jennie

It definitely should.

I would assume so since it is the feds setting it up. Canadian law is ok, if it is followed.

That's right. I had forgotten that.

Actually the third option exists now too ... after three years of fruitless negotiations with the feds, the Tribunal will adjudicate the claim, so I hear.

Jim Prentice

Absolutely, and any who wanted to have done so. Makes you wonder though, if they are not citizens of Canada and they have to renounce something else ... what can they be renouncing ... except sovereignty?

It is hard to acknowledge that we've been fed a biased account of our history, eh? War is not an option that Canadians will allow. It would just be stupid when the law is all we need. All Canada has to do is uphold the law. Simple.

You don't know that because nobody knows the facts until the negotiations for each piece of land are completed.

They choose not to. You see, everytime they leave a piece of land the government steals it.

There is a precedent just set ... the federal government got sued for failure to consult. The feds lost. http://www.cbc.ca/canada/north/story/2007/...wt-cameron.html Ka'agee Tu First Nation wins federal court fight Last Updated: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 | 2:58 PM CT CBC News The Ka'agee Tu First Nation in the Northwest Territories says the federal government and industry should take more steps to co-operate with First Nations, after a Federal Court sided with them in a dispute with Ottawa. In a ruling Friday, the court said the government violated the Ka'agee Tu's right to meaningful consultation when in 2005 it approved Paramount Resources' application to drill several new oil wells in the Cameron Hills area. The Ka'agee Tu, also known as the Kakisa First Nation, had raised concerns about the proposed expansion in the Cameron Hills, its traditional hunting grounds and source of drinking water. "The court has clearly ruled that Canada can't make unilateral decisions about major industrial projects on aboriginal lands without, in any way, addressing or dealing with the affected aboriginal communities," Tim Howard, a lawyer representing the First Nation, told CBC News on Monday. "It seems that Canada needs to keep learning that lesson, and we hope that they'll finally take it to heart this time." It was a second significant court victory for the Ka'agee Tu in its battle against the Cameron Hills development.

There is an old mine there, tailings, old drilling sites, and of course blowing up bombs on the property doesn't help either. No I don't know the exposure levels, just that they found testing equipment and records and obviously people who were working on the site were monitoring.

Another possibility is that they will purchase service for some things. This already happens in some cases - education I believe. Health care they have some and would likely purchase service for others, and may already, I am not sure. This, of course would be a beneficial arrangement for Canada since the tremendous debt we have to them can, in part, be paid through providing services rather than cash.

Interesting comparison, but not really relevant. You say "that distinction is gone. Aboriginals have full rights as Canadian citizens" as if it was true. You know it isn't true. They are governed by the Indian Act which makes them 'wards' of the government. They are treated as 'dependents', not as citizens.

Riv your misinformation is really just confusing people, I have to say: The 1841 surrender was the Plank Road lands. There is no point really in discussing this issue, though, when the federal government is soon to present its evidence in negotiations anyway. Wait for the facts, I say. The process that is occurring in negotiations now, plot by plot, is clarification of the facts for every transaction. The government has a position and evidence, and so does Six Nations, and the government gets to be the judge.

Don't play naive, riv. The feds prefer the alternative of 'negotiating' land claims, where the gov has control of the outcome, being both defendant and judge. They are negotiating now. The government will be producing its evidence of surrender in the next couple of weeks, after six months of research. It wouldn't take them six months just to pull out a copy of the surrender, if indeed it was valid. You seem to be confusing 'duty to consult' about land uses with 'obligation to negotiate' land claims. These are separate issues. It is also not clear to me that you understand the processes taking place in regard to the Six Nations matter, since you don't seem aware that they are in negotiations with the federal government for land claims.

Six Nations, for example, had a plan to be self sufficient. It involved leasing certain of their lands and using the money for infrastructure, economic development, "maintenance and care" of the Six Nations people. So what happened to their plan? History tells the tale ... and we all know the story.

I posted an account of this further up the thread, fyi.

I would just add to that, settled areas aside, Ontario continues to illegally occupy Six Nations land, even referring to it as 'Crown Land'. In fact, Ontario continues to develop and use Six Nations land without consent, evading the law according to the Supreme Court.

How are they acting illegally if they are on the land with permission, in your mind? Interesting that the Appeal Court found it important to comment on the outcome of the Judge's injunction - i.e., that the fundamental rights of the Six Nations people to due process were violated. They were not asked to rule on that either, but they found it necessary to comment. Also interesting that the Appeal Court censured Judge Marshall for trying to direct the operations of the police, though they weren't asked to rule on that either. And of course they could not comment on the most critical matter, the matter of the Judge's conduct: As a landowner in the disputed territory, he was in a clear conflict of interest and should have recused himself from the bench, but he didn't. In short, if you were looking for an adequate injunction that would hold up to scrutiny, I wouldn't go to Judge Marshall. And no, riverwind, Six Nations is not acting illegally now.

No. Not quite. It was, in some respects, a war to try to save the Wendat people and their land from the clutches of the Jesuits, and it resulted also from the devastation of disease on their populations at that time. The Iroquois lived both above and below Lake Ontario, though the Europeans mistook those above the lake for Wendat and called them all "Huron". (Wendat and Six Nations (Iroquois) are all Iroquoian peoples.) The Five Nations (Six now) do have ancestral lands in Ontario, that were being used by the Mississaugas by agreement until Six Nations came back after the American Revolution. The government paid some compensation to the Mississaugas (who is going to say no?), but the land was still Six Nations as previously. This is recognized in the Treaty of Albany 1701. Here is an account of the 'war' with the 'Hurons' http://www.nefac.net/anarchiststudyofiroquois In 1634, a plague of smallpox hit the Rotinonshón:ni, halving their population (67) and forcing relocations for the entire five nations as they fled diseased villages. While already engaged in wars with multiple indigenous nations and the French, and with changes to their economy and material technology, it must have seemed an apocalyptic scenario. The Wendat and other nations were similarly affected by epidemic diseases. There were unprecedented calamites for Rotinonshón:ni and Wendat societies, and the cultural tradition of mourning war called for replacement of all the dead through warfare. Natoway combines a number of oral traditions, historical, and archeological research with his narrative of "The Great Epic." In it, he relates that differences in wealth developed among the Wendat, based on the Jesuit policy of only trading with those Wendat who converted to Christanity. Jesuits and Christanity were also blamed for the disease within the community, and some traditional Wendat voluntarily joined with the Kanien'kehá:ka and Shotinontowane'á:ka to attack Wendat converts to Christianity, even going so far as to lead them in battle. (68) Graeber notes the changes in economic structure of the Wendat, but not the Rotinonshón:ni: "Delage argues that among the Huron, new regimes of property and the possibility of personal accumulation, really emerged only among converts to Christianity; among the Five Nations, they do not seem to have emerged at all." (69) Snow has claimed that during the final Rotinonshón:ni campaign against the Wendat in 1648, more than a thousand Wendat fled their villages, and seven hundred were taken prisoner or killed. In the following fall, the Kanien'kehá:ka-Shotinontowane'á:ka army numbered over a thousand men, including adopted Wendat who had been "fully integrated" into Rotinonshón:ni society. By 1651, another group of five hundred Wendat were brought into the Shotinontowane'á:ka nation, but were given autonomous control of their village. (70) The Beaver Wars continued. The Erielhonan, with Kakwa:ko and Wendat refugees among them, were dispersed westward or absorbed into the Shotinontowane'á:ka, Ononta'kehá:ka, and other Rotinonshón:ni nations. (71) By 1657, the Rotinonshón:ni had defeated their Iroquois-speaking enemies to the north and west. Kanien'kehá:ka and Shotinontowane'á:ka went to Quebec to convince Wendat refugees to return with them. According to Snow: “A village of perhaps 570 Hurons was built near the three Mohawk villages that existed there at the time… [A] decade later Jesuit missionaries would note that two-thirds of the Mohawk village of Caughnawaga was made up of Huron and Algonquian captives and adoptees.” (72) Tionontati and Wenrohronon were also attacked, dispersed, and absorbed by the Rotinonshón:ni. The post-dispersal history of the five nations of the Wendat, as described by John Steckley, holds that the Ataronchronnon (Bog) disappeared, the Atahontaenrat (Deer) joined the Shotinontowane'á:ka in an independent community, Arendaeronnon (Rock) joined the Ononta'kehá:ka, and the Atinniawenten (Bear) joined the Kanien'kehá:ka. The Atingeennonniahak (Cord) remained as the sole Wendat nation. (73) In his military history of the Rotinonshón:ni, Daniel P. Barr compares accounts of the conflict and determines that: "Between 1631-1663, the Iroquois attacked the Hurons at least 73 times. More than 500 Huron people are recorded as having been killed during these raids, with an astonishing 2,000--one-fifth of their post epidemic population--captured and deported to Iroquoia. These numbers are likely low-end estimates…. [T]he number of captives taken by the Iroquois during the Beaver Wars was on average two to three times greater than the number of enemies they killed. Both scenarios illustrate that the acquisition of enemy captives to replace Iroquois population losses was the primary factor in the Beaver Wars, which were not a series of conflicts designed to impose Iroquois control over the fur trade, but rather an Iroquois fight for survival, one vast, prolonged mourning war." (74) The descendents of captured Wendat adoptees were fully integrated into Rotinonshón:ni society and treated as equals. One notable example is Joseph Brant, Thaientané:ken, who was descended from Wendat captives adopted by the Kanien'kehá:ka both on his father and mother’s side.

I actually think it is too bad that Tory blew this issue so badly. I think it would be good for the province to fund all children equally, whether in public schools or faith-based schools. Dalton is taking a drumming and Tory could have slid through if he hadn't shot himself in the foot with an issue too complex for him to handle. However, I guess that tells the truth about Tory.

I expect it has to do with the damage to the land for allowing drilling for uranium without consent. Of course then there is also the damage from testing bombs without consent. The entire area is radioactive.

Actuarial studies have shown that in their lifetimes, smokers use no more health services than the average. That is because smokers die sooner, so the health care system saves years of health costs. So forget that stupid argument!

I believe what I see ... and what I have seen is that the federal negotiators will not produce that surrender as evidence, though it is easily available to them. I wonder why they don't use it as evidence? I wonder why, instead, they asked for six months to do the research on the Plank Road claim? That evidence is supposed to be presented at the next negotiation session. Six Nations position now is the same as it was in 1841: The Council minutes show that what was approved was a surrender to lease the properties to provide income for Six Nations. However, some Chiefs were deceived into signing a surrender for sale (which they could not read). A surrender obtained through deceit is not a valid surrender.

Algonquins sue Ont., mining firm over uranium site Tue Sep 18, 11:39 AM OTTAWA (CBC) - Two First Nations communities have launched a $1-billion lawsuit against the province and a $10-million countersuit against a mining exploration company that is suing them for blocking access to a potential uranium mining site in eastern Ontario. The Ardoch and Shabot Obaadjiwan Algonquin First Nations allege that Ontario breached their aboriginal rights and failed to consult them before granting a company mining rights to land they say belongs to them. The land is located near Sharbot Lake, about 60 kilometres north of Kingston. The countersuit against Frontenac Ventures is intended to send a message to the company that launched its own $77-million lawsuit against the two communities in July, said Doreen Davis, chief of the Shabot Obaadjiwan First Nation. http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/18092007/3/cana...anium-site.html Crown's Duty to Consult: Recent case law from the Supreme Court of Canada (Haida and Taku) has confirmed that the Crown has a duty to consult, and if necessary, accommodate Aboriginal interests when it has knowledge, real or constructive, of the potential existence of an Aboriginal right or title and contemplates conduct that might adversely affect it. Subsequent decisions of lower courts have begun to fill in the general framework outlined by the Supreme Court of Canada. much more here ... http://www.google.ca/search?q=duty+to+cons...lient=firefox-a --- EDIT This post is the Opening Post of a previous thread once titled: Algonquins sue Ontario, mining firm over uranium site subtitled: $1-billion lawsuit against the province which is no longer accessible as a separate thread. As with all merged threads, all of the original posts from all of the threads are preserved and displayed in chronological order.