JB Globe

I hope you're referring to inside the green line and not referring to the West Bank.

So what you're saying is that I should be as concerned about religious parties in Egypt as I am religious parties in Israel, yes? That in both countries they are pushing the state to pursue an irrational and confrontational foreign policy?

So if we're failing miserably and are one step away from the sky falling down in Canada, which country is doing a good job of managing immigration? Any examples?

Call it a coup or not - this is not a full-blown military take over. The military has been reluctant to get involved over the last few weeks, and only really did so now because it looked like this was going to drag out for months if not until september and as days went on the protests were getting bigger and bigger to the point of shutting the entire country down. The economy couldn't take the hit for months on end, also - they knew that things would get ugly fast that every time Mubarak gets set to speak, an even bigger crowd turns up expecting him to resign and then he basically says the same crazy thing: that he's with the people, and because he supports the protesters he can't step down for the sake of the country. It was clear the man was totally out of touch OR was too much of an ego maniac to accept anything but a huge retirement party. Based on the fact that the military has been meeting with the opposition leaders for at least a week now without Mubarak's people present that's a good sign. They've also been speaking with officials in the US, EU and Turkey without Mubarak's people being involved for a while now. I remember one military official even commenting when asked "what is Egypt's military's role in this crisis" - he didn't directly respond, saying there's too many uncertainties, but that he was always an admirer of Turkey's military - Turkey's army of course plays the role of the defender of the constitution and the secular order, stepping in when a government gets too authoritarian in order to clean things up and restore the constitution. They appear to be doing just that, having meetings to revise the articles in the constitution that Mubarak wrote in when he took over to give him the "legitimacy" to impose a semi-police state. Frankly, if Egypt goes the way of Turkey, it will be a huge improvement for the region. While I was there, that was the one country people seemed to really aspire to be like, even if they held a grudge against the old Ottoman empire for it's foreign policy.

I didn't say it wasn't permissible, I just said your opinions aren't worth considering, given your record of trolling.

Where do you think the 350 000 national police force disappeared to in the last few days? They showed up with knives and sticks to try and scare people into going home. Some "pro Mubarak protestors" have already been arrested by the military and they've found police ID on them. The military needs to start seriously thinking about a coup if Mubarak is now sanctioning violence against peaceful protestors. Get him out, get a transitional government in, and hold elections ASAP. Also - will this finally be the breaking point where Western leaders finally throw Mubarak under the bus and demand he leave? I mean - if not this, than what would it take?

You are. Trolling is in the method, not the word count. My main purpose here isn't to "teach those anti-American Canadians a lesson / play the role of the ugly American that they love to hate" You're a joke, and no one should take you seriously.

No. I've watched the video several times, they don't even say "we want to destroy Israel" (not sure where you got that, give me the time on the video if I missed it) what they say is: "Israel is supporting Mubarak" "Israel controls America" "Israel is our enemy" Meaning - that their opinion of Israel is directly related to Israel's support of Mubarak and his regime. And most likely the occupation doesn't help either. So no - I don't think that hating Israel because of it's foreign policy is anti-semitic. Just like I don't think hating America's foreign policy and considering it your enemy because of that policies' affects on you to be anti-American. It's probably a reaction most of us would have, but many here are incapable of empathizing to learn from other perspectives (note: empathzing is not the same thing as condoning)

The key here is - that anti-semitism that does exist is rooted in anti-zionism. Muslims do not have any more of an inherent irrational hatred of Jews than Christians do. It just has been amplified by what has taken place in Israel. I've said this before and I'll say this again - had Christians been the dominant religious group in the region when Israel was created, do you really think Jews wouldn't have had to flee all Christian nations for the new homeland? It's not just an anecdote - it's fitting that the video you posted as an example of anti-semitism didn't contain anyone bashing Jews in general, just Israel. Many Egyptians can make the distinction. Some can't. You could if you want, I'm sure they're pretty horrible. But guess what - things change in 60 years. What vile perspectives? Were you in the room with me? They didn't really say anything that isn't said by a good chunk of the Canadian population. But then again, you think most Canadians hate Jews, because Canada is a lefty country and lefties are anti-Semitic most of the time.

Everyone's laughing at you. Whenever you start loosing an argument you revert to trolling - that's your trademark. Even though you're anonymous, you still act like a coward, THAT is pathetic. Getting bored isn't running away. Trolls always have an over-inflated online ego - it compensates for real life. Trolling is for people who don't have healthy social lives. But who are you to say anything? You just called me a self-hating Jew because I don't conform to your bigoted notion of what a Jew is. Kind of hilarious that this is coming from a black "neocon" who keeps complaining about how people always put words in his mouth and make assumptions about him. As I said earlier, you're a joke - nothing you say can be taken seriously. In some cases I do. Doing Meth is always bad. Self-harming is always bad. And time spent trolling is always time wasted - you could be talking or actually hanging out with friends instead of pissing off strangers, it's way more healthy.

Let's see what this trolling business is all about, since none of what you say is true anyways . . . Stop touching yourself when you talk about passionately contorting. Your mother could walk in. If you thought I was smart I'd be worried. If it ain't broke, why turn it off? Because it annoys you? Who cares? How adorable, it thinks it has it's own little kingdom. I guess you need some kind of control over something to make it through the day. You're kidding yourself. You're a bottom. You still running away? But without people to piss off, than you're all alone, with no one but your mother to tell you that you're special enough to pay any attention to. Naw, what's pathetic is calling someone something and then running away each time they get asked for proof. I mean, I could say you enjoy making sweet, sweet, love to gerbils - but without evidence, that wouldn't be true . . . Would it? You know, trolling isn't half as fun as you make it out to be. It certainly doesn't require any effort or skill. That ish kinda gets old fast - have you really been keeping that up for years? Wouldn't you rather be outside playing sports with all those days of time you've racked up each year? Or seeing friends? Or flirting with women/men? Kinda sad if you ask me.

True, you're not keeping in mind how Christians are treated in other countries You gotta ask yourself - why haven't you heard anything about the anti-Christian pogrom by Hindu fundamentalists, right? (the answer is - it doesn't fit into the narrative that Islam is at war with all other religions, and hinduism is a religion of yoga and peace) The recent bombings in Alexandria were orchestrated by Al Qaeda, not some Egyptian radical movement, there is no widespread popular campaign against Christians in Egypt. That has more to do with the creation of Israel than anything else. Remember - prior to the 20th century you were safer in Arab countries than you were in European countries. And even then, you'd better not be a Jew living anywhere close to the third reich. It took the holocaust for Western nations to finally start to rid themselves of rampant antisemitism. Part of my job is interviewing people, so I know how to not bias a discussion. In each case, I was the one asking the questions, and I refrained from giving them my opinions. Only later on would I answer questions, and the thing is - we didn't exactly agree on much, but they were respectful enough to be able to listen and consider. And yet, they see the difference between Jews and Israelis, and they clamour for the same democratic principles that we take for granted most of the time. Looks like you can't make sweeping judgements after all.

Hating Israel is not the same as hating all Jews. I know you're a hardline zionist so you disagree, but the fact is that these women probably understand the difference between the policies of the state of Israel and the beliefs of the world's Jews. After all, their government doesn't really represent their will either. I was just in Egypt last April with my best friend and his brother, who are Muslim. Folks just assumed because of my beard and tan and because I was with them that I was Muslim as well, some folks would ask me if I was Muslim, I said I wasn't, but I didn't say I was Jewish (because I was being cautious, and I would learn later, too cautious). So when we would start talking politics, eventually Israel would come up, and they'd rail against it's policies towards the Palestinians. But every last person would always make the statement along the lines of: "but I have no problem with the Jewish people, Egyptians don't think like this - your media is twisting words, they think being against Israel is being against Jews" when I would tell them later on that I was Jewish, you should've see their eyes light up with joy, everyone was so unbelievably happy. Most shook my hand again and told me how happy they were that I felt comfortable enough to come to Egypt and to travel without the safety of a package tour. All of them said "please tell your friends to come! Especially your Jewish friends!" They really couldn't stand being portrayed as bigots, and I understand why - Egyptians are very relaxed and carefree, and frankly I don't think most have it in them to harbor abstract hatred against an entire group of people for no real reason. It's pretty sad, considering how incredibly nice even complete strangers were. I had a peak in on everyone's facebook whom I met on my trip after the church bombing - every single one of them had a profile picture of a cross and a crescent together, so did pretty much all of their friends. I think a lot of the fears about Egypt are overblown, and come more from our own assumptions - which are in turn based on an ignorance that assumes every Muslim country is the same, and that every one MUST be anti-semitic or a revolt away from Islamism.

Here's the thing though - you're deliberately obtuse, you toss out inflammatory one-liners and refuse to clarify what they mean, doing a song and dance to avoid actually articulating a rational opinion on anything, and then when we're forced to draw conclusions because you won't explain yourself, you point the finger and say we're putting words in your mouth. You're a troll, and everything is a joke. My only mistake was giving you the benefit of the doubt like I do everyone else and assuming you were for real. Frankly, it's becoming clear that you don't mean anything you actually say. I mean, you've called me elitist about 4 times now, and every time I say: "great, now quote me directly on that and demonstrate, constructing an argument, how I'm an elitist" and you just repeat the accusation. So really, you don't think I'm an elitist, you're just trying to piss me off - otherwise you'd back it up. My motivation for coming on this board when I was a regular for a year or so used to really be about having debates, refining my arguments and learning from other perspectives. Your motivation is simply to piss people off for your own pleasure with behaviour ranging from obnoxious to outright bigotry (No? You don't think you do that? Short memory . . . Making fun of natural disasters in developing countries, or dismissing those people's suffering isn't rooted in bigotry?) You might be playing a character - but that isn't a free pass on racist ish - you wouldn't tolerate some random person making harsh racist jokes about black folks in your presence just because he said he was joking. People who enjoy being a-holes always, always either have problems socializing or feel neglected in some way (ie - no one listened or paid attention when they were a kid) this is absolute basic psychology here, nothing radical. So I get you - you have problems, that's why you post here and do what you do - because it's easier than dealing with your own ish on your own time (of course, nothing gets improved that way either). You can deny this, but posting records don't lie - you're here all the time, you NEED this. On the other hand, I can leave for a year and return only out of curiosity to see if anything's changed, or if people like you are still doing their shtick. So by all means, continue the routine, I'll be gone in a day or two. The records clearly show you need this way more than most of us do.

The army has said it will not fire on demonstrators, and may even have chosen sides with the people against Mubarak, although they didn't say so explicitly, it's kind of the impression I got: The protestors only really have one demand - Go Mubarak. The rest - democracy, economic prosperity, justice - can't really happen until he's gone.

Since you're playing the denial game, let's go over the chronology of events here: 1 - In disagreement with Bob's point that the amount of support coming from the US & Canadian governments for the protestors is pathetic, you say:"I disagree....the pathetic ones are the Egyptians themselves. Live free or die." Meaning - Egyptians are pathetic because they "allowed themselves" to be ruled by a dictator. 2 - I call you out saying colourfully, that it's arrogant and ignorant to pass supreme judgement on a situation you know nothing about, either first-hand or from a historical/political perspective. 3 - You defend your statement that Egyptians are pathetic by saying you have the right to free speech (which wasn't even in dispute), and don't bother to back it up with any sort of analysis or justification. 4 - I call you outfor not backing up your "Egyptians are pathetic" statement in any sort of rational way. 5 - Then you state: "THIRTY YEARS of oppression is PATHETIC...just as I stated." which is the most justification you've given for your comment to date. Since this is the only explanation you've given, after repeatedly questioning you, we have to assume that this is the only criteria that's important to you. So what logical, rational, non-ideological conclusions can we draw from this? . . . - You think that time frame is the most important factor in determining which resistance movements are "pathetic" and which are good. - No other factors matter in evaluating the effectiveness of popular resistance movements (otherwise, you would have given other factors by now, unless you're being dishonest in your argument - but I have no control over that, and there's no way to tell), ie - politics, history, economy, demographics, geography - these do not matter. - We don't know at how many years resistance to a dictatorship goes from being good to "pathetic" but we do know that at 30 years is the minimum amount of time a population has to live under a hardline regime to be considered So we can then say that: - Any popular resistance movement can easily be judged on effectiveness to another since the only criteria used (time frame) is common to each of them. - Any popular resistance movement that took more than 30 years to despose of the regime that they were fighting against was pathetic. (ie - American Revolution, anti-communist movement in Eastern Europe, etc) Let's recap again, since you're playing dumb . . . THIRTY YEARS of oppression is PATHETIC...just as I stated. I went on to point out that the only way that you can use a time criteria as the ONLY criteria to judge a resistance movement (as you did) is if you completely ignored other factors such as history, economy, politics, demographics, etc. I pointed out this is completely irrational - to expand on it: no historian would look back at any social movement in history and just throw away those criteria when evaluating them, just the opposite - those criteria would probably be more important in explaining why things happened than "it took 40 years for the Warsaw Pact to be dissolved, those Poles and Germans are pathetic" So far, you haven't defended your rational, the only thing you have done is claim you never said it. So my question is for the fourth time - why are you only using time as a criteria in judging how "pathetic" Egyptians are - why are all other factors not relevant for you? And by extension, can we now compare popular resistance movements against this "+30=pathetic" benchmark? [ You're on a roll, here you are saying that absolutely nothing you've written in this post has been off-topic. One only needs to go back one page to prove your figure of 0 wrong. I say so according to the logic you used to evaluate Egyptians. I think it's dumb logic, but then again I didn't come up with it. If you don't believe Germans and Poles are pathetic, go ahead and rebut and tell us why they aren't but Egyptians are pathetic. But that would require a rational argument. This is a cop-out - I'm not elitist, and you haven't actually presented an argument that I am. All you're saying is that "you're an elitist because I said so!" But prove me wrong - quote me where I've said "what they can and can't do because of oppression" because I know I haven't said anything like it - because I absolutely refuse to judge Egyptians because I have no idea what it's like to grow up under a dictatorship, and neither do you, which is my entire point about you saying they're "pathetic" I don't know how you go from reserving judgement to me saying I'm telling them what they can and can't do. But enlighten me. How? Quote me. You can continue repeating this line, but it only makes you look like a fool if you don't back it up. Ah, so now you've changed your semantics. Before Egyptians were pathetic because, in your words (which I've already quoted above), other popular movements deposed of dictators in less than 30 years, therefor Egyptians MUST be pathetic if they couldn't do it sooner. Now Egyptians themselves aren't pathetic, just their reality, which of course - you believe they're entirely responsible for creating (even though you support your government backing up the dictator that's been squashing their rights and embezzling money). And why did they leave their country? What do they tell you? Not even. More than 60% of Canadians feel the monarchy is outdated, and that according to a poll commissioned by a Monarchist society. I've yet to meet anyone under 35 who identifies with the monarchy. We don't even mention the queen unless she's blocking traffic for a reception. That's nice, but then again - when was the last time you learned anything from anyone here? You already think you know more about anyone on any topic, so why would you bother to listen, right? Really? So you feel complicit as well? Shame on you for oppressing 80 million Egyptians. My country got to be the most powerful by stepping on lots of nations. Eisenhower's dead. Who is helping the Egyptian public to overthrow Mubarak since he came to power? No one. Instead, Europe and the US and others have been supporting him. Imagine instead of the French helping the US against the British, imagine all of Europe just helped the British - how long would the US have taken to overthrow the Brits? Would it have even happened at all? Wonderful - you're black, I'm Jewish. But we're living pretty good right now, and whatever our ancestors went through doesn't really mean we know what it's like to grow up under a dictatorship. When I hear someone talk about fleeing Vietnam as a kid by walking through the jungle to the coast and hiding in a fishing boat, I don't think "Been there, done that" That's because you started earlier. We still have by far the world's highest immigration rate per-capita, meaning that while you might have more non-white folks, we have way more foreign-born folks per capita. Am I wrong? You've stated before that human rights and democratic principles are nice, but really the US is only concerned with retaining it's status as superpower, and if it can kill two birds with one stone - great. But it's not about to give up power in the name of morals or ethics. So - if you could wipe out a few million Saudis and seize the oil fields with a new nano super weapon, would you?

Actually, your remark was a defence of your earlier comment that Egyptians were pathetic - your criteria was that since other countries have been able to overthrow regimes in less than 30 years, that means Egyptians were pathetic. Meaning - your inherently claiming that all popular uprisings are the same, regardless of political/historical context. So my question still stands - let's see how many times I have to repeat it and rephrase it before you stop pretending it doesn't apply, or before you run away from it completely. Officially, but many were referring to themselves as such. But that's semantics - by your criteria, your founding fathers were pathetic, because it took them longer than 30 years from when they started having grievances to actually kicking out the British, yes? I wrote four off-topic words, you just went on a dozen or so posts about Canadian anti-americanism in a thread on Egypt. So who's being more irrelevant? Then I guess all of Eastern Europe (including half of Germany) is pathetic. If everyone was just more like you, things would be different - the world would be free, wouldn't it? What elitism? Spell it out for me - quote me where I've been elitist. You made the claim, now back it up or runaway from it like you usually do. Key difference between you and me - I don't listen to Egyptians and then pass judgement on them, second guessing what they're saying and making my own assumptions, as if I know what they're REALLY saying, behind the words. - I literally reiterate what they tell me. You on the other hand - call them pathetic, that's called passing judgement, and it demonstrates that you think you know better their reality better than they do. It's kinda gross - these guys are honestly telling you about something that deeply affects them, and you're sitting there thinking "you're a looser, and so is everyone else in your country" You made the claim....happy? How long have you been on this Canadian political board? And you think that Canadians identify with the British Empire? I mean, if you can't even learn something this basic being here for years, what makes you think you have any capacity to learn from the one or two conversations you've had with Egyptians over the years? Actually, they are. Your country is the world's most powerful, it's backing a dictator against the will of its own people. More than that, many other countries are following your lead. The fact that it's taken more than 30 years is directly related to the support you yourself advocate for this regime. You are complicit in this oppression, which is why it's hypocritical of you to place blame for the situation solely on the Egyptian public, when you yourself have responsibility. I mean, the US had France helping it during the revolution - who does Egypt have? By your logic, it appears your founding fathers are more pathetic than Egyptians - no one is helping them. You're confusing your ideology with the rest of your countrymen. Whereas you would have no beef with committing a genocide if it meant another 25 years of American dominance, pretty much every liberal or conservative in your country does.

I love satire.

You can only really come to your conclusion by throwing historical, political, and economic context completely out the window and making the absurd, obviously wrong, and frankly, juvenile assumption that every situation regarding popular uprisings are exactly the same in each country and thus you can compare how "good" they are by the length of time it took to overthrow the government and nothing else. Question - if you handed in a paper in a political science class using this argument, what kind of mark do you think you would receive back? And the thing about your metrics is that they cast most uprisings/revolutions as "pathetic" including your own American one - there was resentment towards the British for longer than 30 years (which was your criteria for calling Egyptians pathetic) before they were kicked out. So I guess your founding fathers were pathetic as well, according to your own logic. Also - channelling Michelle Tanner doesn't add to political debate, usually. It's not rhetoric, it's logic - I thought neocons were creatures of rationality, right? How do you know the lived experience of the other better than the other? That's what you're intrinsically claiming by making the case that the uprising could have easily happened sooner AND overthrew Mubarak, but people chose not to do so. I mean, in order to make that case, you'd have to know the mindset of the people in Egypt, you'd have to know what it's like to grow up under a dictatorship. And seeing as how you don't read anything from Arab authors unless it confirms your worldview (ie - Wafa Sultan) I don't know how you came by even a sliver of this knowledge of lived-experience. So really, you just painted a picture of a landscape that you have never seen, and that has never really been described to you beyond a few adjectives. Oh, and you used crayons. Quote me on where I'm saying anything like that, go ahead - you made the claim, now back it up. Or, do the usual - run away and ignore it because you bit off more than you can chew with false accusations. For the record - calling you out on calling Egyptians pathetic has nothing to do with claiming to know their reality. I've been to Egypt, I talked with many Egyptians there and in Canada candidly about the situation there long before any of this stuff ever happened, and when they tell me something, I believe it as much as I would it coming from an Italian talking about Italian politics. But here's the thing - everyone across Egypt, from college grads, to shop keepers, to Bedouin tribesmen - all say the same thing about this government. Not going to explain what you mean by saying you overthrew my government 200 years ago? Just going to leave that nonsensical statement as is? Finally - are you going to address the fact that while criticizing Egyptians for being pathetic and not overthrowing their dictator sooner, you at the same time support your country funding and backing up that same dictator? Why do you have more of a problem with the timeframe of the uprisings in Egypt, than you do with supporting a leader that stands against the principles your country was founded on and claims to want to advance globally?

Why? And what would you have done differently, being that you know what it's like to grow up and have your entire identity of as an individual formed within an oppressive regime, right? Just how exactly are you able to know the daily reality of someone in a completely different situation than yours better than they know it themselves? Come again?

I think if anything, Israel should be worried about loosing a moral monopoly it's held in the region . . . Namely, it will no longer be a somewhat flawed democracy among dictatorships - and thus be the automatic recipient of all Western support and aid. If Egyptians manage to transform and build their country into a growing democracy, the blank cheque given to Israel on many issues by the US and Canada will become increasingly more difficult to sustain as it won't be the only democracy in the region to support anymore. Because continuing to do so would look as hypocritical as putting an embargo on Cuba and then clamouring for trade with China. We might see those governments stop treating Israel as a "special" ally, and instead treating it as we would any other ally - we support it, but not unconditionally. Or they could just double down and discard the "supporting democracy" rational and just say that they are blindingly supporting Israel to an extreme no other country is deserving of for some other, even more absurd reason.

Explain how Egyptians were inspired by what happened in Iraq. Show me examples of Egyptians looking at a deeply divided and most times ineffective governing coalition and thinking "I want that here" And explain how whatever magical thing Bush did in Iraq negated the fact that he turned a blind eye for 8 years towards Mubarak's continued oppression of his own people and rampant corruption. if someone kept proclaiming non-violence while punching you in the gut, would you take them seriously? Would you listen to them? Because it's pretty obvious to most of us that Egyptians were directly inspired by what happened in Tunisia.

Here's something for you to chew on . . . Under these dictatorships in the Arab World, the only issue that you could publicly protest was Israel, and the only ideology that you could really gather in groups to be a part of was religious ideology. Everything else was banned. Ask yourself if you think there will be more or less rallies against Israel, and more or less Islamism if folks can freely protest corruption and brutality (things which absolutely affect their daily lives) and people can gather and write freely about all kinds of secular political ideologies. I believe that with all these other options on the table, people will automatically gravitate towards things which have the potential to improve their daily lives the most - and in most cases, whatever Israel is doing takes a back seat to police beating a blogger to death who exposed cops taking money from a drug deal and extorting from local businesses.

If you're going to invoke this kind of defense (ie - I have the right to make fun of your mother dying of cancer, therefor it's right for me to do so), after calling Egyptians cowards form the safety of your computer chair - do yourself a favour and don't expect anyone here to think you're anything other than a sad individual who dulls the pain of being socially inept by hurling vitriol at the easiest of targets - those who are oppressed and can't talk back to you. You have absolutely no justification for your comment, and you know it. So don't bother trying to explain rationally why Egyptians are cowards, it's okay. And don't worry, I don't expect you to retract that statement either - I know admitting even the most minor of mistakes is traumatic for you, so please, go ahead with the dance you always to distract from being held accountable for the crap that you write. It's the internet - no one can be brave online, but it is possible to NOT be a coward. I'm talking directly to you, you're not talking to Egyptians - you're bashing them behind their back, when they don't even have the internet and are too busy doing something you'll never in your life do - overthrow a government. So who really is pathetic in this situation?

I've been a member of this site for years, and have never sworn. I did so deliberately, because I felt it was deserving considering his post was probably the most arrogant, cowardly, and ignorant I've read ever read here.