Peter F

Who say's he was fighting with the enemy? Considering his age at the time of his alleged crime, he could very well have been a non-combatant within the compound they found him.

Since these are examples of what happened to the 'loyal' Canadians, I'm curious as to how the 'revolt' of the Americans avoided that. Say the economic power and representation of a state like California as compared to Rhode Island, for example. How are these state's of disproportionate population and economics represented in the USofA government?

Ummm....should Omar first be found guilty of some sort of crime?

Torture is used to terrorize. I couldn't say it better myself. I thought you were trying to say something different - my mistake.

Okay, the enemy torture complex had nothing to do with information gathering. What were they hoping to achieve and why should the USofA use the same technique?

How would I know the information provided was accurate? The whole point of torture is to inflict pain until the tortured says something I want to hear. Torture is used to confirm what is already suspected. In fact, suppose the tortured person says something I have no knowledge of? Why would I believe what he says? The problem with torture is that its impossible to tell truth from fiction. If the tortured tells me the truth how am I to know its the truth? Your 9/11 scenario suggests that I will have no idea what the truth is. Anything the tortured says is meaningless until he says something I want to hear. Even if what I want to hear is wrong and useless. Your scenario assumes that you already know what the truth is and that is how you will know the tortured is supplying accurate information. There is no point to torture. Its useless. Wich is why only arseholes and losers resort to it - It gives them the impression that they are achieving something, making some headway of some sort. Torture has never achieved anything that couldn't have been got otherwise. When has torture ever worked? The only thing torture has ever provided is names - lots of names. But nothing a simple telephone book couldnt provide. Torture is a waste of time and only paints the torturing party and untrustworthy brutes. Its self-defeating. So no, I would not use torture on anyone, even to save millions of people - for the simple reason that the only way for me to know what the victim says is true is if I already know the truth - so why waste time making someone say a bunch of crap.

except you don't know torture is the only way to get the information. The torturer has no idea if the torture will be successfull. Torture is an act of desperation brought on by an inability to effectivly gather information. Torture is the last resort of a loser in the game of intelligence and only serves to create the impression that the torturer is 'dong something'. To resort to torture means the game was lost a long time ago.

Americans, of course.

Goodness. I can barely cut 50% of that. I guess I will have to get some citizenship papers for somebody to burn.

Well, yes, since I am not a felon and pay taxes perhaps I may not be the anchor to Canada's progress that I have been passing myself off as. However, I, like many an immigrant, did indeed collect much from government largesse long before my alleged contributions. But lines must be drawn somewhere I suppose. I just don't like where JBG draws those lines. Contribution is neither here nor there and impossible to measure. So making that a lousy yardstick to determine citizenship.

...or told you what you want to hear

Mission Creep, I think. Things are not as easy as Gen.Hillier thought they would be. The Operations were cobbled together without much thought to the overall picture or where things were going. Thus last minute approvals that Canadian exchange officers or Canadian Naval Officers commanding USN vessels be allowed to contribute to wars that Canada refused to partake in. Or agreeing to take on major roles in Afghansitan thinking Canada could easily find other nations to take over in one or two years time. Unintended results. It isnt body bags but Jack Layton et al realizing that the sun may soon shine and a bountiful crop of political hay lay in the future due to the catch-as-catch can nature of Canadian Foreign and Defence policy, or more likely - lack of policy in Afghanistan.

I understand that. My collecting pogey rubs many the wrong way also. I am questioning the apparent requirement of 'contributing' to justify citizenship.

The very same. JBG: .Thats where me and you differ. I believe that if I can access the cash If I meet certain requirements, then why shouldn't any Somali, Pakistani and/or Sikh? Perhaps the poor of all lands do not have a 'right' to Canadian generosity, but Canadian generosity should extend to as many people as it possibly can. I disagree completely with the contention that because I was born here that I should be entitled to more than others not born here. I already get citizenship no questions asked and an immigrant has to put in some time before being allowed citizenship oaths and swearing in ceremonies. What other rights and privleges should I be entitled to that others shouldn't?

Horseshit. Are you claiming that 'Pacifists' allowed the 9/11 attacks to succeed? That 'Pacifism' allowed China to be Communist? That 'Pacifists' gave up the Panama Canal? That the USofA lacks allies because of American Pacifism? That the USofA's NATO allies and many other Allied nations not involved in NATO are supporting Terrorism? Your contention is absolutely rediculous. There is far more to American History than pacifism. As you well know.

I'm talking about my not contributing a damn thing to Canada and actually, now that you mention it, sucking cash from the government tit in the form of welfare and Pogy for many long years. Yet my citizenship has never been questioned or doubted. Why then the requirement for immigrants to 'contribute' but us non-deportables to not contribute?

And what 'ideology' are we allowing to enter that is comprised of the 'ideology' we are at war with?

I think he recommends going in a spirit of animosity. As a 5th or 6th generation WASP I can honestly say I have contributed nothing to Canada, beyond Taxes. Yet, not a soul has ever questioned my position as a Canadian. It seems there is a serious double standard at work in your mind.

Yes.I believe so...wait. Maybe not. Leafless says Britain shudda done it; You say you thought it was done.

History didn't end for Canada in 1759, JBG.

Actually English is my first language. But thanks for the psuedo-explanation.

What is a 'second-position language and culture'?

You thought wrong, obviously. The only thing the Plains of Abraham decided was France being unable to continue the struggle to hold Canada. What else would you think it resolved?

Yes. So what if OneNoShine has assimilated? If OneNoShine doesn't assimilate what then?

No. Nor as a majority You are sounding like a fool. There is no need or requirement for you to assimilate to anything. You are who you are and there ain't a person on this earth that can change that. There is no need to ingratiat yourself to anyone...least of all us white Canadians. As an aside, since you truly love and appreciate Canadian culture, would you explain Canadian culture to us? You are probably the only person on this website who has any idea what it is.