, if that was the case, why did the Albertan economy collapse immediately after the NEP was enacted? Why did all the oil rigs pull out? Why did the Calgary commercial office space vacancy rate jump to nearly 33% in just a few months? Why did so many people lose their jobs and their homes? If this was an example of "all about attaining it's unbelievable potential..." then you and I have very different bench marks with which to measure. I have this vivid mental picture of PET addressing the laid-off workers in Calgary, wearing a Jedi robe and with ears like Yoda, saying "Just DO! There is no TRY!"

You're entitled to your ideas and opinions but when you cross that mental line where you are convinced that they are all absolutely gospel...the crazy man never questions his own sanity! Anyhow, at the time of the NEP, Alberta WASN'T a "have" province! They were trying to become one and the Liberal government of the day destroyed that hope. It's taken them over a quarter of a century to recover. Tell you what! We both agree about Dief and the Arrow. Why can't we both accept that the NEP screwed Alberta?

For the thousandth time, I'm NOT a Conservative! You modern Liberals are so vague, wishy-washy and opportunistic in your ideology that you can't even recognize a classic Liberal anymore! I started off voting Liberal. My first vote cast was for Trudeau. I didn't move my political position. The Liberal Party did! Trudeau started its movement away from its roots and subsequent leaders have just accelerated it. After nearly 40 years I've given up seeing "the right reason to rejoin "the Big Red Tent". I wouldn't turn my nose up if it happened but I'd be a fool to hold my breath. I'm speaking the truth when I say that I support Harper only because his party smells the least! They all smell but the Opposition parties really reek as far as I'm concerned. IMHO, the Liberals are about as principled as an ambulance-chasing lawyer. The NDP are still too socialistic for my tastes. The Conservatives are really not much different from the Liberals but at least they haven't been caught stealing any money from us! They also seem to be trying to give our soldiers some modern weapons, instead of sending them out with Lee-Enfields against better-armed third world countries. Not much overall but enough for me to tip the scales. You seem to have a more "digital" view, i.e. "on or off". You like the Liberals. You don't like the Conservatives. That's about as deep as it goes, it seems. In my world view, it's entirely realistic to see deep flaws and virtues in ANY party! If and when the Liberals finally get their act together I could be pleased to vote for them but as I said, I won't hold my breath. I've been waiting too long to have much confidence it's going to happen before this election! Finally, I could NEVER vote for Ignatieff, unless Harper got caught in a child molestation scandal or something else ludicrously unlikely!

You're absolutely right, August! Liberals seem to be more of a church than a party. They keep looking for some Messiah to lead them back to glory! They no longer talk about ideas. It's all about how they CARE more than the other guys, they're more CANADIAN than the other guys, they FEEL more for the average Joe than the other guys and so on. Meanwhile, they just keep making ad hominem attacks on their opponent, as in "Harper doesn't CARE about the little guys! He doesn't FEEL what the average Joe feels!" It's all sizzle and no steak. Even when they pick intellectuals for leaders like Dion and now Ignatieff, we really don't see practical and positive ideas. Rather, we are sold the idea that their leader is so smart that he will just figure out whatever is necessary. No need to actually hear his ideas, just trust that he will have them and they will be good ones! They ARE rapidly becoming the party of just a few (albeit large) urban areas! Take away the GTA, Ottawa and Montreal and they have little or nothing else to count on. This is really a shame! They owe it to Canadians to actually get off their collective asses and become a true government-in-waiting. Harper is far from our best choice but the Liberals just keep abdicating any role as a better one! If I were a Liberal right now, my biggest fear would be that the NDP would get out of the 1960's and become a modern party like the Labour Party in Britain. If they just got a bit more practical and stopped scaring away business and only soliciting support from unions and fringe-issue groups they could conceivably steal away huge blocks of Liberal supporters! The Liberal Party could become the tattered rump it became in Britain!

You're right, Jack! They DO! Of course, this has condemned the Liberals to be a regional party for generations. After you get a few chuckles out of watching their heads explode, do you think it might actually be good for the country to find a way for them to get some confidence in the system back? When you lose your job and your house because some politician wanted to grab more votes in Eastern Canada you can't really blame them for being pissed for a LOOONG time!